muscle wasting? UPDATE

ok Im getting very worried and I am hoping someone here will tell me its nothing.
I have posted on here before about my 5.5 year old rex female Ellie who has started to pee in rrandom places in her hutch.

I took her to the vet who could find nothing wrong with her but gave me a 10 day course of Bactryl and took a urine sample to check for a UTI. he kept her in for 2 days to get this sample so got a decent look at her over this time.
The vet called me this am to say that the urinalysis had come back negative.

I told him that I am still concerned as I think Ellie has started wasting a bit, even though she weighs the same as she always has (2.6kg)

So I have an appointment for Friday for Ellie to go back in and have some bloods taken.

However tonight she has let me strokeher for the first time in about a year. no fidgiting no squirming. simply curled up and let me stroke her. If I miss her head she repositions herself to make sure i start from the head....

I think I can feel part of her spine slightly more but cant be sure as I havent had the opportunity to stroke her like this.

She still seems to be eating/drinking/peeing/pooping.

Am I right to be worried that she is wanting more attention? or am i over reacting???

I feel for you. I am going through much the same thing with my 4 year old Holland lop male, Mimzy.
He's been weeing in corners in his night pen for almost a month now and is also looking like he is wasting away to me. I've taken in two urine samples to my vet, he's been seen numerous times, just had his teeth done, is on Baytril for a nick the dental drill put in his mouth, he's had x-rays that show he has some mild arthritis brewing in his back legs, but other than that nothing is found to be wrong. He's been weighed over a period of months and found to actually have gained almost a pound, but he hardly eats enough to get by each day in my opinion. The back of his neck and spine and hips, they all seem to stick out to me or look too thin, but if he is developing arthritis he shouldn't be allowed to get too heavy. Even so, he is definitely less active than he has ever been in his life with me.
His left rear leg muscles are measured on the x-ray and they are thinner than the ones on the right, so that is a leg he is favoring. He kind of drags his back legs around his run or pen, he used to have a nice sleeping shelf in his night pen, but we can't use it anymore because he was starting to crash down his ramp, and then I saw him actually fall back from it trying to jump up on it one night, so I removed it completely. His spine is intact though, so there is nothing there to worry about.

Mimzy's been a slower-moving bun than my other two for the last two years, but he at least used to have more spunk than he does these days. As of today, I'm still trying to figure out if it's some nutritional deficiency, genetic abnormalities, infection (he's always had this runny nose, so I'd wanted him tested for E.C.) or just plain old age that is starting to catch up with him.

Holland lops and Mini-rexes are on the low end of the scale when it comes to length of life from what I've researched, but I just can't accept that Mimzy is a senior bun. I keep thinking it is something that I am doing wrong.

I completely sympathize with what you are going through. I wish I had answers as well, but for now, just know you're not alone in this with your bun. And good for you that you are getting so much quality time with Ellie, that is something I wish I had more of with Mimzy, but he is still wild enough that if I try to snuggle with him, I usually just wind up either getting peed on or nipped and foot flicked. :roll:

I feel that, with bunny health, there's nothing wrong with pursuing a diagnosis as long as it is not overly distressing the bun. I've considered kidney problems for Mimzy, as that would cause wasting, but the tests don't support that. Sometimes however a test needs to be run more than once, or be sent to special labs to find something awry.

I hope Ellie is just mellowing with age and that all will be well with her soon. (((((((((((((healing vibes)))))))))))))))))))))))

P.S. I might add that my mini-rex male is right at 3 pounds and I still can feel his spine also, but he's about 8 months younger, approximately, than Mimzy. So no, I don't think you're over-reacting about Ellie's weight. And yes, it's always just a bit alarming when a normally feisty bunny is suddenly very cuddly. However, I'd look at it as a good thing as long as the bun isn't acting in a sickly manner.

No i think youre totally right to be worried. Make sure tgey check his bloods for EC.

Good luck toyou and your bun :wave:

EC was the first thing that sprang to my mind too Im afraid. Has the vet explored that route?

sorry guys but what is EC? I just want to make sure the v et checks for it tomorrow

ec is a parasite that can affect the brain pannacurr and metacam are the treatments for 28days, it can have a very wid erange of symtoms and its full name is encephailtozoon cuniculli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalitozoon_cuniculi
i had a rabbit with ec before she had a limp weight loss random peeing and then as time went on hind leg issues in both legs, siezures and urinary incontinance, some of these can be reversed and if your bun does have ec then prompt treatment of all your bunnies with 28 day course of pannacur can and celaning thouroughly everything can stop its spread xx

i have just read the posting and am starting to feel very guilty...

We have mice that come in and steal ellies food. They come for a while, I kill them off and then after a bit they return... if ellie has EC could she have caught it from them?

Also how can I get rid of the mice once and for all? I take Ellies food away at night and leave her with her hay.

Would EC affect her appetite? She doesnt really eat a lot of pellets for a few reasons.
1) I take away her food at night and this is when she used to eat her pellets. I do leave her some in her sleeping area.
2) I do wonder if my parents sneak her extra veggies as they seem to spoil her

My other concern is Furby, her sister, died suddenly last October. She was acting normally and nothing was different, except she has started peeing outside her box (atleast I think it was her). I feel bad as I didnt know about her incontinence as I was at work and my dad didnt think much of it...

sorry to hear ellie is poorly.

hopefully someone with a bit more ec knowledge will be along soon xx

ok a little update. I was speaking to my mum who was actually surprised that Ellie was letting me stroke her as even this morning she was running away when my mum tried...

I am wondering if she is now letting me stroke her as she sees me stroking Gizmo a lot.

When I had them both in separate hutches inside the house (just after Furby died) Ellie saw how I storked Gizmo and then would sit and demand attenion herself! that was after 5 years of hatingme even touching her.....

The stroking could be a comfort thing if she isnt well or a lack of energy to run away. You definately need to do something about the mice, Im not sure if they can spread EC but they do carry other diseases. YOu can get humane traps, once they are gone you need to block off anywhere they were nesting

Yes EC can effect appetite. I think its important that you get your bun to a good rabbit vet asap and discuss the possibility of EC and treatment as the sooner you treat the less damage it can do

Re your bun that died suddenly are they vaccs for both vhd and mxy?

they both received their vaccinations on time.
with regards to the mice we cant block them off as they have burrowed deep into tree/bush areas. its really annoying as we dont want them anywhere near the bunnies but also fear that they will start coming into the house.

Im on my way to drop ellie off at the vets so will discuss the possiblity of EC just now.

are they little field mice? they are harmless in fact we have a family also and they have been their years with no problems. I actually feed them throwing a little bird seed down for them or cornflakes they are great fun to watch and my buns Winston and angel love them. In fact since losing winston angel has went looking for them and yesterday she was cuddling up to a mouse! cute

Ec is a parasite tht every rabbit already hasd inside their brain but they need something to trigger it off such as stress after an injection. It can be passed from comtaminated bunnies from the wee usually bringing anew bun into your home who has ec already or a mother to baby.

We just lost our winston who was a rex his back end had gone, our vet was treating him for ec although I said its his back. 10weeks he was treat for ec until finally our vet done xrays to reveal his hip had gone and he was put on high pain relief. His back end was really thin esp looking back at photos. So please continue if your worried to press the vet.
But however once you leave the vets surgery stop worrying until the next app and live for each day you have with bun 'just incase' cuddle them more than ever and spend each day happy (as best you can with worry) so that if the time does come (not that im saying it is) youknow you wouldn't have changed a thing!
I cant help with what the problem may be possibly just old age but enjoy those tickles!

thanks guys for all of your help and lovely messages:wave:

I went out to get Ellie for her appointment and I think she realises if I come out that early it means she has a little trip to the vets. She was happily sleeping and then got really annoyed and stomped her feet at least 5 times.....:lol:

All the vets I go to at the practice are pretty rabbit savvy I think. They help set up the new small animal hospital in Glasgow and are on the commitees etc.

I asked about EC but he doesnt think it is that. however I have insisted that since they are going to sedate Ellie anyway to get some blood we may as well test her.
I should hopefully know the results of her basic blood tests this pm so fingers crossed. He also suspects possible diabetes....

Also she was weighed today and was 2.53kg. Previously she was 2.6kg.
Since I was concerned he checked her previous records and she has always fluctuated between 2.5-2.6kg.....

this might sound stupid but how do i know if they are field mice or not?

Did he say why he doesnt think its EC? Did he say what he thinks it is?

Hi webble,

he went into the pathology of EC and said that she should be showing other neurological signs such as lack of co ordination head tilt parasthesia etc. he said that neither he nor the other vet have seen any signs of this when she has been in. he also said that her peeing outside of her litter box could be due to a number of reasons and its unlikely that it is EC.

However they are going to be checking her full blood count and if her WCC is elevated and since I keep annoying him about EC then he could start her on the course for it but again said that if it was it wouldnt reverse her incontinence etc but would stop the halt of it.

if partial incontinecnce is all she is left with if it is EC then I think we can cope with that

ok slight update. Ellie is back from the vet. The initial bloods show that her glucose is high so possible diabetes.... its a shame they didnt dip her urine last week so now I need to collect some mre from her litter tray to dip.

he has also sent away bloods for an EC titre..

Does anyone here have a rabbit with diabetes? how difficult is the management?

ok so I have been thinking about this.

1) she has drunk maybe 100 ml of water in the last 2-3 days? so no excessive drinking.
2) she eats all her veggies immediately, in fact she sits at the bottom level of her hutch waiting for them
she gets 6-7 pea pods, some coriander, a small piece of carrot (which I will stop) some bean stick things and leaves.
3) she tends not to eat her pellets during the day as she sleeps during the day (she has done this since she was a baby)
4) she does tend to stay in her hutch more now but this started when Furby died and she hasnt had anyone to run around with
5) she loves her herbal treats and waits for it every evening.
6) i dont know if she is peeing more. at the vets she was in all day as her bladder wasnt full
7) she isnt actually losing weight, I just thought she looked like her muscles were wasting slightly

what else could it be?

Diabetes is unlikely in rabbits, high sugar in bloods is common if they are stressed which they are usually in a vet.
Personally I would be getting x-rays to check for either arthritis or spondylosis. These can affect all these things and it may be why she is more willing for a cuddle- can't be bother to move as it is sore.

damn I didnt ask for xrays.

would you still suspect arthritis if she still runs about and binkies.
also she has a ramp in her hutch and she never seems to have any issues with it.....

I really dont want it to be diabetes...she def will not love me for injecting her everyday..

she definately didnt want cuddles this morning.....:?

It is not likely to be diabetes.

It may not be arthritis but I would certainly ask your vet of the possibilities, they may be able to feel changes by manipulation, another possibility is to put her on metacam for a couple of weeks and see if she improves.
If you have sent off an E.c. sample and it comes back negative I would look into getting x-rays to check.