abscesses in very elderly rabbit

Hi, I've had a pretty much charmed life with my 2 bunnies Tom and Jerry. They're about 15 years old, and have had very few health problems, but a few weeks ago Jerry developed a sore, swollen, watery eye. Vet thought tooth abscess, and gave Baytril and eye drops. 2 days later an abscess burst out of his eye in quite dramatic fashion, which must have made him a lot more comfortable, but 3 weeks later it's still discharging, and he has developed a new abscess on his cheek, and has a swelling on his stomach which I think is also an abscess, as it came up so quickly. Had a bit of an issue with vet, as didn't see same one each time. First vet didn't like long term antibiotic, so stopped the Baytril at end of course even though problem clearly wasn't resolved. Next vet restarted, and said long term antibiotics was pretty much the only chance for a rabbit this age, and to continue for 3 weeks providing he was eating and behaving normally.
So he is eating (we are now damping down their pellets to help the old teeth - don't know why we never thought of that earlier, seems really obvious now!), and compared to how he was before the first abscess burst, he's more like himself. Difficult to say how uncomfortable he is, or whether he is back to normal. He's a very old rabbit, and so he's going to spend a lot of time just relaxing, although prior to the sore eye, he was certainly a lot more active, and our main problem was stopping him from relentless humping of his brother. That has completely stopped now, and he behaves more like Tom, spending much of the day snoozing.
My question is, what hope is there of a good outcome here? Clearly I don't want Jerry to end his very long and happy life with several months of feeling poorly and unhappy, but on the other hand, I want to give him the best possible chance of recovering. I have no experience of rabbits other than these 2, and pretty much no experience of rabbit illness. If he's still eating, is that enough to indicate that it's worth carrying on? I do not think that operating is a realistic option in this case.
Second question - is there really no approved pain killer for rabbits? Jerry has had 2 injections of metacam, but vet couldn't give me anything to take home. Surely managing pain could go a long way to making his life better if it's going to take weeks for these abscesses to (possibly) cure?

Im afraid your vet does not sound experienced treating rabbits. What area are you in? If you start a new thread entitled something like 'vet recommendation in **** area' I'm sure someone can recommended a vet. Baytril is often not strong enough for many things. I've never encountered abcesses but my vet goes straight to injectable penicillin for snuffles. Also there is metacam oral which can be prescribed so that sounds fishy what the vet told you.

Only yourself with a qualified vet can really come to a decision regarding PTS but personally I'd want to have a good chat with an experienced rabbit vet first.

It was my horse vet who told me there was no painkiller for rabbits. My understanding is that metacam isn't licensed for rabbits in the uk, so possibly that's why the other vet wouldn't prescribe?
Although I would never trust my horses to a non equine vet, it never occurred to me to look for a rabbit specialist vet. I'll ask about.

Rabbits are classed as exotic animals, strangely enough, and most regular vets only know basic information about them.
Metacam or Loxicom are dog/cat painkillers but they can be used in rabbits, although rabbits need a much higher dose for their body weight compared to dogs and cats. It can be given by syringe or measured with a syringe and hidden in food. It's not licenced for rabbits so my vets give me a form to sign to say I understand it isn't licenced but that I'm happy to use it.

I think if you can find a good vet who knows a lot about rabbits they should be able to advise you further. Abscesses in rabbits are horrible. They're not like abscesses in other animals because the body forms a thick wall around them and the puss is thick and more like cream cheese. Sorry if that was a bit too much information. Rabbit stomachs are very sensitive to antibiotics and one of the only safe oral antibiotics is Baytril, but it's also not very strong and often can't penetrate the tick wall of abscesses to work. A lot of rabbit specialists use injectable penicillin, such as depocillin, to treat them. I have had a lot of success with this for my rabbit. I was taught how to give the injections and could do them at home myself. Penicillin is lethal if given orally though. There are other treatments but most of them involve operations and I agree that it might be unwise, considering his age.

My advice to you, and I am only an owner, not a vet, would be to find a rabbit specialist and get some long term antibiotics and long term painkillers. Make him comfortable and see where it goes. I think you'll know if he's not happy and you can make the descision then. Signs of pain in rabbits is sitting hunched in a corner, not wanting to eat and grinding their teeth while hunched up. But even then you can try upping the dose of pain killers or giving two smaller doses a day rather than one dose a day to see if he improves. I always say a loving owner knows what's best for their rabbit and I'm sure any decision you make will be the right one.

Also if you make a post in the Rabbit Chat section titles something like 'Looking for a rabbit vet in [your area]' someone might be able to recommend you a good vet.

tomrabbit said:

It was my horse vet who told me there was no painkiller for rabbits. My understanding is that metacam isn't licensed for rabbits in the uk, so possibly that's why the other vet wouldn't prescribe?
Although I would never trust my horses to a non equine vet, it never occurred to me to look for a rabbit specialist vet. I'll ask about.

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My understanding is that many meds aren't licensed for rabbits sadly but it doesn't mean they can't be given just that its a bit more of a risk.

Perhaps it's because they can, in the long term, cause kidney problems in rabbits? But this is over years so for a very old rabbit I don't think it even applies. Plus the benefits far outweigh the possible side effects as a rabbit in pain will not be a happy rabbit anyway.

my two buns are on metacam for there abcsess's, it can be extremely painful and it is also a anti inflammatory. I think when treating abcsess's the key points are stress free (keep stress minimal) , pain free (pain relief) and eat well. Then the immune system will have a better chance of fighting a infection. Please keep us updated that is a wounderful age for a bun, he sounds like a fighter to me

From recent personal experience and looking back on previous posts on here, I would expect a vet to treat rabbit abscesses by:

- surgical intervention if necessary:
-to remove or open up abscess capsule, depending on location
-to sort out teeth by burring down when required for jaw abscess

- treat with twice weekly penicillin injection (eg depocillin) in the 'scruff'
- daily oral metacam for anti-inflammatory and pain relief

Some vets allow home injections of penicillin. Most would give you a bottle of metacam to take home.

Expect the treatment to take at least 2 months.

Open abscesses can be cleaned out daily and dressed inside the hole with high UMF (eg 20+ or 25+) manuka honey - use a cotton bud or 1ml syringe.

After nearly 4 months I am finally seeing a result with a much reduced jaw abscess in one rabbit. Another has a resolved shoulder abscess following a complication after amputation. Both were monitored closely for weight loss and pain control. Both had a good quality of life during treatment and I will continue as long as required for the remaining jaw abscess, with PTS being the ultimate option should all else fail to maintain his quality of life.

I hope your beloved bun continues to get appropriate treatment and to live a long and happy life with you. 15 years is quite amazing.

Thanks for the replies - your experiences are really helpful, and I will be discussing options with the vet. I do have experience of injecting antibiotics, as I had a chicken on daily injections for 3 weeks this year :roll:, so think the vet would be ok with that. I'm going to push for the oral metacam. Although Jerry is still eating, and not sitting hunched up all the time, I do feel he is uncomfortable. The cheek abscess is massive now. The buns live in at night these days, but we put them out during the day, and this afternoon he was humping Tom, so must be feeling a little better I guess I've made an appointment with vet tomorrow, although we aren't due back for a week, to discuss options. I would love to go down the surgical route, and remove the abscesses and/or teeth, but on a rabbit of this age, I don't think it is reasonable to put him through that. I'll keep you updated.

Oh my goodness!!!!!!!
I thought my old boy was a good age at 9!!!!
15!!!!!!


Is their any way the vet would incise the abscess conscious for pain relief?

Lots of us use oral metacam and the vet can check his formulary but the dose is 0.3-0.6mg per Kg. Your vet MAY want to check his renal function but given his fabulous age you're looking at TLC.

Any chance of photos of your two old men???? (not humping tho!!!!!)

Oh maybe get some probiotics for him to keep his tum healthy if his antibiotics are longterm. Various ones available online.

Good luck xxxx

hannah.mc said:

Oh my goodness!!!!!!!
I thought my old boy was a good age at 9!!!!
15!!!!!!


Is their any way the vet would incise the abscess conscious for pain relief?

Lots of us use oral metacam and the vet can check his formulary but the dose is 0.3-0.6mg per Kg. Your vet MAY want to check his renal function but given his fabulous age you're looking at TLC.

Any chance of photos of your two old men???? (not humping tho!!!!!)

Oh maybe get some probiotics for him to keep his tum healthy if his antibiotics are longterm. Various ones available online.

Good luck xxxx

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This could be a option, mine have local anesthetic and are flushed that way, i even have some local drops too to do it at home, because my boy is elderly and has other issues like respiratory so he had a very low chance of coming through GA, this will be a good option aslong as your bun doesnt get stressed, keeping stress down is vital. My buns dont mind and they look forward to a dandelion afterwards
xx

I agree with the others, you need to get your vet to listen to this advice or you need to change vets. I have dealt with abscesses in two of my Rabbits. The second, Inca, although not elderly, is an ill bunny.
She could not really go under GA for removal. My Vet lances her abscesses and got as much of the pus out as possible. I know that the location of the abscess determines whether this can be done.

After the abscess has been lances and as much pus out, the area was cleaned out with dilute iodine. Then packed with high UMF Manuka Honey. Honestly, i cannot sing praises high enough for Manuka Honey. If at all possible to get this into the abscesses i would recommend it.

Also, the antibiotics, baytril is rotten for abscesses, you need some form of penicillan injections. I used Ceporex and found it to be great.

Then for the Metacam, no it is not licenced for Rabbits, but there are multitudes of vets that will prescribe it, you just have to sign a disclaimer. There are thousands of Rabbits on daily Metacam (mine included), yes this can potentially have effects on the Kidneys, but really, it is a small risk to take to keep your bunny feeling comfortable.

Hope you get on well at the vets x

Update

OK, been to the vet, and fessed up to becoming an internet vet myself Luckily he took it well.
He agreed new abscess in cheek (which we had spoken about on phone but he hadn't seen) is significant and extensive, and baytril wasn't going to do the trick. Reason he didn't go for penicillin first was because of the way it can damage the gut flora, but in this case he said hitting the abscesses with all guns blazing was a good approach, as surgery, even if we wanted it, may not be an option because of the site and extent of the new abscess, which doesn't seem to be connected to the original one. He gave me oral metacam, and gave Jerry a penicillin injection, and I will inject him every 2 days. He will also continue on the baytril, and we're back at vets for progress check next week.
Last time I had a bun on antibiotics, vet told me that plain old human yakult was as good as any other probiotic. Any reason not to use that?
There are some piccies on the intro board, but I'll post some new ones in a minute!

pics

Here they are! This is Jerry and Tom in their bunny basket this winter



And this is Jerry begging for treats from his mummy just a few weeks ago

Sounds like you are heading in the right direction with the treatment. I am not so sure about Yakult tho'. I have never heard of anyone using it on a bunny, so would think that it wouldn't be ok.

There are loads of bunny pro biotics that you could get from the vets, but if they are not so keen to let you have them then you could order some from Vet UK, or for quicker then you could get some Pro-C from Pets at home if there is one near you?

Sounds like a good plan with the treatment. I would be happy with that.
I'm not sure about the yakult either though.
Wishing him all the best.

With the injections, warm the syringe up in your hand first and shake it a lot. It gets quite thick and can get stuck in the needle, causing the whole thing to explode, which happens to me every now and then. If you do get it over your rabbit, clean it up with a damp cloth as well as you can because if your other rabbit ingests it it can cause problems. And good luck!