recurrent unwell giant bunny... hoping someone can give some advise

Hi,

I am new to this forum and in need of some advise as I can't quite work out what I am doing wrong!

I have an 11month old Giant House Bunny. He is in a large cage at night time but then free to run around the house in the day time, he has access to as much hay as he wants, excel nuggets and we give him grass from the garden as when he goes outside to play he is more interested in racing around than eating! He is a very affectionate boy, has at least two mad sessions of racing around the house - binkying like mad and investigates everything.... This is the story when he is well.

When we went to buy him we were told he needed to wait a couple of days as he had an upset tummy which was owing to travelling and as my last house bunny always had a funny tummy after going in the car to my parents I never gave it a second thought. Charlie frequently has episodes of ill health... symptoms are:- quiet, sits hunched with eyes half open (presuming in pain), he has mushy poops (I think these are the centrotopes) and his general poops become very small and bity and some of the times he stops eating. We have been to the vet so many times with him now and the last time (two weeks ago) I said please can you do some tests and suggested an X-ray and blood test as it is not fair on him to keep being unwell, we need to know what it is and either fix it or at least I can manage it with medicines if needs be. The vet agreed on the first day we took him in and when we went back the next day for the follow up the vet just sent us away with liquid Zantac (gut stimulant) and said maybe you will need to give him this every day for the rest of his life. I don't want to medicate him with that as we don't know what the source of the problem is.

It has happened so many times that at home I now have painkiller, fibre paste, rescue food & the gut stimulant. He started another episode yet again yesterday looking in pain, a few mushy and few smaller poops so today I have treated him with everything. This morning he was looking unwell and when I gave him the painkiller within 15mins he was playing and even did some binkies which is making me suspect pain.

I am going to go to a different Vet and the pet shop did say a couple of months ago that if it continued they would see him at their vets and then contribute towards any continues medicine treatments which is very nice of them. I am going to call them tomorrow and get him in with their vet.

I suspect that it is either pain starting it off or it is a recurrent imbalance in gut flora (because of the squishy centrotopes). I know rabbit's spine can be problematic and Charlie when he is well runs like a nutter, crashes into everything to the extent he grazed two patches skin on his back over two vertebrae once when he leaped over a small table, kicking the table away from the wall so he could fit down the gap only it didn't move like it usually did when he did it! When well he is a super happy bunny that loves to binky, play, have cuddles and is very attached to me. Has anyone any experience of recurrent problems of this type?

Thanks for you time in reading this, I am desperate for him to stay the happy bunny he is when he is well and worried I am doing something wrong!

Im so sorry to hear about your bunny.Please have a look at this thread http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...ity-caecum-working-again-p63-new-pattern-p167

Hello

Really to obtain a diagnosis he does need more investigation and hopefully the new Vet will be more accommodating

Does he have any urinary tract symptoms such as sludgy wee, straining to wee ?

Does he ever pass any cecal poo that looks more like a cowpat ?

Is he a good weight, not underweight ?

Re his diet, you say he has access to as much hay as he wants, but how much is he actually eating ? Does he tend to fill up on nuggets and just pick at hay ?


Do his episodes of tummy trouble coincide with him having fresh grass ?

I don't know that I can say much that the vet hasn't already, and I don't know what exactly excel is. But, I've been doing some research on a limited/no pellet diet, and it seems to kinda be the cure all for digestive issues. Basically, you feed unlimited timothy hay and water, plus 3-4 cups of vegetables twice a day. Link for list of safe veggies

The theory is pellets are basically just filler that taste better than hay, and therefore replace some of the need to eat it. Hay helps with tooth problems, GI problems, energy/weight issues, and then the remaining vitamins they get from the fresh veggies. There's a group on bunspace.com about it, they could probably give you more info.

Anyway, I hope you find out whats wrong!

Thank you so much for your replies…
Thank you Maizey I will look at that link in a moment.

Jack’s-Jane –
His urine is sometimes red/orange tinge but that can happen I gather from reading things and nothing to worry about. He has a type of tubular paper litter and sometimes it looks like say sugar and urine has been put on top of them where he has wee’d. Not sure it correlates with him being unwell but if it could be a urine infection I could remove all litter/paper from his tray so I could collect a urine sample to take to the vets. Yes he does produce cowpat type poop when he is unwell and sometimes is a mushy bunch of grapes. (I did look up megacolon as the thread suggested it but he doesn't have any mucus around his poops and I think his "cow pats" are squishy grape bunches he has stood on and he can find them in the pooh tray along normal poops). He is a healthy weight now but at 6months he was very small compared to how he should have been and we started giving him unlimited access to nuggets (he didn’t eat them all). He is now is 4.5kgs, he isn’t under/overweight and just looks a bit small for a giant bunny. He tends to sit in his litter tray and eat hay when sat in there and probably has about 3/4 handfulls a day. I was weighing how many nuggets he was eating both day and night when he was ill two weeks ago and when he recovered he was eating between 30-45grams in a 12hour period. (usually closer to 30). Vet told us to give him 10% of his body weight twice a day so about right on his advice – open to other ideas though. Grass doesn’t seem to start it and two weeks ago it was the only thing I could get him to eat at all for the first couple of days. This weekend’s episode he is still eating and has been eating hay and grass this evening although I started medicating very quickly this time so hoping he will not be as unwell as last time. I gave him metacam (painkiller) about 30mins ago and he is hopping about, he looks tired but he is moving about and has his eyes open fully.

Lolala – Thanks for the links. He has broccoli, carrot and some other bits but he is not that excited by veg although herbs are a different matter…. If you come into the room with some freshly picked mint or sage then he is all over you instantly! He will sit next to veg and not be interested but he will race to you for mint, sage, dill, coriander and thime! I was a bit worried about giving him lots of veg in case it added to upset tummy but sounds like I could be wrong there. I will have a look at bunspace as I would be happier if he didn’t eat processed food and just want him to be well all the time.

No prob! My bunspace name is Samson and Lady

Although it is difficult to say without seeing the bun (and I am not a vet) I wonder if he either has a gut issue that flares up such as mega colon, or an internal pain issue - something like kidney stones would result in intermittent pain - that would then lead to not eating - and the digestive problem comes from that.

If he were mine I would be expecting the vet to run x-ray and also scans for things not picked up by xrays, and also blood and urine tests.

If your vet seems unwilling to try and get to the root of the problem it may be that you should try and get a referral from your current vet to one of the specialist rabbit centres or investigate yourself whether there is a slightly more rabbit enthusiastic vet in your area - they may try and investigate and then if they cannot will refer you.

I know how it feels to have a bun with an intermittent but painful and life threatening problem (in fact I have had several! - one was the result of kidney stones but showed up as non-eating episodes, the other was mega colon).


whereabouts are you?

PS unless you are very very fortunate pet shop vets are often a mixed bunch . . .

One thing I forgot to mention... I know they do twitch in their sleep and Charlie does it gently when he is flopped on his side asleep so this maybe all that it is. Last time he was ill he was sat in a hunched position with localised strong twitching/contraction in his face and one side of his hind quarters. He did it again today and didn't want to wake up after and after about 2-4mins he came round and was ok. When he was ill two weeks ago I told the vet that he wouldn't wake up one time and he just carried on typing as he does every time I see him and didn't say anything. I have not mentioned the strong twitching as hadn't realised until he did it again this afternoon (my partner called me into the room as he thought he was having a seizure) that it possibly could be different to usual dreaming.

The vet usually doesn't say much and treats me a little like I am stupid, which maybe his usual manor. Until the last time I went in with my work NHS ID on and spoke to him in medical terms and he spoke to me without being condescending and admitted that it wasn't right he kept getting unwell.. but then still didn't do anything as he had started to turn the corner on the follow up...
Is it right it is hard to take blood from rabbits? The vet told me it was hard to take blood but then gave him an injection (gut stimulant) which made my bunny squirm (usually he is good and just sits there while I tickle his ears) and about 2-3 drops of blood were on the table after!
I have convinced myself this evening I really do need to change my vet!

It might be a good idea to start another thread asking for a recommendation to a vet in your area.

Parsnipbun
Thank you for your thoughts... I am convince the problem is something that mainly doesn't bother him and thus is races around / investigates everything or possibly bothers him a bit so he has the odd day where he is a bit quieter than usual and snoozes under his favourite chair and wants lots of cuddles and then has episodes when he is in a lot of pain.

I am living in Berkshire in the South of England. When I joined the vets I did ask if they had a vet who specialised or had special interest in bunnies and I was told all of their vets were equally qualified to look at bunnies... don't think they understood what I was meaning.

Im just trying to find some info on mega colon online... what tests did your bunny have to reach diagnosis? What sort of other scans can they do? My last bunny had two strokes but recovered from them both and never had any other problems so not sure what other imaging they do in the vets as all we needed was syringe food / painkiller and anti-inflam injection. I have moved since I was with that vet sadly and it is over 30mins away and he is not keen on the car so not something I want to put him through when he is already unwell.

Have you concidered whether his episodes coincide with eating a certain veg/lots of pellets/grass? Many people find Excell pellets cause excess Caeceotrophes (sorry about spelling!) also carrot is very sugary and can have an effect, like wise some are sensitive to cabbage/spring greens/broccoli and grass - one of mine is very sensitive to grass and gets a "gassy tummy" if I am not very strict.

I think Jane asked already but I haven't seen the answer, forgive me if I missed it, about how much hay he actually consumes.

Sorry, I swear I'm not being pushy! I was just reading and found this thread on the bunspace site, I still haven't implemented it myself but am still researching Hope you don't mind- http://www.bunspace.com/groups/topic?tid=4610&posts_tgp_no=last

They don't seem to follow the same set of events in terms of diet or anything else. This weekend's possibly he started having less grass mid week than the previous 3 weeks. He had his last episode 2-3 weeks ago and the only thing he would eat was grass so I started giving him less to get him back onto hay so grass could be an addition rather than the main if that makes sense. He has about 30-40grams day and night. There is more than that in the bowl so it is him restricting himself to that. Any advise on how much he should have in a 24hr period as I am only going on vet recommendation of 45g morning and night (he is 4.5kgs).
thanks for your help.

Thanks Lolala. I have just had a quick read... when he is over this one then I will try and reduce the nuggets, I agree with the author, he should be fine on hay / grass and veg. I will do it slowly as when he was about 6months he was very small and also a little underweight and then when we increased his nuggets he had a growth spurt and started to look better in terms of putting a bit of weight on top of the increase in size from the growth spurt.

:wave:Sorry to hear your boy is not well I am no where near as experienced as most people on here and I don't want to interfere but my friend had exactly same problems with her English giant bunny even down to colour of wee and in the end it was a change in pellets to science select and no veg only herbs that was the cure along with lots of hay, turns out he can't tolerate excell and veg and that was after extensive medical tests. I'm not suggesting it will cure your bunny as your vet will know best but thought you might like to know Hope he gets well soon sending vibes :wave:

I think I would really look for a vet that is prepared to use the diagnostic tools available.

Blood is very easy to take from a rabbit, urine less so uness they are being co-operative but is very very regularly done:

Also 'usual' scans, xrays, CT scans etc

Problems with the digestive tract can often be felt by a practiced vet just by literally feeling the bun! They then follow up with what they feel would be appropriate.

The rec-currance however might also suggest pain referring from elsewhere so it may be it needs a series of tests.

It is a shame he does not travel well - however it would be very worthwhile travelling one or two times to get this right . .

if he is a VERY bad traveller the vet might suggest a very small dose of diazapam (if its not going to interfere with what they are about to do when he arrives - obviously ONLY on vets advice . . )

strong twitching in his side whilst in pain may well indicate kidney pain . . though again difficult to say without actual location etc etc

Our kidney stone bun Damson did that when he was having an episode.

Post a thread asking for rabbit savvy vet near where you live - if it is stones you will need a good diagnostics vet who can also treat stones.

:wave: Hi Charlie2011.
Maizey referred you to my bun's thread, started when he had a life expectancy of 2 months, but which is now too long to read.
It certainly sounds very like early megacolon (Dysautonomia) symptoms.
The best test to use is ultrasound of the abdomen. It is better than X-R because it doesn't need a GA & the vet can see exactly how the gut is moving.

Please feel free to pm me if you wish. We were very fortunate indeed to be cared for by Marie Kubiak for 2 years, but she is now in Edgebaston. However we overcame many problems with her help.

We also found that some traditional wild plants easily available are very helpful indeed, & they have helped another megacolon conti.

ETA I'd advise you to stock up with as many blackthorn (Sloe) leaves as you can. they onlt qwork when gathered at thistime of year & are a miracle help for the cowpile poos, as well as helping with gut stasis. (Hoping Berks has as many blackthorn bushes as we do on the Wilts side of the border)