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Cecal Dysbiosis? Pics of Josie Added! p30

Captain Helen

Captain Helen

Wise Old Thumper
After spending the evening nursing foster bun Sophie through another gas episode (she's fine again now) this morning I've found some odd looking special poops in foster bun Josie's litter tray.

After a quick search I think it's cecal dysbiosis. The cecals are larger, paler and smellier than usual. She's fine in herself. Her diet consists of hay, grass, 2 egg cups of Excel a day (as she's very under weight), hawthorn and brambles.

I've read I should keep her on a hay only diet for 24 hours, but is there anything else I can give her? Like Fibreplex? Any idea what could be causing it?

Thank you.
 
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All three of my bunnies will get those inflamed looking cecals if they have a new veggie in their diet, or just too many treats in general. I often have to take them to a hay only diet if this is the case.
I found though that with one of my buns (Fiver, my mini-rex) that timothy just doesn't firm him back up well. I have to give him a meadow grass or orchard grass to get him right again. And dandelions.

Getting them back to normal can sometimes take a few days or more when mine get like this. :( If it's really bad, usually having them eat only one kind of hay makes things better.
Is anything new in Josie's diet? What did she eat before she came to you?
Sending ((((((((((((((((healing vibes))))))))))))))!
 
MimzMum said:
All three of my bunnies will get those inflamed looking cecals if they have a new veggie in their diet, or just too many treats in general. I often have to take them to a hay only diet if this is the case.
I found though that with one of my buns (Fiver, my mini-rex) that timothy just doesn't firm him back up well. I have to give him a meadow grass or orchard grass to get him right again. And dandelions.

Getting them back to normal can sometimes take a few days or more when mine get like this. :( If it's really bad, usually having them eat only one kind of hay makes things better.
Is anything new in Josie's diet? What did she eat before she came to you?
Sending ((((((((((((((((healing vibes))))))))))))))!
Click to expand...

Thank you :wave:

I don't know what she used to eat, she was found as a stray and taken to a vet where I collected her from. Three days after she arrived she had horrible diarrhoea and was hospitalised for two nights. Since recovering I slowly introduced grass, hawthorn and brambles into her daily diet. She's been on this diet for just over a week now I think.

She's left cecals occasionally this week, but they've been perfectly formed. I haven't given her any veg as I was worried about upsetting her gut. I thought I had her on the best diet for her now, but I guess not :(
 
Hi :wave:

As shes very underweight I would think keeping her on some pellets is ideal at the moment. Maybe try reducing the amount to one eggcup full a day, and cutting out the grass aswell.

Youre doing a fab job with her Helen, keep reminding yourself how much she has improved since shes been with you :D Its just a case of tweaking her diet now until its perfect for her.
 
Have you tried any other pellet brands? Excel is a bit known for being a bit rich and causing excess cecals in some rabbits.
 
I agree with Schuette, pellets got my bunnies every time. I had to cut them out altogether. But you also want her weight up so.... :?
Do you have just plain alfalfa hay to feed there? I've used that pretty successfully for my minilop. But basically just keeping whatever hay she'll eat going in should be ideal.

If she's leaving well formed cecals, it may mean she's just getting too many carbs. If they are mushy and getting stuck to her bum, that's something else.
 
Gemmapookie said:
Hi :wave:

As shes very underweight I would think keeping her on some pellets is ideal at the moment. Maybe try reducing the amount to one eggcup full a day, and cutting out the grass aswell.

Youre doing a fab job with her Helen, keep reminding yourself how much she has improved since shes been with you :D Its just a case of tweaking her diet now until its perfect for her.
Click to expand...

Thank you :wave:

That's a good idea. I really don't want to cut the pellets out completely unless I have to. She was on pellets the whole time she was at the vet with diarrhoea. She's pretty much munched all the grass in her run now, I don't think there's anything left!

She's put on about 100-200g (my scales aren't very accurate, I need some proper animal ones!) since she came back from the vet. Slow progress, but at least it's progress! :)

Schuette said:
Have you tried any other pellet brands? Excel is a bit known for being a bit rich and causing excess cecals in some rabbits.
Click to expand...

That's a good point, thank you. :wave: My buns have always been fine on Excel, but perhaps they're just not right for Josie. I'll be near a Pets at Home later, I could get something else. Do P@H sell Science Selective? I've heard that's a good one.
 
I haven't been in a P@H for some time but from memory the only ones they sold then were their own brand and Excel. The only places I know of near me that sell SS are the horse suppliers where I get my hay and a garden centre. You can get it online as well.
 
MimzMum said:
I agree with Schuette, pellets got my bunnies every time. I had to cut them out altogether. But you also want her weight up so.... :?
Do you have just plain alfalfa hay to feed there? I've used that pretty successfully for my minilop. But basically just keeping whatever hay she'll eat going in should be ideal.

If she's leaving well formed cecals, it may mean she's just getting too many carbs. If they are mushy and getting stuck to her bum, that's something else.
Click to expand...

She gets plain farm baled hay usually, with a handful of that chamomile or marigold treat hay occasionally. Yesterday she only had the baled hay though.
 
So I asked the rescue I foster for if I should give Josie anything, and she suggest getting kaline and morphine mix from the chemist (without telling them it's for a rabbit) or immodium syrup from the vet. Does that sound right? :? My instinct would be to just give hay only for 24 hours. She also suggest brambles, but Josie was already eating brambles every day, so that hasn't helped.

I'm confused. They sound more like remedies for diarrhoea. Surely this cecal problem is different from diarrhoea? Diarrhoea is sloppy poop, not sloppy cecals? Isn't it? Help!
 
She's done some more. :( But she's so perky, nothing like when she was hospitalised.

Lovely pic...

Poop1b.jpg
 
They look like regular cecals to me, perhaps a little wetter though.

Have you actually asked a vet?

The rescue suggesting over the counter human medicine without the consent of a vet sounds very iffy to me.
 
GrahamL said:
They look like regular cecals to me, perhaps a little wetter though.
Click to expand...

Hmm, her usual ones are a lot darker, the grape like bits are smaller, they're firmer and they don't usually smell. :?

Could this just be a natural variation? I did panic over the cloudy urine for no reason recently! :oops:
 
Captain Helen said:
Hmm, her usual ones are a lot darker, the grape like bits are smaller, they're firmer and they don't usually smell. :?

Could this just be a natural variation? I did panic over the cloudy urine for no reason recently! :oops:
Click to expand...

What is EXACTLY her diet?

And did you see the rest of my post? (Sorry, i edited it after posting :oops:)
 
GrahamL said:
What is EXACTLY her diet?

And did you see the rest of my post? (Sorry, i edited it after posting :oops:)
Click to expand...

Sorry, yes, I've seen it now. The vet has recommended a hay only diet for 24 hours and see what happens.

Her diet for the first week after she came home from the vet was hay and pellets only, for the last week I've given her hay, 2 egg cups of Excel pellets a day and hawthorn and brambles in the evening.

The first week I kept her inside, this week she's been out in her run during the day, which is on grass.

I guess my problem is that I'm torn between the vet's advice and the rescue's advice. And the bit I'm confused about is where diarrhoea comes from, is it normal poops gone runny, or cecals gone runny? (I bet that sounds like such a dumb question! :oops:)
 
Captain Helen said:
Sorry, yes, I've seen it now. The vet has recommended a hay only diet for 24 hours and see what happens.

Her diet for the first week after she came home from the vet was hay and pellets only, for the last week I've given her hay, 2 egg cups of Excel pellets a day and hawthorn and brambles in the evening.

The first week I kept her inside, this week she's been out in her run during the day, which is on grass.

I guess my problem is that I'm torn between the vet's advice and the rescue's advice. And the bit I'm confused about is where diarrhoea comes from, is it normal poops gone runny, or cecals gone runny? (I bet that sounds like such a dumb question! :oops:)
Click to expand...

I'd personally listen to the vets.

Also, excel pellets have been known to cause excess cecal material, is there a possibility of changing that to SS at all?

I'm sure its probably not diarrhoea - as if it was, it would be an EMERGENCY, its probably sloppy cecals.

If grass is new to her also, it could be that - as its new to her, so shuold be treated like a new food - introduced a little and slowly.

I think going back to basics is a good idea and slowly work up from there, introducing one thing at a time, so you can determine what may be tghe cause from there, obviously with yuor vets guidance.
 
GrahamL said:
I'd personally listen to the vets.

Also, excel pellets have been known to cause excess cecal material, is there a possibility of changing that to SS at all?

I'm sure its probably not diarrhoea - as if it was, it would be an EMERGENCY, its probably sloppy cecals.

If grass is new to her also, it could be that - as its new to her, so shuold be treated like a new food - introduced a little and slowly.

I think going back to basics is a good idea and slowly work up from there, introducing one thing at a time, so you can determine what may be tghe cause from there, obviously with yuor vets guidance.
Click to expand...

Yes, perhaps it was the grass. There was quite a lot of it as she hadn't been out in the run for so long! The first couple of days she had only had grass as a new food though, before I introduced the hawthorn and brambles, and she was fine then. Could it be too much hawthorn?

I was going to try changing her over to SS. It's nothing like when I found her in the pool of diarrhoea. She's alert and bouncy and munching hay. I would rush her back if the diarrhoea came back.

I think I'm just extra cautious with her as she was so very ill. The vet said it would be OK to introduce veg after a week, but I haven't dared risk it.
 
I'd suggest the grass, especially if you've had some rain in the last couple of weeks. New growth grass is notorious for causing mucky bum in other herbivours too - eg sheep.
It's getting them used to it very slowly indeed.

Please don't give her human medicine. You are absolutely right this is a caecal dysbiosis issue not a "diarrhoea issue". IMO Kaolin or immodium could cause stasis or a block elsewhere in the gut.

That caecal isn't too bad, hay only diet for a few days should sort it for you.
I'm not the most experienced on here but haven't half got probs with dysbiosis in a bun with an almost paralysed caecum. I would say that once a bun has had the severity of dysbiosis you describe at the vets, it takes a very long time of meticulous attention to keeping the gut moving with various types of fiber to get them to a state where it doesn't relapse incredibly easily.

Take heart, you're doing great, :thumb: Small relapses are inevitable at this stage. It's a really difficult situation cos she needs the extra nutrient to put on weight but this makes the dysbiosis worse. Some people find that protexin pellets help.
Personally I use SS for Thumper. Excell always give him a mucky bum as does Critical care so I mush up his SS when he needs extra help. ;)
 
thumps_ said:
I'd suggest the grass, especially if you've had some rain in the last couple of weeks. New growth grass is notorious for causing mucky bum in other herbivours too - eg sheep.
It's getting them used to it very slowly indeed.

Please don't give her human medicine. You are absolutely right this is a caecal dysbiosis issue not a "diarrhoea issue". IMO Kaolin or immodium could cause stasis or a block elsewhere in the gut.

That caecal isn't too bad, hay only diet for a few days should sort it for you.
I'm not the most experienced on here but haven't half got probs with dysbiosis in a bun with an almost paralysed caecum. I would say that once a bun has had the severity of dysbiosis you describe at the vets, it takes a very long time of meticulous attention to keeping the gut moving with various types of fiber to get them to a state where it doesn't relapse incredibly easily.

Take heart, you're doing great, :thumb: Small relapses are inevitable at this stage. It's a really difficult situation cos she needs the extra nutrient to put on weight but this makes the dysbiosis worse. Some people find that protexin pellets help.
Personally I use SS for Thumper. Excell always give him a mucky bum as does Critical care so I mush up his SS when he needs extra help. ;)
Click to expand...

I'm so glad you've seen this! Thank you! :wave:

Do you think the original 'diarrhoea' that she was hospitalised for was coming from the caecum? I'm getting confused about which poop is which! It's something I've never thought about before with healthy buns. As she was at the vets for the worst of it I couldn't tell. The first few days she came home the normal poos were misshaped but I rarely saw a special poo.

She started leaving them after being on the grass for a few days, but the same day I started feeding hawthorn, which confused me. I guess I need to be less concerned about the weight gain at this point and more concerned about getting her guts working properly. Then the weight gain will follow naturally.

I suspect this is a problem she's had for a while and the reason she was dumped in the first place. :(
 
That pic is like what Fudge is doing :? Hoping its going to improve when I have switched from rabbit royale to science selective. Hope your bun improves soon too :)
 
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