chloemurray
Warren Veteran
Hey, I'm currently making a video on why trancing your rabbit is bad, but could do with some more info.
And that's where you guys come in
And that's where you guys come in
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Need everyone's help RE: why it's bad to trance your rabbit!
- Thread starter chloemurray
- Start date
loppy ears
Warren Veteran
Research by Dr McBride, an animal behaviour scientist at Southampton University, shows that rabbits are more stressed when put into this position- their stress hormones and heart rates increase. So far from being relaxed as they appear, they are actually not enjoying it.
The Duchess
Wise Old Thumper
Because Trancing = Tonic Immobility and is putting the animal under so much stress that they basically 'shut down' to play dead. Heart rate soars.
Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
I hope you post the video when you're done, I'd be very interested in seeing it, if you happen to remember I would love it if you PMed me when its uup so I dont miss the thread.
Perhaps it you be useful to evaluate whether trancing should be used during stressful situations such as bum-cleaning and clipping, the idea being you either trance the rabbit and it takes 5 minutes, or you dont trance the rabbit and it takes 30 minutes and the rabbbit is constantly struggling :? It's difficult to know which would stress a rabbit less.
Perhaps it you be useful to evaluate whether trancing should be used during stressful situations such as bum-cleaning and clipping, the idea being you either trance the rabbit and it takes 5 minutes, or you dont trance the rabbit and it takes 30 minutes and the rabbbit is constantly struggling :? It's difficult to know which would stress a rabbit less.
Tuckerbunnies
Wise Old Thumper
Put it on 'You Tube'
chloemurray
Warren Veteran
I haven't really done any comparisons etc, because my target audience on youtube are young pet owners so I've kept it very simple and JUST about trancing. the rest of this comment has been deleted as someone on youtube and on here is trying to make it into something it wasn't.
ETA Tuckerbunnies, I have my own personal Youtube channel which is for my own bunnies and rabbit welfare/education etc, and then I run a collab channel with some other girls on here, which is purely for rabbit education
We have over 300 subscribers
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Mischief and Tinker's Mum
Wise Old Thumper
Great video Chloe and woooo go realrabbitcare! :lol:
and woooo go realrabbitcare! :lol:
chloemurray
Warren Veteran
wally4eva
Mama Doe
Great video Chloe
Ditto
I loved the video, very informative!
SamanthaJane
Warren Veteran
Is this a rabbit being tranced?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER8C-H7xOoc&feature=related
Sorry, I have never seen it before, and worry that when I turn my rabbits over to groom bellies, that I'm doing that.
I don't think I am, as they are cuddled up like a baby and still awake, and looking around - that's not a trance is it?
It's really good you're doing this, it's so hard to find the info you need on rabbit care. (Except when you're with RU of course! :lol: )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER8C-H7xOoc&feature=related
Sorry, I have never seen it before, and worry that when I turn my rabbits over to groom bellies, that I'm doing that.
I don't think I am, as they are cuddled up like a baby and still awake, and looking around - that's not a trance is it?
It's really good you're doing this, it's so hard to find the info you need on rabbit care. (Except when you're with RU of course! :lol: )
Mischief and Tinker's Mum
Wise Old Thumper
chloemurray
Warren Veteran
Bluesmum
Wise Old Thumper
chloemurray
Warren Veteran
Beowulf1976
Young Bun
Edited because I didn't know better.
I can't see how you can "see she is stressed" though. She looks asleep, like most rabbits do when "tranced".
Please explain.
I can't see how you can "see she is stressed" though. She looks asleep, like most rabbits do when "tranced".
Please explain.
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Chloe, as you know I think your videos are very good and the educational aspect is brilliant, and I was really happy to feature the collab in Hopping Mad, because I beleieve in what you're doing. But this film is a little misleading, and although you show evidence to support your message, which is a good message to put out there, you've not given a complete picture. Firstly, McBride is a she, not a he, and if you look at the bottom of the paper you've highlighted that Anne McBride wrote, you'll see this: "The conclusion was drawn that both the physiological and behavioral responses of rabbits to TI are indicative of a fear motivated stress state (Day, 2004). This confirms the previous assertion that the promotion of TI as a means to increase a bond between owners and their pets, because the rabbits enjoy it, is misplaced (McBride,). It may be appropriate for veterinary surgeons, and owners to continue to use this method for minor procedures, such as nail clipping as it holds less risk than anesthesia. However, the data suggests that rabbits should only be put into TI when necessary and owners and others educated appropriately."
The comment on your channel that "Rabbit "advocates" and "rabbit savvy" vets are actually frowned upon in the rabbit ownership community if they treat a rabbit this way." may well be true, but there is a reason why they use TI. Most of the things we do to rabbits are stressful. What owners and vets have to be mindful of is minimising the stress involved, and sometimes TI is the lower risk out of all the options.
Vets also scruff rabbits regularly, owners disapprove, but it's appropriate for doagnostic purposes, sometimes
At the RWAF conference a couple of weeks ago, Frances Harcourt-Brown showed a video of her using TI as a means to take an X-Ray. This is common practice for her, and it was amazing to watch. Given the possibilities for death, GI stasis and the stress involved in anaesthesia, TI is the lesser of two evils. After she showed the film, she said something along the lines of 'I suppose Anne McBride will disagree with this', to which Anne replied 'Not at all - it's entirely appropriate.'
If you have a rabbit that kicks, wriggles etc when you're trying to clip it's nails, (or need to check it for Flystrike) then yes, you could go to the vet, and if you feel you really can't clip nails, then this is the best option. But which is more stressful - a car/bus journey to the vet, with all the negative associations that the rabbit has with that, and an hour or so of the rabbit being very stressed, or 3 minutes of TI to get the job done safely and quickly? I can tell you that the answer is the latter, only because I made a video with Anne a couple of weeks ago, and we demonstrated how and when to use TI safely, and she talked about when TI is appropriate ( see this video from 11.20 onwards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJec3qQuvl4 - McBride is narrating it).
your educational films are really good, and please don't take this as a personal criticism, it's not meant like that at all, but your films need to be truthful if they are to be educational, otherwise all they are doing is perpetuating what has become a misinterpreted and misunderstood piece of research.
Sorry to be the devil's advocate, but I know you want to do the best you can, and to say that you should never ever perform TI is misleading.
The comment on your channel that "Rabbit "advocates" and "rabbit savvy" vets are actually frowned upon in the rabbit ownership community if they treat a rabbit this way." may well be true, but there is a reason why they use TI. Most of the things we do to rabbits are stressful. What owners and vets have to be mindful of is minimising the stress involved, and sometimes TI is the lower risk out of all the options.
Vets also scruff rabbits regularly, owners disapprove, but it's appropriate for doagnostic purposes, sometimes
At the RWAF conference a couple of weeks ago, Frances Harcourt-Brown showed a video of her using TI as a means to take an X-Ray. This is common practice for her, and it was amazing to watch. Given the possibilities for death, GI stasis and the stress involved in anaesthesia, TI is the lesser of two evils. After she showed the film, she said something along the lines of 'I suppose Anne McBride will disagree with this', to which Anne replied 'Not at all - it's entirely appropriate.'
If you have a rabbit that kicks, wriggles etc when you're trying to clip it's nails, (or need to check it for Flystrike) then yes, you could go to the vet, and if you feel you really can't clip nails, then this is the best option. But which is more stressful - a car/bus journey to the vet, with all the negative associations that the rabbit has with that, and an hour or so of the rabbit being very stressed, or 3 minutes of TI to get the job done safely and quickly? I can tell you that the answer is the latter, only because I made a video with Anne a couple of weeks ago, and we demonstrated how and when to use TI safely, and she talked about when TI is appropriate ( see this video from 11.20 onwards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJec3qQuvl4 - McBride is narrating it).
your educational films are really good, and please don't take this as a personal criticism, it's not meant like that at all, but your films need to be truthful if they are to be educational, otherwise all they are doing is perpetuating what has become a misinterpreted and misunderstood piece of research.
Sorry to be the devil's advocate, but I know you want to do the best you can, and to say that you should never ever perform TI is misleading.
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chloemurray
Warren Veteran
I made that video 5 months ago.... and in my opinion, my message was truthful. The point was to tell the young rabbit owners who watch my videos to not use TI, because they are not experts and may risk doing far more harm than good. I kept it simple so that anyone watching could understand.
Also, I say at the end of the video that if an owner can't find another way to keep their rabbit calm, they should go to their vet for things like nail clipping, but maybe that is the easiest option for me as none of my rabbits are afraid of travelling.
The whole point of the video was that YOUNG, inexperienced owners, would stop trancing their rabbits either on purpose or by accident, thinking it's "cute" or "funny".
ETA: I'm sorry but I won't watch the video as I find TI very distressing to see.
Also, I say at the end of the video that if an owner can't find another way to keep their rabbit calm, they should go to their vet for things like nail clipping, but maybe that is the easiest option for me as none of my rabbits are afraid of travelling.
The whole point of the video was that YOUNG, inexperienced owners, would stop trancing their rabbits either on purpose or by accident, thinking it's "cute" or "funny".
ETA: I'm sorry but I won't watch the video as I find TI very distressing to see.
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Then your intention was absolutely right, but the information didn't concur with that as you say to never ever do it, which is misleading. I understand if you don't want to watch the film, but if you're going to quote the author of the resarch as evidence, then you have the opportunity to hear it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Maybe the article that went with it is ok for you, Anne and I wrote it, and it covers TI at the bottom of the page http://www.hoppingmad.org/E3/handling.htm
Owners should go to the vet if they have a very stressy rabbit that won't let them clip nails, as obviously it could cause bledding etc, but if the owner can do it with TI, then it is preferable, as the stress of this is less than the stress of going t the vets. Sorry to sound bullish about it, but you're letting your personal opinion cloud your assesment of the facts.
chloemurray
Warren Veteran
I just don't agree with it and I stand by what I said in my video, I'm sorry.
