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Snuffles meds! (and dental issues) UD P20

nessar

Warren Veteran
Well Barney has been sneezing again so we are off to the vets tomorrow morning, he also has a messy bum which I'll post about later...

I want to be prepared, as in the past they have only offered me Baytril and something else we never had to use, I cant remember the name.

Bisolvon seems to bring it under control generally, so he's on that everyday longterm. It's normally just runny eyes but now we have had some sneezing fits, he woke me up from my nap with one - I counted nearly 20 sneezes :(

I havent had a C&S test done as of yet, as I dont want him going under GA after how bad he was after his dental last time, but I'm going to discuss it with the vet anyway. I was hoping to wait till he needs another dental and kill two birds with one stone, but that could be months (hopefully).

So... what snuffles meds have you used, what are they (antibiotics etc?) and were they any good?

I want to go in armed with info!
 
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He doesn't need to necessarily go under a GA to have a C&S test - Ginger had hers done 100% consciously.

It's the best way for a vet to know what bacteria they are fighting, as they will know which ABx it is susceptible to.

List of meds we've tried;

Baytril (oral) - useless
Septrin (oral) - useless
Depocillin (sub cut Injections) - worked, but couldnt win, only hold at bay.
Zithromax (Azithromycin) (Oral) - Current (1.2ml/daily) - working so far... *fingers crossed*

Daily metacam, currently 1.0ml/day split into 2x 0.5ml doses. Acts as an anti-inflammatory, not just pain relief.

Nebulising Saline/Baytril or other meds can also be used.
 
I think the key thing with snuffles is to understand why it's happening - for instance is it due to overgrown tooth roots (in which case maybe you're never going to get rid of it) or is it just a simple infection which could be completely got rid of with an aggressive course of antibiotics. Does he have discharge when he sneezes and if so what colour is it - sometimes you see it on his nose or does he have discoloured/matted paws where he's been wiping his nose?

If you're reluctant to have him GA'd at the moment, it might be worth discussing whether a conscious tear duct flush could be undertaken, collecting the exudate as it pours out of the nose and sending this for C&S and cytology analysis. You may be lucky that it shows up something on C&S, but even if it doesn't, the cytology may give you a better idea as to what is going on.

A head x-ray would also be really useful in determining what's going on up in his skull, and if he already has dental issues I would suspect that there may be tooth root overgrowth which could be contributing to his problem.

Santa used to have metacam (for its anti-inflammatory rather than pain killing properties), bisolvon, and I used to nebulise her and give her echinacea drops when she got bad. I used many antibiotics over the years, it's a bit difficult to say what will work because it depends on what the problem is and why it's there. Santa's problem was tooth root overgrowth and metronidazole used to work brilliantly to keep it under control, because the sorts of bacteria in boney infections tend to be anaerobic. But metronidazole is ineffecive against pasteurella, so it won't work if it's a "straightforward" respiratory tract infection of that sort. Other options might be tetracyclines (engemycin/terramycin LA injections - every 3 days), penicillin (injected only) or septrin (oral - and banana flavoured so often easy to give!), for instance.

But again it really depends on what the problem is - a C&S in some form is definitely the way to go, and I would say that the sooner you do it the better. Having had a snuffly Santa for several years, I have to say it was so frustrating to be constantly trying different antibiotics, and if the problem gets chronic, it can be difficult to get them off the antibiotic for long enough to get a decent C&S sample. The frustrating thing, though, is that they don't always pick up the problem bacteria - we never managed to get a positive culture out of Santa even though we knew she had infections. But it's definitely worth persisting as I'm certain her treatment regime would have been more effective more quickly if we'd had a clearer understanding earlier on.

Good luck xx
 
I think the key thing with snuffles is to understand why it's happening - for instance is it due to overgrown tooth roots (in which case maybe you're never going to get rid of it) or is it just a simple infection which could be completely got rid of with an aggressive course of antibiotics. Does he have discharge when he sneezes and if so what colour is it - sometimes you see it on his nose or does he have discoloured/matted paws where he's been wiping his nose?

If you're reluctant to have him GA'd at the moment, it might be worth discussing whether a conscious tear duct flush could be undertaken, collecting the exudate as it pours out of the nose and sending this for C&S and cytology analysis. You may be lucky that it shows up something on C&S, but even if it doesn't, the cytology may give you a better idea as to what is going on.

A head x-ray would also be really useful in determining what's going on up in his skull, and if he already has dental issues I would suspect that there may be tooth root overgrowth which could be contributing to his problem.

Santa used to have metacam (for its anti-inflammatory rather than pain killing properties), bisolvon, and I used to nebulise her and give her echinacea drops when she got bad. I used many antibiotics over the years, it's a bit difficult to say what will work because it depends on what the problem is and why it's there. Santa's problem was tooth root overgrowth and metronidazole used to work brilliantly to keep it under control, because the sorts of bacteria in boney infections tend to be anaerobic. But metronidazole is ineffecive against pasteurella, so it won't work if it's a "straightforward" respiratory tract infection of that sort. Other options might be tetracyclines (engemycin/terramycin LA injections - every 3 days), penicillin (injected only) or septrin (oral - and banana flavoured so often easy to give!), for instance.

But again it really depends on what the problem is - a C&S in some form is definitely the way to go, and I would say that the sooner you do it the better. Having had a snuffly Santa for several years, I have to say it was so frustrating to be constantly trying different antibiotics, and if the problem gets chronic, it can be difficult to get them off the antibiotic for long enough to get a decent C&S sample. The frustrating thing, though, is that they don't always pick up the problem bacteria - we never managed to get a positive culture out of Santa even though we knew she had infections. But it's definitely worth persisting as I'm certain her treatment regime would have been more effective more quickly if we'd had a clearer understanding earlier on.

Good luck xx

Thanks, I had an xray done when he needed his dental and tooth roots are fine. The vet thinks from listening to his breathing (its sort of grunty/raspy when hes stressed at the vets) that he has some scarring in his lungs due to chronic or untreated infections in the past (I've only had him for a year, he's around 3).

I've never seen discharge when he sneezes, and his nose is normally dry but sometimes damp, although he does clean straight after his sneezing fits. He's got a bit of a yellowy nose (hes white) so I assume he gets a small amount of discharge but it must only be a little. He doesnt have matted paws.

The vet reckons it is chronic and he'll have it for the rest of his life, and that it is best to treat flare-ups as and when they occur, but he seems quite complacent about it. I understand why as the symptoms are so mild (just runny eyes, no gunk) and he seems fine in himself. I tried to get a second opinion from a different vets practice but they wouldnt even discuss it unless I actually changed everything over to them and had all his notes forwarded. I'm going to see a different vet at my current practice tomorrow and shes been reccommended to me for small animals by a rescue, so I hope I can get the ball rolling to a more proactive approach.

Is it common for C&S tests to come back negative or inconclusive? And how long do they take to get results?
 
He doesn't need to necessarily go under a GA to have a C&S test - Ginger had hers done 100% consciously.

It's the best way for a vet to know what bacteria they are fighting, as they will know which ABx it is susceptible to.

List of meds we've tried;

Baytril (oral) - useless
Septrin (oral) - useless
Depocillin (sub cut Injections) - worked, but couldnt win, only hold at bay.
Zithromax (Azithromycin) (Oral) - Current (1.2ml/daily) - working so far... *fingers crossed*

Daily metacam, currently 1.0ml/day split into 2x 0.5ml doses. Acts as an anti-inflammatory, not just pain relief.

Nebulising Saline/Baytril or other meds can also be used.

Thanks, apart from the metacam are they all antibiotics?

I will ask about getting it done conciously, thats an idea.
 
Thanks, apart from the metacam are they all antibiotics?

I will ask about getting it done conciously, thats an idea.

Yup :)

Its important to find the root cause, whether that be tooth roots, or other reasons etc. :)

Good Luck!
 
Mini hijack :D thank you for these meds! I've written them down to discuss with the vets so I don't get landed with expensive rubbish again! Also getting dog metacam after her next dental.. Cat stuff did nothing for her :(

I hope your bunny is okay! x
 
Thanks everyone, really not sure whats going on with him at the moment, today he has a wet face/chin down one side, I thought he just tripped over the bowl as he sometimes does, but just saw him now drink whilst tipping his head sideways in the bowl, like he was drinking from the side of his mouth. That's not snuffles related is it? Its really odd. Guess thats another thing to get checked tomorrow.

Forgot to ask- How does a tear duct flush work exactly? And does it help with symptoms at all? And what would the cytology tell me, what bacteria it is?
 
Also getting dog metacam after her next dental.. Cat stuff did nothing for her :(

It's exactly the same stuff, so it won't make a jot of difference whether you have dog or cat if your vets are calculating the same dose rate! It might be worth checking what dose they are prescribing, as the recommendations for metacam in bunnies was upped within the past year or so :)

Nessar - drinking down one side, if the head isn't tilted at other times, could perhaps be because of a dental issue. Maybe he's finding it more comfortable to move his tongue or mouth on one side? Is he sitting normally while eating?

Tear duct flush could help, again depending on what and where the problem is. Actually thinking about it, eye drops can sometimes help too, as they drain down the tear ducts and into the nose - although mostly I guess they will drain out rather than get to where the infection is. For a tear duct flush, I think they put local anaesthetic into the eye and aim a narrow tube down the top of the tear duct, before flushing saline solution through it. This clears out any goo in the tube and can also clear it from the nose. When Santa had it done one time, it took over 50ml of fluid before all the goo stopped coming out of her nose :shock: so depending on where the infection is, it can help to loosen and remove some of the goo. It's not something I'm a huge fan of generally, as it can sometimes cause more harm than good, but used appropriately I think it's jolly useful.

Cytology is an examination of the cells. So it won't tell you what the bacteria is, but it will tell you what any goo that gets washed out of the nose consists of. So with Santa it showed up a lot of inflammatory tissue, allergen tissue and a lot of white blood cells, which then helped us to devise an appropriate treatment plan.
 
Buckley's C&S was completely 100% conscious :)
Before the C&S we were using Septrin. Which was useless. The C&S showed the bacteria were sensitive to baytril and penicillin.
So we're using baytril which seems to be doing the trick (touch wood).

Without a C&S it's like playing russian roulette with abx.
I would ask for a C&S. That way you'll hopefully find out a. the bacteria involved and b. what kills said bacteria.

xo
 
Also hijacked :) as Munchkin has had the baytril, tear duct flush, dental and c&s and we are deciding what's next. :( Poor little mite.

Hope you get some good results nessar.
 
Well I am back from the vets and Barney is feeling very sorry for himself! He had an otoscope in his mouth and a swab up his nose today (not at the same time!).

Should get the C&S results back Monday or Tuesday, hopefully they'll be able to grow something and we'll be able to choose a suitable antibiotic. The vet didnt seem to want to do it though, she said its most likely pasturella anyway. I felt like she did it more to humour me :?

Symptoms developed last night though, odd shaped poops and a few uneaten caceotrophs (sp?). Messy bum + drinking funny + odd poops + uneaten cacs seem to point to dental problems, but she said she couldnt see anything. And last time (April) he stopped eating his hay as soon as he got little spurs, but if anything hes been eating more these last couple of days.

eta - forgot to say she said it could be an infection, which the antibiotics next week should help with, but if not they might put him under GA to get a better look at his teeth :(
 
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Well I am back from the vets and Barney is feeling very sorry for himself! He had an otoscope in his mouth and a swab up his nose today (not at the same time!).

Should get the C&S results back Monday or Tuesday, hopefully they'll be able to grow something and we'll be able to choose a suitable antibiotic. The vet didnt seem to want to do it though, she said its most likely pasturella anyway. I felt like she did it more to humour me :?

Symptoms developed last night though, odd shaped poops and a few uneaten caceotrophs (sp?). Messy bum + drinking funny + odd poops + uneaten cacs seem to point to dental problems, but she said she couldnt see anything. And last time (April) he stopped eating his hay as soon as he got little spurs, but if anything hes been eating more these last couple of days.

That sounds suspiciously like dental issues :(

Vet won't be able to see anything without bun going under for a GA and xray if necessary.
 
That sounds suspiciously like dental issues :(

Vet won't be able to see anything without bun going under for a GA and xray if necessary.

I know, it does, doesnt it :(

Although I think the messy bum is more wee than poo possibly :?

I really hope he doesnt have to be put under GA :( guess we dont know till we look at them. He had an xray done in April that showed the roots of his teeth are fine, thats not something that can change can it? Or would the xray pick up other problems too?

Looks like I'm gonna be living on beans on toast this month :lol:
 
I know, it does, doesnt it :(

Although I think the messy bum is more wee than poo possibly :?

I really hope he doesnt have to be put under GA :( guess we dont know till we look at them. He had an xray done in April that showed the roots of his teeth are fine, thats not something that can change can it? Or would the xray pick up other problems too?

Looks like I'm gonna be living on beans on toast this month :lol:

It *could* change, yes.

An xray could show up all sorts i would assume. It may just be a spur right at the back, it can be tiny, but be enough to stop them wanting to eat all together (Boudiccas Dudley) or slow down, drink more, have mucky bum etc etc.

SOrry it wasn't better news :(
 
Update:
Hmm, a week on and the C&S results arent back, is this normal?

Barney's snuffles flare up has calmed down by itself and his usual bisolvon, we are having the odd sneeze but no sneezing fits now.

Still drinking funny, and he is prefering to use a bottle to his bowl. He is also drinking a lot less, which isnt worrying me too much as he drank way too much anyway (1-1.5 litres in 24 hours between them, and Annabella drinks hardly anything). Not sure what we're going through now, around 500-750ml maybe?

Hay intake is still fine. Dirty bum hasnt got any worse, but I cant clean it as he goes mental if I try to baby-wipe him and I dont want to bathe him again because of the stress, which would make the snuffles worse :? catch 22. Theres not any actual poo on him, just dirty fur. He's been flyguarded (not rear guarded) and I'm doing lots of bumchecks.
 
Barnsley was a snuffle bun and had a drug called Ranoxin and i put echenechia in his drinking water. he adopted me in Feb 09 and by easter that year he was off meds (i kept the echenechia for a month or two).

em x
 
Update:
Hmm, a week on and the C&S results arent back, is this normal?

Yep, it usually takes between 1-2 weeks, because they've got to 'grow' the stuff (if there's anything they can isolate) and then work out what it is and what antibiotics work on it - it can take some time.

I wonder if the drinking from a bottle is because it's easier for him to breathe - his airways could be a bit clearer if he has his nose pointed up towards a bottle rather than down towards a bowl, I know when I've got a blocked nose from a cold it's sometimes easier to breathe if I tip my head back. Glad he's feeling a bit perkier for the moment, anyway :)
 
The C&S test hasnt grown anything :( I went into the vets today and they called the lab. They are going to keep trying though, in case anything does grow.

Its so frustrating not knowing even what we're fighting.

He's still prefering to drink from the bottle rather than the bowl, so I cant tell if hes drinking funny still, but I think the very fact hes prefering a bottle tells me something isnt right. Like you said it may be snuffles related. I can hear his breathing too when I pick him up.

Other than that his bums still a bit messy but I dont know whether to bathe him :? as I'm sure the stress of bathing him contributed to the snuffles flair up last time. Its not getting any worse and its barely noticable (just some stained/dirty fur by his bum) but he still smells :? he smells unneutered, its so odd.
 
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