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EC Thread, No coccidia in faeces - Panacur course finished

Nicola1

Wise Old Thumper
I am losing my mind here :cry:

Does anyone know anything else that can stop EC spreading. We lost Lily about 3 weeks ago.

Since then I have:
  • ripped up all the flooring in their room and replaced it
  • bleached the litter trays (last time I did this was Sunday night just gone)
  • bleached skirting boards etc
  • put the bunnies on a 28 day course of Panacur which we started when we lost Lily

I have spent 100s of pounds and we have lost Castiel to what I can only assume was EC... all the others seem 100% healthy, well and boisterous. Castiel was a bit off colour about 2 weeks ago, OH took him to the vets and he was given steroids (I think) - whatever it is that supports the Panacur in treating EC :?

Any further ideas anybody?
 
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I'm not sure there is much more you can do (((hugs)) It seems to me that you have done everything your can do. When we lost Basil (previously diagnosed EC bunny) I was paranoid about cleaning and scrubbing because we then had Twinkle. Like you I spent days scrubbing out the playden, the runs, hosing down the grass run (which Twinkle is banned from at the moment) and generally cleaning everything that moved. I watch him like a hawk and am terrified he will get it as well, but I know I can do nothing more. I have had him on a 9 day course of Panacur as well. So sorry :cry: for your loss. x
 
But did you have a PM done? I don't think you can be sure it's EC and a PM might give you answers

So sorry for your losses :cry:
 
How are you so certain it is EC ?

this is the diagnosis the emergency vet gave us for Lily. It was the first time I had seen this vet or been to this surgery but she seemed rabbit savvy.

I didn't get a PM as when I looked into it on the internet there are no conclusive tests for EC?? Although please let me know if I'm wrong.

But if it isn't EC I am no further forward as I don't know what else it can be - no diarrhoea or any other signs of digestive upset, all the others are boisterous and healthy.

ETA (sorry if I have already mentioned this my head is all over the place!) I am at the vets tonight - although I know he is limited in what he can tell me as we have already lost Castiel :cry: so he will have nothing/nobun to diagnose
 
I believe a PM can show up lesions on the brain which can give a positive diagnosis for EC. As far as I know, there is no other reliable diagnosis for EC, other than a PM.

Maybe something else contagious? like cocci or were these bunnies all vaccinated with the same VHD vaccination batch?
 
Nic,

Did you lose a lot of gerbils etc recently, also completely un-explained?

I wonder if there is something going on in your house that we're not seeing here :? :(
 
I believe a PM can show up lesions on the brain which can give a positive diagnosis for EC. As far as I know, there is no other reliable diagnosis for EC, other than a PM.

Maybe something else contagious? like cocci or were these bunnies all vaccinated with the same VHD vaccination batch?

hmm this is interesting I will ask the vet about the VHD tonight :wave: I can't remember if these 3 were vaccinated at the same time as my vaccinations are staggered (I have a spreadsheet at home but at work at the minute!)

I don't think it can have been cocci as there was no sign of diarrhoea or any other symptoms like that. If it had been though, would it not have been killed by the bleach and Panacur?
 
I believe a PM can show up lesions on the brain which can give a positive diagnosis for EC. As far as I know, there is no other reliable diagnosis for EC, other than a PM.

Maybe something else contagious? like cocci or were these bunnies all vaccinated with the same VHD vaccination batch?

None of my pm's have ever included the brain. You need specialist tools to do that. However PM's often show up ec damage on the surface of the kidneys which does not show up via x-ray or bloods.
 
Nic,

Did you lose a lot of gerbils etc recently, also completely un-explained?

I wonder if there is something going on in your house that we're not seeing here :? :(

Yes which is why I can't get my head around it.

I found something on the internet saying EC can spread zoonotically but me and my vet both looked into it properly and it is only in theory - it pretty much never happens.

I bought a carbon monoxide detector after we lost the gerbils which is the only major thing I can think of and I open all my windows every time I'm in the house.

The gerbils and the chinchilla baby who I lost all had these similar shaky symptoms. But I can't find anything that would affect all these species.

Logically there is an explanation for all of it:
gerbils - questionable genetic background, I strongly suspect the last ones I got were bred for snake food
chinchilla - genetic background unknown, mum bred back-to-back
rabbits - EC

but in my little head I just can't see how it isn't linked.

I know Minimallow mentioned Ecoli when the gerbils were ill but my vet and I really tore into this theory and came up with nothing, and again that would have been killed by the bleach.

I mean what else is there - things like asbestos and damp maybe?
 
None of my pm's have ever included the brain. You need specialist tools to do that. However PM's often show up ec damage on the surface of the kidneys which does not show up via x-ray or bloods.

thank you and thank you Sky-O :wave: I didn't realise EC showed up in a PM. I think it will have been too long now for a PM though :( getting in touch with my vet now to find out
 
Nicola so sorry to read you've lost another bunny.
Just to add, as your other one had incontinence problems EC would have been a strong contender for the reason for her death.
It may be you are just having bad luck with losing badly bred gerbils , then having a bun spreading EC..the bleach will kill off EC spores but will not kill Cocci germs..I think the only thing to do that is Jeyes Fluid but that must be used with care around any pets..

I hope you get to the bottom of this soon as it must be such a worry for you

and anyone who has had a suspected EC case..the rabbits and/or any new ones must be Pancured for 28 days..not 9. the 9 day course is just for worming
 
Logically there is an explanation for all of it:
gerbils - questionable genetic background, I strongly suspect the last ones I got were bred for snake food
chinchilla - genetic background unknown, mum bred back-to-back
rabbits - EC

but in my little head I just can't see how it isn't linked.

Genetics could explain why some animals would die prematurely, but it would be very unlikely for them all to fatally succumb to that genetic problem within hours of each other (as was the case with the gerbils from Nicki), especially as Nicki still has others from the same litter that are perfectly healthy.
 
I think Coccidiosis is far more likely than EC. Gerbils can get Coccidiosis

In adult Rabbits the only sign of disease can be sudden death. There is not alway associated diarrhoea.

Bleach will not kill Coccidia. Steam cleaning will, along with diligent ongoing husbandry to include daily removal of ALL faeces.

I am very sorry for your losses :cry:
 
I also think that steam cleaning can be used against EC?

I don't think you can test for EC when you are already treating with panacur. My vet & manufacturer recommends treating for 6 weeks in a confirmed case of EC. I think I have EC in the group because of how some have died - I think Alfie , Joey (incontinence) & Kendra (head tilt & fitting), Barley (pneumonia) had EC, but all had had long bouts of panacur treatement in their lives, that weren't necessarily done when the spores were "active".

Agree Cocci can have no symptoms - I know someone who lost about ten buns over a weekend (bad breeder)
 
thank you and thank you Sky-O :wave: I didn't realise EC showed up in a PM. I think it will have been too long now for a PM though :( getting in touch with my vet now to find out

We have never used a PM to get an EC diagnosis, the kidney thing has always been an incidental finding, after discovering the primary cause of death.

I am so sorry you are going through this :cry:
 
Genetics could explain why some animals would die prematurely, but it would be very unlikely for them all to fatally succumb to that genetic problem within hours of each other (as was the case with the gerbils from Nicki), especially as Nicki still has others from the same litter that are perfectly healthy.

This. Especially as one was the mother gerbil - all three of the gerbils were lying on top of the megazorb in the same place at the same time, and as Karen has said I have two of their siblings who haven't had any problems, and another lady adopted two other siblings who are in full health. As I said when it happened, spores from ecoli can survive for 2 weeks on anything - hay, bedding, food, surfaces etc so bleaching the area doesn't mean it's eradicated. The only way you would have had an idea as to what it was, would have been the Post Mortem that I suggested, but your vet said they are pretty pointless and don't show up anything which is why you didn't get one on any of the animals if i remember correctly.
 
Don't have any advice to add Nicola but I'm so sorry your going through this :( hoping that all your buns are safe and well
 
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