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Bonnie's molar spurs have returned/Vibes for dental please

Fifibutton

Wise Old Thumper
She is hunched up, drooling and not eating. This comes less than five weeks after her dental. She is going to the vet at 11am and I am worrying about what he may suggest. Would it be wise at this stage to ask the vet to remove the spurs completely (root and all) or is it too soon to tell if they are going to be a re-ocurring problem? I feel she will probably always have dental problems now as this has occurred so soon. She was due her six week post dental check up next week but the chances are she may go under GA again today. I'm scared for her, does anyone have any dental/toothless bunny advice I can relay to the vet. He has never mentioned full tooth removal so if it could work I want to be able to assert myself and get him to explore all the other options first.
 
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Unfortunately, molar removal is really a last resort, as if a molar is removed, the opposing molar must also be removed, but then you can end up with additional jaw based issues etc.

Spurs occur from mis-shapen jaws etc, so having dentals every 5-8 weeks isn't always unexpected. Ginger's up to ~8 weeks, but is brewing for one now i think, after only 2-3 weeks due to a stasis episode and so hay eating was negligible and the spurs grew without being worn down.

I certainly wouldn't consider it to be the be all end all :)

Loads of vibes for Bonnie!
 
She is hunched up, drooling and not eating. This comes less than five weeks after her dental. She is going to the vet at 11am and I am worrying about what he may suggest. Would it be wise at this stage to ask the vet to remove the spurs completely (root and all) or is it too soon to tell if they are going to be a re-ocurring problem? I feel she will probably always have dental problems now as this has occurred so soon. She was due her six week post dental check up next week but the chances are she may go under GA again today. I'm scared for her, does anyone have any dental/toothless bunny advice I can relay to the vet. He has never mentioned full tooth removal so if it could work I want to be able to assert myself and get him to explore all the other options first.

I wouldn't advice molar tooth removal just yet. Molar removal is very dangerous and can quite easily result in a bunny with a broken jaw. At one point with Lola we had her under GA ever 3 weeks for her molars...with age her molar growth began to stunt.

Has she had head x-rays? For the time being get all the different hays you can and ensure she has leafy greens. I don't know what else to suggest, obviously with us it was slightly different as Lola's spurs were a problem due to her lack of teeth for the spurs to grind down on :(

So sorry to hear about Bonnie hun. Lots of vibes from me and the buns xxxxx
 
Im sorry, she is due again so soon. I hope your vet listens to your concerns and talks things through.
 
Hello there

Usually, once molar spurs occur, they are ongoing. My buns had molar spurs, which luckily, my new vet could remove whilst he was awake, (my old vet couldn't) which caused him no problem whatsoever. You might want to try and find a rabbit-savvy vet who can perform conscious dentals - this will save an awful lot of GAs. To be honest, when my buns was first diagnosed with molar spurs, I thought it was the end of the world, but I found a new vet (the current one I have) who is just wonderful and just removed them every 12 weeks whilst bunny was awake - it took about 10 minutes, if that! Also, try and get bunny eating as much stalky hay as possible, rather than pellets, as this does help with the chewing motion of wearing the spurs down naturally. My bunny had to have his front teeth removed this year, due to a tooth abscess (he is 10!) and once the front teeth (all 4) were removed he seems to have no longer suffered with molar spurs. He has now gone 41 weeks without any problem, so I think the front tooth removal solved the probelm of the spurs - something you could mention to you vet? (He is a mini-lop). Good luck and keep positive - sometimes, a change in vet will change the whole situation.
 
Thank you everyone, your replies helped and I was able to fully discuss things with the vet. We had a long chat.

I have mixed news about Bonnie. She was examined with an otoscope and the vet saw the spurs have indeed returned though they are not as long as they were before. She also has an ulcer on her tongue where one spur has been rubbing against it. She will be getting another dental under general anaesthetic today and the vet will file the teeth right down until they are level with the gums. Last time he filed the sharp points (spurs) off but left the teeth as normal.
Bonnie’s problems cannot be cured, she will always have squint teeth from now on and though we can explore other options they may not be fair on her. I discussed this extensively with the vet.

The main problem we have is time. Had Bonnie cleared the 6 week mark (no dental problems in the 6 weeks following her previous operation) then there would be less cause for concern. The fact that the spurs have returned so soon means she is prone and will always be beset by dental issues. The vet said that if she needs a dental operation every month or so we have to consider whether that is fair on Bonnie.

I also asked him about full tooth removal. He said full tooth removal would involve drilling a hole in the jaw (or under the eye socket) to extract the root and tooth. However taking out the unhealthy tooth means the opposing healthy tooth above or below will also have to be removed. If that is not done the healthy tooth will be left rubbing against the gum flesh causing excessive bleeding and pain. My vet does not perform that kind of surgery; he would have to refer us to the rabbit specialist Brigtte Reusch. She is the only specialist in Scotland and works and lectures at the **** Vet at Edinburgh University. While she would perform the operation she may question the ethics behind it as full tooth removal is such a dangerous and tricky operation.

For a start drilling around the eye socket is fraught with risks and injuries can occur as a result. The jaw can break, the eye socket pierced and even if successful there is a high risk of oral bacteria entering the hole where the tooth once was thus causing infection characterised by pus and bleeding. Furthermore Bonnie would never be able to eat hay or grass again if she did not have molars. She would have to live off a permanent soft diet which would probably cause permanent diarrhoea. This will cause her to lose essential nutrients as rabbits eat their own (solid) faeces to regain bacteria. She won’t be able to do that if her stool is soft or runny. Finally full tooth and root removal is not a guaranteed cure, teeth and roots can grow back and if that were to happen we’d encounter the same problems.

Bonnie’s problems are old age related and directly linked to the issue of calcium. Rabbits need calcium and fibre more than any other nutrient and this is absorbed through the diet. Some rabbits when they age start to lose calcium around their body or fail to absorb it properly so the body trys to derive from every source possible and apart from the bones the teeth are richest source of calcium. So as the calcium levels in the teeth are depleted they become softer and start to misalign causing the teeth to miss each other and fail to wear against each other which encourages the growth of spurs. The vet can give calcium injections but has said they often have little effect in older rabbits and the injections won’t cure the spurs.

Now that her jaw is misaligned she will she will always suffer from spurs. In humans a brace would be used to correct any misalignment but no such thing exists for rabbits and it may not be practical.

We face a hard decision with Bonnie and it all comes down to time. As I said the vet will operate today and grind the teeth down as low as possible, lower than last time in order to give Bonnie time. We need to see how long she can go without dental problems. The vet said if she were to clear three months then there is a chance we would not need to explore other options. If she develops problems before then we would have to take her back and discuss our options.

She will die one way or another because of this whether we put her to sleep or whether she fails to come round after an operation or sustains severe injuries and health problems :(

So for today at least I need her to come through this op and then we shall take it one day at a time and decide what is best for based on what happens next.

I can't believe this is happening in some ways. She has such a great diet and life as do all the buns and she is so sweet tempered and cuddly, she does not deserve this :(
 
Thank you everyone, your replies helped and I was able to fully discuss things with the vet. We had a long chat.

I have mixed news about Bonnie. She was examined with an otoscope and the vet saw the spurs have indeed returned though they are not as long as they were before. She also has an ulcer on her tongue where one spur has been rubbing against it. She will be getting another dental under general anaesthetic today and the vet will file the teeth right down until they are level with the gums. Last time he filed the sharp points (spurs) off but left the teeth as normal.
Bonnie’s problems cannot be cured, she will always have squint teeth from now on and though we can explore other options they may not be fair on her. I discussed this extensively with the vet.

The main problem we have is time. Had Bonnie cleared the 6 week mark (no dental problems in the 6 weeks following her previous operation) then there would be less cause for concern. The fact that the spurs have returned so soon means she is prone and will always be beset by dental issues. The vet said that if she needs a dental operation every month or so we have to consider whether that is fair on Bonnie.

I also asked him about full tooth removal. He said full tooth removal would involve drilling a hole in the jaw (or under the eye socket) to extract the root and tooth. However taking out the unhealthy tooth means the opposing healthy tooth above or below will also have to be removed. If that is not done the healthy tooth will be left rubbing against the gum flesh causing excessive bleeding and pain. My vet does not perform that kind of surgery; he would have to refer us to the rabbit specialist Brigtte Reusch. She is the only specialist in Scotland and works and lectures at the **** Vet at Edinburgh University. While she would perform the operation she may question the ethics behind it as full tooth removal is such a dangerous and tricky operation.

For a start drilling around the eye socket is fraught with risks and injuries can occur as a result. The jaw can break, the eye socket pierced and even if successful there is a high risk of oral bacteria entering the hole where the tooth once was thus causing infection characterised by pus and bleeding. Furthermore Bonnie would never be able to eat hay or grass again if she did not have molars. She would have to live off a permanent soft diet which would probably cause permanent diarrhoea. This will cause her to lose essential nutrients as rabbits eat their own (solid) faeces to regain bacteria. She won’t be able to do that if her stool is soft or runny. Finally full tooth and root removal is not a guaranteed cure, teeth and roots can grow back and if that were to happen we’d encounter the same problems.

Bonnie’s problems are old age related and directly linked to the issue of calcium. Rabbits need calcium and fibre more than any other nutrient and this is absorbed through the diet. Some rabbits when they age start to lose calcium around their body or fail to absorb it properly so the body trys to derive from every source possible and apart from the bones the teeth are richest source of calcium. So as the calcium levels in the teeth are depleted they become softer and start to misalign causing the teeth to miss each other and fail to wear against each other which encourages the growth of spurs. The vet can give calcium injections but has said they often have little effect in older rabbits and the injections won’t cure the spurs.

Now that her jaw is misaligned she will she will always suffer from spurs. In humans a brace would be used to correct any misalignment but no such thing exists for rabbits and it may not be practical.

We face a hard decision with Bonnie and it all comes down to time. As I said the vet will operate today and grind the teeth down as low as possible, lower than last time in order to give Bonnie time. We need to see how long she can go without dental problems. The vet said if she were to clear three months then there is a chance we would not need to explore other options. If she develops problems before then we would have to take her back and discuss our options.

She will die one way or another because of this whether we put her to sleep or whether she fails to come round after an operation or sustains severe injuries and health problems :(

So for today at least I need her to come through this op and then we shall take it one day at a time and decide what is best for based on what happens next.

I can't believe this is happening in some ways. She has such a great diet and life as do all the buns and she is so sweet tempered and cuddly, she does not deserve this :(

Oh Fiona I am so sorry. What a dilemma.:cry: *hugs*

How old is Bonnie? As you know Lola at one point was having dental every three weeks but that lengthendslowly but surely and at one point she had 4 months without needing a dental. This was due to her age and the tooth growth process slowing and eventually stunting. Lola has severe dental disease so only have one top right molar, this had nothing to grind again so was the usual cause of any problems. It also meant Lola only ate on her left side. I do believe a bunny can live a happy and contented life even as a dental bunny, I really do. I don't regret anything me and Jay did for Lola with her regular dentals and I honestly think that Bonnie can still have a brilliant life too.

You are such a caring mummy, only you can make the final decision. I hope her dental goes well today xxxxxx
 
Thanks Amanda :)

Stef she is seven so getting on but she has never shown it until now. I have a 9 year old bun who acts about two :lol: The vet is certain her age is the problem. She has a very healthy diet and so do all the buns. I've had rabbits for 10 years now and she is the first one I've had that is suffering from dental problems so my experience is minimal. Bonnie is bright active and happy when not ill and she was gaining weight and regrowing her fur after the last dental op, she came round really well. I want to do the best I can for her so will keep posting and asking for advice form all you dental savvy bun owners. I'm not ready to consider pts and she isn't ready either. I know she isn't. She was fairly bright despite being in pain and she hoovered up her pellet slurry. She is has some fight left in her and she loves he rlife and huge big garden full for smells and sights and sounds. I'm just so worried. Its like a timebomb. I'd be very wary after speaking to the vet and seeing yours and Gray's post on full molar extraction to go down that route. I suppose it comes down to how long she can go without pain before the next dental.I'm not sure what is truly ethical though. I know this will probably kill her but I don't want it to get to the stage where her quality of life is minimal and she is just barely being kept alive for my or Nori's (her husbun) sake. I guess its the when that is hard to gauge. When is the right time, will I even have to make that decision or will natural causes intervene. I'm still getting my head around the fact that this is essentially ruining her life and I am having to accept we may not have long with her no matter what we decide. I will speak to other vets and ask for a referral if I think its necessary and I will keep RU updated. The advice and support here is a massive comfort and its good to know there are so many helpful caring people.
Bonnie is going under now so fingers crossed that will go ok and she'll come round. She is staying indoors with me for the next few days so I'll be able to monitor closely.


Oh Fiona I am so sorry. What a dilemma.:cry: *hugs*

How old is Bonnie? As you know Lola at one point was having dental every three weeks but that lengthendslowly but surely and at one point she had 4 months without needing a dental. This was due to her age and the tooth growth process slowing and eventually stunting. Lola has severe dental disease so only have one top right molar, this had nothing to grind again so was the usual cause of any problems. It also meant Lola only ate on her left side. I do believe a bunny can live a happy and contented life even as a dental bunny, I really do. I don't regret anything me and Jay did for Lola with her regular dentals and I honestly think that Bonnie can still have a brilliant life too.

You are such a caring mummy, only you can make the final decision. I hope her dental goes well today xxxxxx
 
:wave: ive had a few dental buns.....some worse than others..BUT sometimes a bun can have a dental and need another one in three weeks!!! other times...for several months. sadly i find removing spurs is not good enough...burring both top and bottom both sides is the real solution to too many dentals.
the vet told me today that with the gas they give them...theyve got about 30 seconds to do the dental before the rabbit sits up!
merlin would greatly benefit from a gumline burring top and bottom both sides...i think its what we wil have to do.

molar removal seems a solution..but its not really..it then can present itself with added problems.

but i have no experince in that dept....but have had two buns who ad inscisor removal over the years....

i hope all goes well..what a dilemma for you. Bonnie may surprise you yet....bif once went 7 months without a dental!! but bless her sometimes only a fortnight apart....she was a little bun with teefs problems.....and no hay amounts could stop it. But sometimes it slows them down.

nosey rubs bonnie...and im keeping fingers crossed here for you.
 
Thank you that is a really interesting read. I'm given to thinking the worst and tbh she does seem bright otherwise. She is strong and she may surprise us. I hope so, she is such a lovely girl. I have have just called the vet for a progress update and she has come round from the op and is doing well. I'm to pick her up at 5pm so she will be home soon getting lots of cuddles and attention as usual.


:wave: ive had a few dental buns.....some worse than others..BUT sometimes a bun can have a dental and need another one in three weeks!!! other times...for several months. sadly i find removing spurs is not good enough...burring both top and bottom both sides is the real solution to too many dentals.
the vet told me today that with the gas they give them...theyve got about 30 seconds to do the dental before the rabbit sits up!
merlin would greatly benefit from a gumline burring top and bottom both sides...i think its what we wil have to do.

molar removal seems a solution..but its not really..it then can present itself with added problems.

but i have no experince in that dept....but have had two buns who ad inscisor removal over the years....

i hope all goes well..what a dilemma for you. Bonnie may surprise you yet....bif once went 7 months without a dental!! but bless her sometimes only a fortnight apart....she was a little bun with teefs problems.....and no hay amounts could stop it. But sometimes it slows them down.

nosey rubs bonnie...and im keeping fingers crossed here for you.
 
Just on briefly and haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to send vibes for Bonnie. xx

Thank you :)

She is home now, not eating but pooing and feels pretty flat. Her top and bottom teeth have filed right down as low as possible. We have an appointment the Thursday before Christmas so that we are not caught out over the holiday break in case she needs another dental around that time.
 
So very glad the op went well. Apologies my message is short still on train. Nomming vibes a plenty xxx

Thank you :D She has dipped her snout in the slurry bowl and lapped some up. She also nommed a wee bit of parsley. Her tum is very gurgly and she has done lots of black little tear shaped sticky poos :mrgreen: She is lying down again now. I think she is feeling quite sorry for herself :( Hopefully some snuggles will cheer her up.
 
Just saw this and am so pleased she has been ok with her dental...and she is home and has eaten and pooped abit...lotsa recovery vibes for your gorgeous girl xxx
 
I've just seen this too, I'm so glad today went ok for her, it's great that she's eaten something already :D sending lots of vibes for her, I hope her next dental is ages away x
 
I'm really glad the op went well and Bonnie is home safely. :love: I hope she manages to go as long as possible without needing another dental.
 
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