Incontinence, advice please UD 28th feb

Barney has been weeing himself for a while now. At first it was only occasionally, and not a lot of wee, then it was occasionally and it would be a lot of wee - but I put it down to the fact that he kept weeing outside of the litter tray on the foam tiles, then sitting in it, which he was doing. We saw the vet (a temporary one) and she said it was probably just that, and to keep him clean and try to litter train him properly again.

So I did, and he is now perfectly litter trained again, but it continued, in fact it got much more frequent, nearly every day he is wet underneath, not just a little dribble, sometimes he's soaked, all on his back end and down his legs. So back to the vets last week, one I've seen before this time and she thought it might be an infection, so I went back a couple of days later with a urine sample.

Today I was told that the tests came back normal, no infection. Took him in to be examined, vet checked him for any sign of physical reason or deformity - none. He thinks Barney may be 'leaking' without realising, perhaps a weakening in the muscles there.

I have Propalin Syrup, which is used for incontinence in dogs, to give every 12 hours for 10 days, a low dose he said, 0.12ml, as it can cause aggression and hypertension. I can bathe him with baby shampoo max once a week, but if needed can use salt water daily. He said to stop using wet wipes as I've been doing, and to not use the pet shampoo either, as they could make him sore.

Anyone have experience of incontinence, or the meds? I really know nothing about it.

Im sorry to hear about poor Barney, my bunny is always wet underneath but due to different reasons.

I have experiance of using propalin syrup with dogs, it really did the job and completely stopped them leaking, they were doing it due to old age.

Sorry i cant be more useful but id be interested in what anyone else has to say aswel.

I don't know but wanted to respond. Would vetbed help to draw it away from him? Obviously though if he's seeing on himself rather than sitting in it it's not really going to help. I don't know what to suggest.

Thank you both

Hopefully the propalin will be as successful for Barney as it was for your dog, Vicki

Elena - They are free-range 24/7 at the moment so I'd need a tonne of vetbed! although there are some blankets on the shelves and I've also given them my sheepskin rug which Barney likes to sit on, and judging by some patches on it it has been whisking away some of the moisture. I'm hoping the Propalin clears it up, but if it looks like its going to be more longterm I think I may buy a load of cheap fluffy towels and cover the floor with them, and hopefully that will help. I've also seen a vetbed dog bed in P@H that I'm tempted to get, but knowing my luck he wont lie on it anyway, but will use it as an (intentional) toilet instead!

How is Barney doing now?

Was he tested for EC at all? Did he have any blood tests to look at issues like raised calcium levels? It can be really hard getting to the root of urinary problems, I know because we've had them with Kenco and Muesli. With Muesli in particular it was difficult to pinpoint what was going on. The webinar that Supreme did last year on urinary issues was really useful. We watched it and made lots of notes and took those to the vets for further discussion/investigations.

I've not used propalin so I cant give any advice with that, I'm afraid. But in terms of management, keeping his bottom dry is the most important thing, vet bed is great, but we noticed that with Muesli he tends to wee in certain areas, usually around the perimeter of his run, so we use puppy training pads there that we can change regularly. If he does any on carpet we use vinegar. If he does it on his lino we mop it up as soon as we see it but if he sits in it, or hasnt quite angled his bot away properly thats when he tends to get wet again. We go through quite a few puppy pads which isnt good for the environment or our finances, so we bought some human incontinence sheets/pads and they can go on a hot wash in the washing machine and these are much better as they draw the liquid away from the surface, like vet bed does, but they are plastic backed so it doesnt go through the other side, which was what I was finding with vet bed. You can apply a small amount of sudocrem on any sore bits once he is clean and dry.

He may need extra flystike protection when the weather gets warmer. Hope you can get to the bottom of his problems.

helgalush said:

How is Barney doing now?

Was he tested for EC at all? Did he have any blood tests to look at issues like raised calcium levels? It can be really hard getting to the root of urinary problems, I know because we've had them with Kenco and Muesli. With Muesli in particular it was difficult to pinpoint what was going on. The webinar that Supreme did last year on urinary issues was really useful. We watched it and made lots of notes and took those to the vets for further discussion/investigations.

I've not used propalin so I cant give any advice with that, I'm afraid. But in terms of management, keeping his bottom dry is the most
important thing, vet bed is great, but we noticed that with Muesli he tends to wee in certain areas, usually around the perimeter of his run, so we use puppy training pads there that we can change regularly. If he does any on carpet we use vinegar. If he does it on his lino we mop it up as soon as we see it but if he sits in it, or hasnt quite angled his bot away properly thats when he tends to get wet again. We go through quite a few puppy pads which isnt good for the environment or our finances, so we bought some human incontinence sheets/pads and they can go on a hot wash in the washing machine and these are much better as they draw the liquid away from the surface, like vet bed does, but they are plastic backed so it doesnt go through the other side, which was what I was finding with vet bed. You can apply a small amount of sudocrem on any sore bits once he is clean and dry.

He may need extra flystike protection when the weather gets warmer. Hope you can get to the bottom of his problems.

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The situation doesnt seem to have changed, although maybe a little less leaking, although it is every day without fail. He adores his medicine and takes it very well which is good, he even begs for it :roll:

I really need to get hold of the vet and ask about EC. Problem is I want to speak to the vet who started him on the Propalin and he's hardly ever in the practice so hard to contact, he's always out on call, or if he is in he's seeing patients. I might just find which days he's working next week and pop down during open surgery. Its a small practice you see so only open a couple of hours in the morning and evening, and generally only one vet is there during these hours, the rest is reserved for ops etc.

I'm not too worried that its EC, as from what I've read the incontinence seems to be a secondary symptom, and this is his only one associated with EC, and he's been exhibiting it as his only one for a while now. But it would be worth checking.

He hasnt had any tests done apart from a test for infection on his urine, but I had his renal function tested in the summer anyway as they were testing for something else due to his dipping one side of his face in the bowl when drinking that was proven to be pain based. We never got a answer for the problem, but his blood tests came back fine.

A couple of new possible symptoms... Oddly his drinking funny seems to have come back today, havent seen him but one side of his chin is wet from where he dips it in the water at a funny angle, going to keep an eye on that. Hay consumption has dipped, and although his poos seem good still they are smaller and I've found a couple of stringy ones. He had his teeth checked less than 2 weeks ago and they seemed to be great, you can never quite tell with Barney but its promising.

One of his eyes is starting to run, a sign his snuffles might be about to flare up a bit, and at the moment I'm putting it down to the fact that a side effect of Propalin is hyper-tension, and stress can trigger snuffles.

Thank you for the maintenance tips its not too bad as he isnt really weeing places as such, but rather seems to be leaking without noticing, but I think I'm definately going to have to get some vetbed if this continues.

What do you use to, and how often do you clean the rabbit's bottoms, if you dont mind me asking?

Personally I think it sounds like he may have a Urinary Tract Infection. I know that you have taken a urine sample to the vets, but there are many bacteria that can cause a UTI that can die off with exposure to oxygen, so this could result in a negative reading.

My Inca often gets this dribbling problem, it causes her to be wet down below. She gets a course of antibiotics when she gets the problem and it clears it up. I would recommend speaking to your vets for a course of antibiotics. In my opinion it can't do any harm and may rectify the problem.

In the meantime, for cleaning, I use a dilute iodine soloution (you can use cooled boiled water too). I get the iodine from the vets. I clean Inca with the soloution, dry her off as best I can, then apply sudocrem. This helps keep her skin less inflammed and acts as a barrier against future scaulding. When Inca is bad with wetness I clean her at least once a day.
Inbetween cleans I use an old towel or kitchen roll and simply blot her underneath to draw some of the wetness from her.

Ditto what Kermit said about Urinary tract infection. I'd personally want to treat with baytril in case you've had a false negative when the culture was done. You could give panacur and metacam too

I've used Propalin syrup before, and found it pretty effective, especially when combined with baytril. I didn't notice any side effects.

I washed my bun every day using mild small animal shampoo (the pinky white coloured one from Pets at Home...I don't think they sell that one any more though unfortunately), and then dried her off with a cool hair dryer, then smeared a layer of sudocrem over any sore looking areas. You may need to shave the fur off to stop it holding urine against the skin, or cut it off with nail scissors like I did (being very careful not to cut the skin)

I havent been able to get on here properly recently, so I have an update.

We went to the vet on Saturday, Barney has improved but is still leaking a bit. He's also got a bit of a weepy eye, nothing to worry about just his snuffles playing up. I'm keeping him clean underneath and he doesnt seem to be getting sore thank god, but he does take AGES to dry after a bath, he's indoors. He hates the hairdryer though.

So I've got baytril, 0.75ml every 12 hours and the propalin has been increased to 0.4ml every 12 hours, with the option to increase to 0.75 or 0.8ml (I think) if need be, but he wants to keep it low for now. Both for another 10 days. Barney does seem a little more hectic than usual, he leapt in the air and bit me earlier when he was getting overexcited, and he's being very clingy, but not sure if he's just feeling poorly or if its the meds.

The vet thinks EC is unlikely at the moment, and he didnt think it was worth worming him, I've actually made another thread about this... he said panacur wouldnt cure the parasite anyway: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?328502-Panacur-and-EC

He's been grinding his teeth a few times, I hope its not pain, its not like it was when he had a dental, and although their hay intake has decreased a bit they are both enthusiastic and eating a good amount... not really sure what to make of it, I think I'll have to call the vet tomorrow and see what they think.

Poor yuki has EC and so have toilet issues I wash her when she needs it.

I clean out the buns several times a day to help with her bottom she gets less veggies etc.. then yuri I check her bottom every day other than that I try to but absorbent things down and less things that can get stuck to her as possible

He didnt grind his teeth again so didnt take him back, weird but I guess he just hurt himself kicking out when he was being washed. How do people stop them kicking when bathing them? I'm worried he's going to hurt himself.

We are going back to the vets tomorrow - most of yesterday and today he has been completely soaked underneath, he even got it on top of his tail somehow. Gave him another bath earlier, had to get someone to help me as it needed a thorough one. I think he may have lost even more weight as well -we'll see tomorrow I guess

I dont understand how its getting worse when it was getting better.... Poos are more hard and a bit darker too, maybe the baytril? :?

If the baytril isn't helping, he might have some sort of bladder disease unfortunately.

An xray to check for bladder sludge or stones might be a good idea. The sludge/stones can irritate the bladder and cause infection, inflamation and pain.

abbymarysmokey said:

If the baytril isn't helping, he might have some sort of bladder disease unfortunately.

An xray to check for bladder sludge or stones might be a good idea. The sludge/stones can irritate the bladder and cause infection, inflamation and pain.

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Is there a way of testing for bladder sludge/stones without an xray? I dont really want him going under GA unnecessarily.

His kidney function was tested by bloodtest in the summer and that came back fine, but he does drink a lot, has done since I got him - hence the bloodtest. His wee isnt chalky or sludgy, but was for a couple of months when I first got him and fed him loads of veg everyday. Are there any other symptoms?

Sorry I didnt reply to your question sooner Nessar, I havent been able to get on the forum much this last week.

Sorry to hear that Barney is still having problems. Just to answer the question you asked me about bathing, we use warm water. We were told not to use any shampoos as they can just irritate more. We'd try to get the urine off of their fur gently with cotton wool and water (it would generally take two of us to do this). Then dry thoroughly and gently with a soft towel. Then apply sudocrem to protect and help heal. However sometimes this method was just not effective and we would have to submerge his back end in a bowl, get all the urine off and then dry but its a lot harder to dry them this way, especially if they have thick fur, so we would sometimes have to use a hairdryer on a really slow setting (and obviously not cold or hot)...this process could take some time and was stressful for bunny so we tried to avoid the full bum bath if we could but sometimes we just couldnt.

An alternative method is to use cornflour. It is like a dry bath and is really effective at both absorbing the wetness in the fur, and cleaning it off, and soothing the skin. Actually a lot of the time this would be what we would use as Muesli seemed to prefer it and if it was just a small area of wetness it was just as effective, if not more so as you are preventing the rubbing with towels etc.

Anyway back to now, so sorry he is still having the problems. Maybe you could discuss with your vet getting a urine sample. It usually has to be very fresh. We got one for Muesli by sticking a syringe in one of his "puddles" and sucking it up. They should give you a little container to put it in, then you probably need to get it to vets within 24hrs.

Again it *may* be worth just testing for EC, just to be sure (sorry to keep banging on about it).

It *may* be possible to do an ultrasound or x-ray with sedation....but please don't take my word for it, I am very tired and not thinking clearly but just wondered from the top of my mind whether this might be possible...something you could ask your vet.

Apart from this you could watch that Supreme vet Webinar if you havent seen it, its great for explaining a lot of the different causes.

Dental issues can cause excessive drinking and weeing. (Sorry head foggy now and not sure I am helping so going to leave it here). Will check back soon to see how Barney is.

Thank you for your advice Helgalush, I did read it but I didnt have time to properly reply at the time. I think dry baths are an excellent idea and if this reoccurs I will definately use that way.

I have a brilliant update - Barney's bum has been dry for a few days now! No idea whether it was the propalin or the baytril, or just time, but he seems to be better, although I am still giving him regular bum checks. He's been off the medication for 2 days now and no sign of relapse so far, so that's hopeful!

I dont know whether it would be worth using panacur as a preventative measure for 28 days? He'd probably hate it and it would be a pain as I have no way of bleaching on the days you're meant to (I have carpet in the room) but all this has got me worried about it. Although from my other thread on EC it seems there is nothing that kills them anyway :?

Helgalush how do you apply the corn flour, do you put it in something and dunk him in it, or put it in your hand and rub it on?


Update - Yesterday, after being better for so long I found Barney had completely soaked himself I gave him a bath and was going to take him to the vets today but he doesnt seem to have done it again so I'm leaving it for now, as I'd like to have a symptom to actually show the vet. Hopefully it was a one off and he just had an accident.

But what I did notice when I was bathing him is that he has a bald patch on the inside of one of his back legs and it is red and sore looking, although he didnt jump when I touched it. He also has a bald patch in the dip either side of his genitals, although I think this is normal? But one is red, the same side as the sore leg. I assume this is urine burn left over from last time? (although I didnt notice it then) I'm going to put some sudocrem on it as people have said, but is it safe if he eats it?

It sounds like he has urine scald which is very sore and tender for them. If the bunny isnt soaking and matted with urine I use warm water and cotton wool and very gently wipe to get the urine off, I take my time so as not to cause discomfort by rubbing on sore skin. Then I dry the skin/fur as best I can gently again using dry cotton wool or if necessary a soft towel, again taking care not to rub. Then I apply a thin layer of Sudocrem to soothe and protect the skin.

If the wetness and soreness isnt too bad thats when I tend to use cornflour as its soothing and drying and you can use it to rub any urine out of the fur. Again I dont rub the actual skin. I just get some in my hands and apply gently, almost like a soft patting motion, until it is applied to the areas that needs it, then rub it through any fur that is dirty and matted to 'clean' it.

Hope he is ok. Occasionally Muesli gets a wet botty/slight urine scald out of the blue, seemingly for no apparent reason. What normally happens is that he has done a wee in a random place (where there are no puppy pads) and then he sits in it, and thats what causes the scald. I dont know why 95% of the time he is fine, but there is just the odd occasion when this happens.

Hi, please don't go under the misapprehension that EC kidney problems are secondary. I have just lost a bun to renal failure caused by EC. She had no neurological symptoms whatsoever. She had mild incontinence on and off for two months. My first vet gave me baytril as there was blood in her urine. Eventually after a lot of faffing I switched vets and they did an EC blood titre and she was raging with it. And it killed her, as she went into renal failure and despite valiant efforts on behalf of my new vet she went completely off her legs and died in her sleep. With regards to GA for x ray, my first vet wanted to do that but I said I wasn't happy given that her gut was already rammed with hypomotility due to he appetite being off. So he sedated her. And she never really got over that. Which I could kick myself for now. The new vet did two more X-rays whilst she was in their care and didn't need to sedate for either. Needless to say I have switched to the new vet now and are very happy with their treatment. A 28 day course of lapizole (or panacur) has now come to an end, it will ensure that the rest of my buns will not succumb to the same fate as their mum, as they have all been exposed to EC now.

Thank you both for your quick replies, I'm just popping off to co-op for some sudocrem and corn flour now. Does the corn flour have to be rubbed out then, or will some left be okay? He'll definately lick it.

He's still a little damp from when I washed him at 1am, but I hate using the hairdryer on him, he hates being held and he doesnt like the hairdryer either, I assume from the blowing as he's deaf. Its always on low heat and not too close to him. I think he's just damp still because after he has a bath he licks himself constantly, and he has such thick fur, but could I use corn flour to dry him after a bath (or now) too?

What test is it for EC, is it bloods? Do you think its a good idea, assuming he does wet himself again, to demand diagnostics, maybe including kidney function again? Do you think its worth doing full bloods? My vet never seems keen on diagnostics for some reason, I think he sees it as an unnessessary delay and expense when you could just treat the problem.

If he does test positive to EC of course again that doesnt prove anything as most rabbits have it anyway and it causes no issues. My vet is sure panacur wont help, and it seems that it doesnt kill the parasite, so I dont know what I would do if it was EC? I really hope its not as its just so untreatable.

I dont think I will get xrays done if I can help it, I think to do it without GA the vet trances the rabbit, and Barney does not trance properly, he does the opposite and has a hulk moment. And he gets so stressed when being held. When he next needs a dental I might get one done then, but his teeth (touch wood) havent needed doing for months now.

I wish I could go to an exotic or rabbit specialist, but its just an impossibilty where I am. I'm hoping to find one when I move down to Portsmouth in June.

Personally I would want an EC test, just to know one way or the other. Having two buns with urinary issues of one kind or another, one bun was positive and one bun was negative. It means that you can treat with Panacur/Lapizole if it comes back positive. I think I read somewhere a while back that Richard Saunders suggested up to 6 weeks of treatment, but I may have imagined it. You can bleach the litter trays and any other areas that are hard surfaces but yes as you say its difficult to get rid in carpet. You could try hiring one of those carpet cleaners, maybe. All you can do is what you think is your best.

I dont honestly know if its worth repeating blood tests for other things though.

With the cornflour/sudocrem - I dont know how safe they are to be ingested....it wasnt too much of a worry with Muesli as the only time he licks down there is when he was cecotrophing. You dont need to rub the cornflour out no, just 'apply' it, and then you can also rub a little through the fur - it absorbs the moisture that way so helps with keeping dry.