HELP..please :(

I have a 3y 7m old dwarf lop bunny, she is not spayed. Recently she has started drinking approx 1400ml per day . I have ran blood tests and took urine samples, not really sure where to go from here ? She is still her normal self, nice poos and still bright etc. Althogh she does eat quite maniacally, you would think she had never been fed :shock:! Was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions.

Thanks

What were the results of the bloods and urinalysis ?

Is she losing weight ?

Is there any reason why she is not spayed ?

Hi this happened to my unspayed bunny when she took a pyometra (womb infection) I had her spayed and it sorted itself out.
Although if bloods were taken a high white cell count would point to this as it shows infection did you do a haematology sample?
Hope she gets on ok for you

I only have the biochemistry report atm as everything else is on her record at work.

alkaline phosphate 80 iu/l 12-96
AST 40 iu/l 33-99
Gamma GT 4 iu/l <7.0
LDH *1196 g/l 132-252
Total Protein 59 g/l 49-71
Albumin 38 g/l 36.0-41.5
Globulin *21 g/l 24-33
Urea 5.8 mmol/l 3.3-8.1
Creatine 102 mmol/l 71-256
Calcium 3.57 mmol/l 2.2-4.6
Phosphorus *1.5 mmol/l 1.8-3.4
CK/CPK *2090 iu/l 140-372
Triglyceride *1.30 mmol/l 2.6-3.5
Glucose 5.6 mmol/l 2.8-8.9
Bile Acid 12.6 umol/l 3-20

we took a urine sample and treated with baytril but she is still drinking far too much, she isn't losing any weight, she is actually overweight she weighs 3.1kg she is on a diet though. she isnt spayed as she is my first ever bunny. I bought her from pets at home and no-one ever mentioned. they didnt even tell me if she was male or female tbh i had to do this myself when home, only recently have I learned about uterus cancer etc and I am trying to get her weight down so as to get her spayed .
I feel quite guilty not having her spayed I didnt actually realise there was anything wrong with this, I thought I was doing best by her by not putting her through an anaesthetic

Dont feel bad about her not being spayed . . you are trying to do the best for her now you know and thats all anyone can do. P@H are not great with their 'advice' to new owners (or their sexing of buns:roll::roll

I do not know enough to interpret the results so am bumping this up in the hope Jacks Jane or one of the vets/vet nurses on here comes along soon.

My thoughts for lots of drinking would be kidney failure , liver problems or womb infection . . . (my buns that drank too much had kidney failure - but they lost weight as well)

but I am sure some others will be able to help more

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated

Im just not sure what to do, she was in for an ultrasoud scan yday, we didnt find anything major that we could say was definatley causing her excessive drinking. We have took a urine sample which we did an inhouse urinalysis on, but nothing showed up. We have also sent urine away for lab analysis.

I just hate sitting around waiting on something to come up when I know she is ill some nurses have said that there is only so much we can do as I have already took this alot further than most people they see with bunnys and I may have to think about pts if she is suffering. Although to myself i feel that this is NOT an option. she isnt her usual self today though, she seems quite down Just wish someone could tell me whats wrong with her :?

binkybunnyox said:

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated

Im just not sure what to do, she was in for an ultrasoud scan yday, we didnt find anything major that we could say was definatley causing her excessive drinking. We have took a urine sample which we did an inhouse urinalysis on, but nothing showed up. We have also sent urine away for lab analysis.

I just hate sitting around waiting on something to come up when I know she is ill some nurses have said that there is only so much we can do as I have already took this alot further than most people they see with bunnys and I may have to think about pts if she is suffering. Although to myself i feel that this is NOT an option. she isnt her usual self today though, she seems quite down Just wish someone could tell me whats wrong with her :?

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That is EXACTLY how my Ginger is when she is having a bad kidney day. Her kidneys aren't failing, but are genetically not right due to bad breeding roll. On average, she drinks 1.5L/day (1500ml) so close to your bun. Sub-cutaneous fluids can often sort this straight out, as it helps to flush her system of the high volume of toxins in her blood. Maybe this would help yuo?

I don't have the results of her bloods to hand, but high Urea (toxins the kidneys are meant to filter from the liver breaking down protein) levels are something to watch out for.

Is there any chance she could have an xray to show her abdomen? Perhaps that may show up an enlarged/shrunken kidney, although it doesn't always i know.

Thanks GrahamL, I am in the fortunate position of working in a vets ( i have just started training to become a vet care assistant ), so will do an xray and see if anything shows up. I was wondering about diabetes insipidus ? I realise that this is rare but nothing seems to show up on anything we do. I am on holiday atm so left the vet with a urine sample which was pale whitish colour with sediment in, he said he was going to spin it and examine the sediment ? Will phone tomorrow and see about taking her in for an xray aswell.

binkybunnyox said:

Thanks GrahamL, I am in the fortunate position of working in a vets ( i have just started training to become a vet care assistant ), so will do an xray and see if anything shows up. I was wondering about diabetes insipidus ? I realise that this is rare but nothing seems to show up on anything we do. I am on holiday atm so left the vet with a urine sample which was pale whitish colour with sediment in, he said he was going to spin it and examine the sediment ? Will phone tomorrow and see about taking her in for an xray aswell.

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A white chalky urine is usually the result of elimination of excess calcium. I'm wondering what her diet is like? What do you feed her and in what quantities? :wave:

I feed Pepper timothy hay, excel light rabbit pellets, and fresh herbs and veg.

Her veg varies depending on what we have in the house. Things like broccoli, basil, mint, parsley, sage, cauliflower, carrots (as a treat), bell pepper, cabbage, coriander, lettuce etc

She sometimes gets fruit aswell as a treat, sometimes shes a cheeky bunny & steals it from my bowl :lol: she loves raspberries, strawberries, melon, grape and apple. She rarely gets fruit though about once a month, I am wary of giving it as she is a chunky lil cadbury bunny !

I did start wondering about her diet when i took the urine sample, and have purchased Rabbit Nutrition and Nutritional Healing by Luciele Moore after seeing good things on RU

binkybunnyox said:

I feed Pepper timothy hay, excel light rabbit pellets, and fresh herbs and veg.

Her veg varies depending on what we have in the house. Things like broccoli, basil, mint, parsley, sage, cauliflower, carrots (as a treat), bell pepper, cabbage, coriander, lettuce etc

She sometimes gets fruit aswell as a treat, sometimes shes a cheeky bunny & steals it from my bowl :lol: she loves raspberries, strawberries, melon, grape and apple. She rarely gets fruit though about once a month, I am wary of giving it as she is a chunky lil cadbury bunny !

I did start wondering about her diet when i took the urine sample, and have purchased Rabbit Nutrition and Nutritional Healing by Luciele Moore after seeing good things on RU

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I believe broccoli and parsley are are high in calcium and lettuce isn't recommended (although some types are ok). Seems like you've got the diet pretty much sorted - except how many pellets do you feed? Lots and lots of hay is better, and an eggcupful of pellets. Carrots and fruit only as an occasional treat.

Thanks, will bear this in mind when buying veggies from now I am guilty of the broccoli the lettuce is only occasionally, when her aunt nicola gives her some ! It's romaine lettuce ? do you think it is a possibility that her diet could be causing her excessive drinking ?

She only gets a tiny handful of pellets, sorry forgot to write in my last post

I'm afraid I have nothing medical to add, but I do know your worry, my Barney drinks way too much as well and the vets cant find a reason. Will be following this thread with interest.

I was told that excessive drinking can be a steriotypie if a rabbit is bored and lonely. Obviously you work and shes a single bun so she will be lonely a lot but you cant help that right now, but does she have a lot of space and things to keep her occupied?

I believe buns with too much calcium in their diet or kidney stones or general kidney problems are known to drink a lot to help flush things through.

Hope you can find what is causing this.

edit:Oh and, have you thought about using metacam in order to determine if any of the symtoms like the seeming depressed are a response to pain?

To answer your question, yes rabbits can get diabets insipidus both nephrogenic & pituitary types but it's rare.
Beatrix Potter's Mopsey had DI about 3 years ago.
In diabetes insipidus the urine has a very low specific gravity, which does not rise with very cautious fluid deprivation.
I would be surprised if your bun has DI because typically, the urea should be very low/unrecordable.

I hope your vet is checking for E cuniculi, a protozoan which usually causes neurological issues but can present with kidney issues alone. It is easily treated.
The oocysts (Spores) of E.cuniculi can occasionally be seen in the sediment of urine.
diagnosis is usually by rising titers of antibodies, but they can be misleading.

I disagree very strongly with the feeding methods used by Lucille Moore. They are far removed from the natural rabbit diet. Rabbit gut micooganisms are a key part of the digestion process, & can easily become inbalanced with high concentrations of sugar & protein.
My own rabbit passed away last week aged 6 years4 months, which is an incredibly long life for a rabbit with cowpile syndrome/dysautonomia. The diet which suited him was based on a natural wild rabbit diet, was the key to his longevity, & has helped many, many bunnies.

Please listen to Graham L who has worked a miracle with his bunny Biscuit by adapting some of our findings re. bunny diet.

With every good wish for you both. Please keep us updated.

I dont imagine that she is bored. she has toys & a big cage, which is still growing ! i am actually clearing out my own things in order to make it bigger :lol: she has more room than us my partner says haha .

This is her cage atm



I had read a few things about EC & started treating her with panacur just to be safe. I did mention on Tuesday about EC although he didnt seem worried by this ? He is more intrested in kidneys atm. Her specific gravity was v low, although her urea wasnt, saying this we done bloods in august ? Maybe worth doing these again ? Hopefully we will get to the bottom of it soon ! If this does turn out to be a kidney issue of some sorts is it possible to manage through diet ? As I keep getting told from nurses that I may have to consider pts I feel some people are just too quick to write bunnys off .

I am so sorry to hear about your lil one thumps binky free bunny x

Ive found that rabbits seem almost too intelligent for toys, other people may disagree with that but in my experience they just don't really play with toys unless they are like a tunnel, on a level, etc, something they can run in, through, on, etc.

My lops started drinking a lot last January. It coincided with them having more dry food stuffs (hay and pellets) and less wet stuff like greens. They also moved rooms at the time, into my room which is warmer. The combination meant they were drinking around 1.5 litres between them a day. They had urine tests which were totally fine so we put it down to the food change and it's got better since then.

thumps_ said:

To answer your question, yes rabbits can get diabets insipidus both nephrogenic & pituitary types but it's rare.
Beatrix Potter's Mopsey had DI about 3 years ago.
In diabetes insipidus the urine has a very low specific gravity, which does not rise with very cautious fluid deprivation.
I would be surprised if your bun has DI because typically, the urea should be very low/unrecordable.

I hope your vet is checking for E cuniculi, a protozoan which usually causes neurological issues but can present with kidney issues alone. It is easily treated.
The oocysts (Spores) of E.cuniculi can occasionally be seen in the sediment of urine.
diagnosis is usually by rising titers of antibodies, but they can be misleading.

I disagree very strongly with the feeding methods used by Lucille Moore. They are far removed from the natural rabbit diet. Rabbit gut micooganisms are a key part of the digestion process, & can easily become inbalanced with high concentrations of sugar & protein.
My own rabbit passed away last week aged 6 years4 months, which is an incredibly long life for a rabbit with cowpile syndrome/dysautonomia. The diet which suited him was based on a natural wild rabbit diet, was the key to his longevity, & has helped many, many bunnies.

Please listen to Graham L who has worked a miracle with his bunny Biscuit by adapting some of our findings re. bunny diet.
With every good wish for you both. Please keep us updated.

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thumps_ means Ginger, but thank you for the praise Judy. I couldn't of done it without you and several other members, as per my PM yesterday.

Kidney issues can't necessarily be managed by diet, but you need to make sure its VERY low calcium and if it is kidney issues, one of the most important things as far as we are concerned, is getting plenty of fibre into bun, as they spend so much time consuming fluids, they cant graze as much as a healthy rabbit would, so end up with a secondary issue of GI tract problems.

With Ginger, that means we pump her full of high fibre foods;

Brambles (! this is her life saving food) - we go through about 5 large handfuls per day and give more on the first signs of a GI slowdown. I have 20 carrier bags drying/dried in the loft for over winter, hope itll be enough.
Hawthorn (when its available, which is now isnt )
Plenty of HIGH QUALITY hay (in the last month or so, we've found Timothy & Rye hay, and it's giving some poops like i've never seen before :shock
We also use Protexin ProFibre pellets on top of usual foods, as they are high in fibre themselves, BUT have the added property of being a probiotic and they assist greatly with absorbtion of nutrients from foods, which is key to Ginger's issues, may help you too.

Does your bun ever get 'free range' time out of that caged area? Movement is imperative to keep a buns GI tract turning over, so if it is kidney issues and GI issues start to occur, you're going to need to allow her more time running around that in there Just something to be aware of.

I would agree Elena, pepper just isnt intrested in toys, she likes her grass mat and tunnel and loves coming out to sit next to you for a nose rub :lol: Her diet hasnt changed she is still getting greens etc and she has always been kept in my room, as the temprature was my 1st thought when she started drinking so much :shock: but it isnt overly warm in here.

Pepper has been getting pro-fibre occassionally, on ultrasound the vet said her gut was moving nicely she gets free range time when I am in, she is out in the morning for an hour before I go to work, sometimes she sits in her carrier when she sees me getting my jacket :lol: and when I come home from work she is let back out. Shes only in her cage when there is no one in, as I dont trust the lil monkey ! shes a nibbler haha.

Having a bit of a problem getting brambles and hawthorn i am sure you can buy these already dried ? will have to have another snoop around RU :lol:

Thanks for all your help, your bunnies look absolotley gorjuss in your siggie ginger is v lucky to have an owner like you !

Looks like you have a good amount of enrichment in the cage to stop her getting bored. It also looks big enough to stop her getting so bored as to developing a steriotypie, but the fact that you are working to extend it is good, as she probably spends 18hrs a day in there. Going by the size of my own NIC panels (yours may be different) it is 4ft8inches long but hard to calculate as its not a rectangle and I'm too busy right now to work it out, but I estimate arund 10sqft of space taking into account the second level. Even if you can extend the top level, which wont take up any more of your own space, and make the cage a rectangle, as that joint narrowing it isnt giving you any more room and is taking away hers, - these could double the space she has.

Obviously this isnt related to her illness as I mentioned it looks big enough to prevent abnormal obsessive behaviours, but thought I'd mention it as a general care tip, as it seems the information you got when buying her was lacking to say the least!