Have you ever heard of a dental bun improving when given more pellets?

I have one bun who's spurs have not come back- whom i increased pellets for due to a weight loss problem that was checked, but nothing came back. He doesn't eat hay, nor does his friend. His friend had spurs badly, but he didn't have any at all.

Has anyone ever heard of a dental bun improving with increased pellets?

Thanks

Strangely yes!
Thumper doesn't eat grass or hay he can't digest them with a naff caecum, & has dysbiosis producing toxins with his "megacolon". he needed dentals every 3 weeks throughout this winter.

About 3 months ago a new vet didn't do a dental when he needed one & we were in a heck of a mess. He lost a lot weight, so he's been eating a lot more water soaked pellets than usual.
He's just gone 6 weeks without a dental & was found to have regained weight & general condition today.

In his case I've definately reduced the dysbiosis with a herbal medicine I make - & reduced the amount of gut motility drugs he needs by 2/3.
There is a theory that spurs form because of a type of bacterial overgrowth which increases the blood supply to the tooth roots & so the teeth grow too fast. So by that theory hay isn't so much abrasive, as helps to prevent dysbiosis.
If dietary change has improved the caecal bacteria by whatever means, I guess the spurs will improve or go away.

I'm really pleased for you. Great news & fascinating post.

I find this fascinating too. Grimlock is a dental rabbit and was having dentals every month. I started feeding him on his own and he eats a lot of soggy pellets. About three heaped platefuls a day. He hasn't needed a dental for a long time now. He's possibly coming up for one soon but he only eats pellets and bread. He has never ever in the time I've had him eaten hay. So that's four years.

i think it depends on the pellets shapes as some pellets (especialyy high fibre ones which are large) a larger grinding area also if the dental problems were caused by lack of calcium or fibre originally then pellets with this in would help, my dental boys both eat hay and grass but do enjoy their pellets they dont have to have dentals too often but its difficult as every rabbit is different i would still think chopping up leaves and hay into small amounts they can manage may be benificial to a dental bunny xx

1stly. I hope that no one misunderstands me. I'm a strong advocate of hay for normal buns & the main step to treat dysbiosis.

There remain a tiny number of buns like Grimlock & Thumper when we've got to keep them alive somehow, & are driven to use alternatives not to be used for the majority of buns. I feel that having tried all other methods it is good that we can be open about it on RU. With bunnies like these the stress of getting them to eat anything is unbelievable.

I agree wholeheartedly with you bunlover that for a bun who normally eats hay but cannot do so because of dental issues chopping it up is the 1st. step, followed by adding fiber in tree/shrub leaves. There are even bunnies who don't realise that hay is food & letting them watch a good hay eater solves the issue. (We've tried this in vet hospital & I've even eaten hay in front of Thumps!)

Because Thumper's gut is so slow he usually won't drink & gets hydration issues, so I add water to his pellets until they're just pickable upable. He can't possibly get any grinding effect from them. Recently since his weight loss his staple has been dandelions with the leaf vein removed + mushy pellets. Obviously the dysbiosis gives him absorption issues too.
The last thing I expected was to double the time interval between dentals.

FHB speaks of calcium metabolism as a big factor in dental issues. I've also noticed that Thumpers urine has been less chalky recently.
There are lots of theories but no definative answer I know of.

Perhaps spurs are a bit like GI stasis - there are many different causes. I don't know.
Personally I like to see a repeating pattern many times, to exclude chance before I go "public" on here. This is only the 1st. improvement in Thumper's teeth for 21/2 years.

We have 3 very different bunnies here. All 3 seem to defy the normal remedy. It's so comforting to know that there are others out there with similar problems.

I'm doubly grateful to Ambience & Jenova for having the courage to post & to RU for not being "hard on us".
We are all good, caring, bunny mummies, with sound knowledge of a good normal rabbit diet. Our bunnies are just different.

Special bunnies need special care and special diets, perhaps it really is that simple in its basic form.

I know without RU, im sure Ginger would NOT be here.

Her mouth is a mess also, but hay and brambles hold hers at bay for ~8 weeks.

An interesting theory, which i'll watch with interest.

GrahamL said:

Special bunnies need special care and special diets, perhaps it really is that simple in its basic form.

I know without RU, im sure Ginger would NOT be here.

Her mouth is a mess also, but hay and brambles hold hers at bay for ~8 weeks.

An interesting theory, which i'll watch with interest.

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GrayhamL what many people may not know is that brambles are the old fashoned remedy for "scours" = dysbiosis. Having seen the response in several buns now, I have no doubt that they improve gut motility. I'm delighted that they are helping her dental issues also.

I would never lie, Grimlock has a horrendous diet. I was ashamed to write about it on the rabbit questionnaire from Bristol University. But the fact of the matter is, he can't eat hay or it's too painful for him to eat hay and this diet has kept him alive and happy for years. He does get excess cecals, but he often eats them later. Sometimes they get stuck to him or the floor but if that's the only side effect so far then that's great in my eyes. I would never recommend his diet to any rabbit, but Grimlock has a stable weight, his coat is glossy, he doesn't suffer from gut related issues (which I am so grateful for!) and he's a happy, snuggly bunny.

I wanted a partner for him to keep him company and also to teach him to eat hay. Samus is a fantastic hay eater but it didn't help Grimlock unfortunately. I saw him once try to eat a strand of hay and I was so excited, but I just don't think he can. I've made him hay cookies, soaked hay in apple juice, hidden hay in treats... In these situations when all other options are exhausted then I am happy for him to have the diet he does. I also think a rabbit that can't or won't eat hay should have more pellets and have them constantly available if possible. It's important for a rabbit to eat constantly, this would usually be hay but when that's not possible pellets should replace it. Having one healthy rabbit I can't leave pellets available constantly. If I did this Samus would be more of a ball and less of a rabbit and Grim wouldn't get his fill... So I have to feed him separately. I do this every four to six hours.

Anyway, that's slightly off topic.

thumps_ said:

GrayhamL what many people may not know is that brambles are the old fashoned remedy for "scours" = dysbiosis. Having seen the response in several buns now, I have no doubt that they improve gut motility. I'm delighted that they are helping her dental issues also.

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Since Poppy has started eating her pellets again she is definitely a lot better with her teeth/ mouth/ jaw. Hardly any jaw grinding now

I know this is going to sound really thick but.. What are brambles ??:shock: I need some now lol..

Poppy is a dental and is constantly up and down. Currently on a downer. Her poops are so so soft and nasty. She's eating her pellets which we are cutting down, and she eats a strand or 2 of hay (very small bits) She has never really eaten hay since we had her (4years) And god knows I have tried everything.. She can't eat greens very well unless we hold it for her or she can properly get her teeth into it (Broccoli, carrot, cauliflower. Obviously not all the time which is why we struggle) I though spring greens would be good but they just come back out of her mouth like dandelion leaves and things like that She wants to eat it but can't. She also drinks A LOT. She drinks from a bowl, and the other night it sounded as though she was sucking it up, and she drinks nearly the whole bowl. She licks up the soft poop sometimes :? and she does normal poos as well but recently it's mainly been 'slop'

If anyone has any ideas I'd be more than grateful

Brambles are blackberry plant leaves.


http://www.woodlands.co.uk/blog/plants-flowers/brambles-rubus-fructicosus/

If all she can eat are pellets I would give her as much as she wants. If she'll eat them dry then that will help with her teeth a little, but if not I soak excel junior pellets in water for Grim. Not the best pellets maybe, but they retain their shape when soaked in water and I use the junior ones as they start off small so when they swell up they don't get too big.

I have also started to give him some dried forage (Thank you Thumps_!). He won't eat it on his own, but I grind up a leaf in my hands and sprinkle it on his soggy pellets. This seems to work. He's had dandelion and plantain so far.

Jenova said:

Brambles are blackberry plant leaves.

http://www.woodlands.co.uk/blog/plants-flowers/brambles-rubus-fructicosus/

If all she can eat are pellets I would give her as much as she wants. If she'll eat them dry then that will help with her teeth a little, but if not I soak excel junior pellets in water for Grim. Not the best pellets maybe, but they retain their shape when soaked in water and I use the junior ones as they start off small so when they swell up they don't get too big.

I have also started to give him some dried forage (Thank you Thumps_!). He won't eat it on his own, but I grind up a leaf in my hands and sprinkle it on his soggy pellets. This seems to work. He's had dandelion and plantain so far.

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Ahh Thank you

I'm going to cut some hay up small and put that in her bowl She eats her pellets dry. They're the Science Selective Mature and I think that's why her poos are nasty.
'Cause they're the highest pellet in fibre I have found (22%) and she drinks a lot of water so I don't know if I should get her onto a lower fibre pellet?

A rabbits diet should be high fibre.
Grim has loads of excess poos because excel is lower in fibre and a very high protein diet. It's fine with loads of hay but not great on its own.

Aly&Poppy<3 said:

Since Poppy has started eating her pellets again she is definitely a lot better with her teeth/ mouth/ jaw. Hardly any jaw grinding now

I know this is going to sound really thick but.. What are brambles ??:shock: I need some now lol..

Poppy is a dental and is constantly up and down. Currently on a downer. Her poops are so so soft and nasty. She's eating her pellets which we are cutting down, and she eats a strand or 2 of hay (very small bits) She has never really eaten hay since we had her (4years) And god knows I have tried everything.. She can't eat greens very well unless we hold it for her or she can properly get her teeth into it (Broccoli, carrot, cauliflower. Obviously not all the time which is why we struggle) I though spring greens would be good but they just come back out of her mouth like dandelion leaves and things like that She wants to eat it but can't. She also drinks A LOT. She drinks from a bowl, and the other night it sounded as though she was sucking it up, and she drinks nearly the whole bowl. She licks up the soft poop sometimes :? and she does normal poos as well but recently it's mainly been 'slop'

If anyone has any ideas I'd be more than grateful

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:wave: Hi there.
Do you know what Poppy's tooth problems are eg no front teeth (incisors) or spikes on the back teeth (molars)
I think the 1st. thing to look at whether her teeth are making her mouth too painful to eat. (It's the drinking lots, & sucking up the water)

The nasty catch with back molars is that the vet can't see if there are spurs unless the bunny is under anaesthetic. So it means an anaesthetic on spec. We've been caught out twice - 3 different vets but all are top exotics vets. Jack's Jane's Aisling has just had similar issues.
I'm just the sort of person who wants to be sure bunny is able to eat. Then we sort out the diet.

Sometimes (rarely) a bunny's caecum can stop working completely with dysbiosis (soft special caecal poops), or food can get stuck in it =impacted caecum. I don't know why, but these buns take food into their mouth then drop it, just like when their mouth is painful. A vet can feel impaction, but not if it's just stopped working. The best test for this is ultrasound. (My own bun's caecum stopped working)

So I'd take Poppy to a rabbit (exotics) vet for a good check 1st.

Yep brambles are the same as blackberries. They even grow in cities in hedges -overgrown cemetary away from a road. A bun with a sore mouth will prefer crisp dry leaves (less chewing You can buy them on the internet but it gets kind of expensive.

thumps_ said:

:wave: Hi there.
Do you know what Poppy's tooth problems are eg no front teeth (incisors) or spikes on the back teeth (molars)
I think the 1st. thing to look at whether her teeth are making her mouth too painful to eat. (It's the drinking lots, & sucking up the water)

The nasty catch with back molars is that the vet can't see if there are spurs unless the bunny is under anaesthetic. So it means an anaesthetic on spec. We've been caught out twice - 3 different vets but all are top exotics vets. Jack's Jane's Aisling has just had similar issues.
I'm just the sort of person who wants to be sure bunny is able to eat. Then we sort out the diet.

Sometimes (rarely) a bunny's caecum can stop working completely with dysbiosis (soft special caecal poops), or food can get stuck in it =impacted caecum. I don't know why, but these buns take food into their mouth then drop it, just like when their mouth is painful. A vet can feel impaction, but not if it's just stopped working. The best test for this is ultrasound. (My own bun's caecum stopped working)

So I'd take Poppy to a rabbit (exotics) vet for a good check 1st.

Yep brambles are the same as blackberries. They even grow in cities in hedges -overgrown cemetary away from a road. A bun with a sore mouth will prefer crisp dry leaves (less chewing You can buy them on the internet but it gets kind of expensive.

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Thanks She has had bad teeth all her life but only in the past year have they got really messed up. Her front ones are like.. wonky I suppose, and her back ones get sharp but they've been okay for about a month or 2. The vet gave us 2 courses of antibiotics and metacam and the lumps that were in/on her jaw have gone (from what I can feel) She doesn't seem to be in pain when she's eating now because the pellets just used to fall out but now she eats them properly Going for her checkup soon (now the antibiotics have had time to work) and hopefully it's good news

Do you think I should stick with the SS Mature then? Going shopping tomorrow to get some more things to try for her :lol: But it's Dobbies so it's going to get expensive again :roll: Been paid today though so it's fine :lol:

I'll have a look for some brambles Plenty around here

Aly&Poppy<3 said:

Thanks She has had bad teeth all her life but only in the past year have they got really messed up. Her front ones are like.. wonky I suppose, and her back ones get sharp but they've been okay for about a month or 2. The vet gave us 2 courses of antibiotics and metacam and the lumps that were in/on her jaw have gone (from what I can feel) She doesn't seem to be in pain when she's eating now because the pellets just used to fall out but now she eats them properly Going for her checkup soon (now the antibiotics have had time to work) and hopefully it's good news

Do you think I should stick with the SS Mature then? Going shopping tomorrow to get some more things to try for her :lol: But it's Dobbies so it's going to get expensive again :roll: Been paid today though so it's fine :lol:

I'll have a look for some brambles Plenty around here

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Right I'm beginning to understand. I'd stick with what pellets she's on for the moment. With wonky front teeth she can't bite her food into small enough bits, so we have to cut it up for her. With wonky back teeth she can't grind it small enough to swallow. Yes?

If you pm me I'll send you a box of some of Thumper's dry high fiber plants if it would help. (I only dry them to get him through winter) I've alot of hay substitute dry goosegrass/cleavers/sticky bur/sticky willy.
They were great when Beccimarie's buns got infected bone from tooth abcess, because they're very brittle & don't need much chewing.

thumps_ said:

Right I'm beginning to understand. I'd stick with what pellets she's on for the moment. With wonky front teeth she can't bite her food into small enough bits, so we have to cut it up for her. With wonky back teeth she can't grind it small enough to swallow. Yes?

If you pm me I'll send you a box of some of Thumper's dry high fiber plants if it would help. (I only dry them to get him through winter) I've alot of hay substitute dry goosegrass/cleavers/sticky bur/sticky willy.
They were great when Beccimarie's buns got infected bone from tooth abcess, because they're very brittle & don't need much chewing.

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Sticky willy plants? We have LOADS of that round here. And bur and goosegrass:shock: It's okay to get it and give it to her straight away or shall I wash it first and let it dry? We have some apple sticks which she can get hold of an chew and they'll be done drying by tomorrow.

Her back teeth (the vet said) will eventually fall out and the front ones need to be burred again at some point (she said we could just have the op to take them out)
I think what she does is suck the pellet too because sometimes she drops it and it looks chewed up. You can hear her chewing it though, and you can hear her drink a lot so maybe her mouth gets dry from eating the pellets. I have no idea but I'm going to try everything lol

Aly&Poppy<3 said:

Sticky willy plants? We have LOADS of that round here. And bur and goosegrass:shock: It's okay to get it and give it to her straight away or shall I wash it first and let it dry? We have some apple sticks which she can get hold of an chew and they'll be done drying by tomorrow.

Her back teeth (the vet said) will eventually fall out and the front ones need to be burred again at some point (she said we could just have the op to take them out)
I think what she does is suck the pellet too because sometimes she drops it and it looks chewed up. You can hear her chewing it though, and you can hear her drink a lot so maybe her mouth gets dry from eating the pellets. I have no idea but I'm going to try everything lol

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Yep I try to suggest common easily recognised plants.
The plant I mean is: Gallium aparine.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&biw=1016&bih=577
I fold it over the washing line to dry & use the velcro effect to keep it there. It needs a final dry in a shed or other warmer dry place to get brittle.


:wave:The basics about getting wild plants is to be 101% sure what you're picking, & avoid contamination with traffic fumes, dog pooh, or a wild rabbit warren -common sense.
Some buns will eat stinging nettles - more fiber. pretty lupin rolls them with a rolling pin to break the sting. I use a pair of tough gloves & squeeze the underside of the leaves running my hand from base to top.
I also use greater plantain & ribwort plantain & dandelions ( a bit more difficult to get in cities.)
It's hit & miss what they'll eat but they go for what's good for them usually.
Good luck - Oooo I'd love to know if she takes to it.

I just wanted to say - this thread is very interesting...thankyou for sharing how you all cope with buns who battle to eat the norm....

Thumps - your washing line!:shock::lol::lol::lol: I love it! I cant find enough of sticky weed else mine would look the same!:lol: the buns love it so much!

Also - Thumps - would Hawthorn help Aly&Poppy<3 bun? Just thought it would be another easy plant to forage for like brambles....

chelle said:

I just wanted to say - this thread is very interesting...thankyou for sharing how you all cope with buns who battle to eat the norm....

Thumps - your washing line!:shock::lol::lol::lol: I love it! I cant find enough of sticky weed else mine would look the same!:lol: the buns love it so much!

Also - Thumps - would Hawthorn help Aly&Poppy<3 bun? Just thought it would be another easy plant to forage for like brambles....

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Oooo yes good point chelle.
Also Jenova crumbles up the dried leaves & puts them over mushy pellets for her dental bunny Grimlock, who's incredibly difficult to feed.

(The thing that makes me chuckle about my washing line is that I was so carried away with the cleavers I forgot to leave space for my pants to dry - so they're pegged on the apple tree. :lol