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Jack's-Jane
11-06-2011, 02:36 PM
Is it true that Outcrossing-ie mating a completely unrelated Buck and Doe is a 'complete non-starter as a form of systematic breeding- only to be used when all else has failed' ??

If so why ??

weeble
11-06-2011, 02:38 PM
Not sure I only really know about cattle breeding and with cattle you avoid in breeding where possible.

RubyTed
11-06-2011, 02:40 PM
My friend K, Teddy's (et al) breeder, will always get a completely unrelated stud buck in, as she doesn't interbreed!! :wave: She refuses to be a member of the BRC as she doesn't believe in showing.

I think the only reason that BRC breeders would be unwilling to mate two completely unrelated buns would be that the colours wouldn't be right! :roll:

ETA: All her does are related so she knows far more than 5 generations back, and she only gets the healthiest of bucks with at least 5 generations back, also. They all live wonderful lives in bunny mansions, and the does all happily run about together in the day with no fights. :)

Gemmapookie
11-06-2011, 02:40 PM
Not sure I only really know about cattle breeding and with cattle you avoid in breeding where possible.

I would think this is the same with rabbits :?

Jack's-Jane
11-06-2011, 02:44 PM
I am just reading about Outcrossing, Inbreeding and Line Breeding atm.

I am interested in it even if I have absolutely no intention of doing it.

RubyTed
11-06-2011, 02:45 PM
I would think this is the same with rabbits :?

AFAIK there are two types of "inbreeding". Line breeding, which is father with daughter and brother and sister. I think for all (read:most) breeders the latter is completely out of order and is only going to cause problems, but Line breeding is used by some breeders (probably all show breeders) as they are more likely to get the desirable traits from two "perfect" line related buns than two "perfect" non related buns, be it colour or personality. :? You're more able to "predict" what babies you'll get....and I think it's not thought of as being bad health wise, so long as you do it with the best buns you can.

(Sorry...probably don't make any sense!!)

....to add: I'm not saying I believe in any form of inbreeding....but asked K about it ages ago. :)

WalnutEarth626
11-06-2011, 04:41 PM
Outcrossing is typically avoided as it brings a total unknown element into your line - two lines can just not mix and thats actually where you are MORE likely to get things like bad teeth or undesirable traits as you never know the full background of your outcross and how it will gel with your own line.

Linebreeding allows you to breed consistently, predict the outcomes and once you know your line you can breed things like long coated genes or bad teeth etc out.

Line breeding requires more extensive knowledge of the history of your animals and any outcrosses must be carefully considering as a single mating can change years of work.

I bred German Lops for 13 years. In 2003 I bought in an outcross, and while he improved numerous traits in my line he also ruined my butterfly markings that I had spent 6 years setting in through line breeding because the owner he came from didn't focus on markings. From bringing him in it took me until 2010 to breed a well marked butterfly again - 7 years to repair the damage by bringing in an unknown entity.

I know markings as an example may not sit well with many of you but the same issue could occur with anything, bad hocks, long fur, bad teeth.....so in one way I was lucky with the issue I got and the benefits of bringing him in far outweighed it.

Jack's-Jane
11-06-2011, 05:01 PM
Outcrossing is typically avoided as it brings a total unknown element into your line - two lines can just not mix and thats actually where you are MORE likely to get things like bad teeth or undesirable traits as you never know the full background of your outcross and how it will gel with your own line.

Linebreeding allows you to breed consistently, predict the outcomes and once you know your line you can breed things like long coated genes or bad teeth etc out.

Line breeding requires more extensive knowledge of the history of your animals and any outcrosses must be carefully considering as a single mating can change years of work.

I bred German Lops for 13 years. In 2003 I bought in an outcross, and while he improved numerous traits in my line he also ruined my butterfly markings that I had spent 6 years setting in through line breeding because the owner he came from didn't focus on markings. From bringing him in it took me until 2010 to breed a well marked butterfly again - 7 years to repair the damage by bringing in an unknown entity.

I know markings as an example may not sit well with many of you but the same issue could occur with anything, bad hocks, long fur, bad teeth.....so in one way I was lucky with the issue I got and the benefits of bringing him in far outweighed it.

Thank you :)

So with line breeding do you, by 'you' I mean the Breeder, use just one 'Stud Buck' and mate him up with one of his Sister's to start with. Or to his mother ? Every line must start from an outcrossing surely :?

Rhian33
11-06-2011, 05:09 PM
Thank you :)

So with line breeding do you, by 'you' I mean the Breeder, use just one 'Stud Buck' and mate him up with one of his Sister's to start with. Or to his mother ? Every line must start from an outcrossing surely :?


Not sure how it works in the rabbit world but certainly in the rat world the benefit of line breeding is that you can be sure (or find out) if you have anything nasty in your line and stop breeding from them. The advantage of mating siblings is that any genetic defaults are highly likely to show up. Don't know how rabbit breeders do outcrossing (as I have no wish to ever have a breeder rabbit) but rat breeders will outcross with normally a buck from another breeder which is from a line with good health, temperament and normally the other breeder is trying to achieve the same end goal.

When the outcrossing has happened a new line is formed which again is mornitored very closely in case the mating wasn't a good one genetically. If it is proven not to be a good match the the line is shelved and not bred from again :wave:.

DemiS
11-06-2011, 07:00 PM
I think when breeders have their own line (that they trust and know well), they try to stick close to it and outcross as little as possible to avoid bringing in any strange problems or defects. Personally I think it's much better to breed lightly related rabbits that have a very good history and no health problems, than two random unrelated rabbits that could carry anything

weeble
11-06-2011, 10:53 PM
I think when breeders have their own line (that they trust and know well), they try to stick close to it and outcross as little as possible to avoid bringing in any strange problems or defects. Personally I think it's much better to breed lightly related rabbits that have a very good history and no health problems, than two random unrelated rabbits that could carry anything

I think I agree with this

emjrabbitwolf
11-06-2011, 11:13 PM
Hopefully I will not be killed for what I'm about to say.
I would like to eventually breed a new colouration of Tan rabbits; agouti and tans... From one random crossing between my black/tan buck and wild agouti doe I got 2 litters where all the offspring had deeper, richer more brown agouti coats that actually shone, with creamy under bellies with very large tan parts.
I wouldn't breed father/daughter, mother/son, brother/sister, but I would breed cousin to cousin.
I know some breeders of popular/numerous breeds will use a buck fromanother line to help enhance their own, especially if the breeders have known each other for many years on the show circuits and know the heritage of each rabbit.
Same for does, some move stud to add a new blood line into the stock which can be useful as it helps make sure there's no genetic deformaties.
If I ever were to start breeding and showing rabbits again I would have 2 agoutis; a buck and doe sibling pair and the same with a pair of tans, then cross them.
I'd love to show and breed rabbits again, but would only breed the does/bucks for maybe 2 years max (2 litters for the does, before neutering them an getting them a rescued companion to spend the rest of their life with in luxuary. I'd never keep more stock than I could look after either.

Think rabbits are a bit like mice/rats. Its alrigght naturally for closely related individuals to breed as this happens in the wild, but there, any unviable crossings are removed by predation/disease which doesnt happen in captivity, so any close related crosses must be monitored carefully....

emjrabbitwolf
11-06-2011, 11:13 PM
I think I agree with this

Seconded.

Jack's-Jane
12-06-2011, 07:16 AM
I dont (yet) know enough about Rabbit Genetics to comment re the Line Breeding. But surely continued breeding into one line from one line will eventually lead to problems :?

I get that Outcrossing to an 'unknown' could be catastrophic, but if the previous history of the Outcrosss is known for several previous generations would that not actually strengthen your line ?

I am reading about Genetics in John Hodgkiss's book about Rexes. I have been told that he knew his stuff re genetics ???????????????????????

RubyTed
12-06-2011, 07:24 AM
I dont (yet) know enough about Rabbit Genetics to comment re the Line Breeding. But surely continued breeding into one line from one line will eventually lead to problems :?

I get that Outcrossing to an 'unknown' could be catastrophic, but if the previous history of the Outcrosss is known for several previous generations would that not actually strengthen your line ?

I am reading about Genetics in John Hodgkiss's book about Rexes. I have been told that he knew his stuff re genetics ???????????????????????

:thumb: Exactly what I was thinking! :)

happybun
12-06-2011, 07:39 AM
google-d http://www.miniaturelops.com/genetics.htm but it doesn't really tell you what you want to know :oops:

emjrabbitwolf
12-06-2011, 11:34 AM
I dont (yet) know enough about Rabbit Genetics to comment re the Line Breeding. But surely continued breeding into one line from one line will eventually lead to problems :?

I get that Outcrossing to an 'unknown' could be catastrophic, but if the previous history of the Outcrosss is known for several previous generations would that not actually strengthen your line ?

I am reading about Genetics in John Hodgkiss's book about Rexes. I have been told that he knew his stuff re genetics ???????????????????????

You'd think that! I know with horses and dogs you don;t want to breed closely related animals or there is a much higher risk of problems (See some of the issues the KC now has to deal with!). So you look for stud or brood stock from a compatible line that has a good history, isn't related, and has the traits you wants, hopefully without any negative qualities if you've been able to check about 5 generations back. Though using a proven animal means you can se what thier offspring might look like.

WalnutEarth626
12-06-2011, 01:15 PM
Thank you :)

So with line breeding do you, by 'you' I mean the Breeder, use just one 'Stud Buck' and mate him up with one of his Sister's to start with. Or to his mother ? Every line must start from an outcrossing surely :?

No, I've never done a brother sister mating. Typically someone starting out will go to a breeder and buy a trio - 1 buck and 2 does. Typically these does could be from the same litter and the buck from a different one, or all 3 from different litters. However coming from the same breeder means they should all be the same line.

Then you mate up your buck to Doe A, keep a son and mate it to Doe B - from there keep a Doe C to mate back to your first buck.... and so on in that kind of pattern. Typically people also do Father to Daughter matings - but not often Mother to Son (old wives tale that it will bring out all the bad traits in your line).

As you can see it involves keeping very good track of your line. As I say I bred rabbits for 13 years and if you asked me the pedigree of one of my rabbits I could take it back all 13 years - without looking it up in my records.

WalnutEarth626
12-06-2011, 01:28 PM
I dont (yet) know enough about Rabbit Genetics to comment re the Line Breeding. But surely continued breeding into one line from one line will eventually lead to problems :?

I get that Outcrossing to an 'unknown' could be catastrophic, but if the previous history of the Outcrosss is known for several previous generations would that not actually strengthen your line ?

I am reading about Genetics in John Hodgkiss's book about Rexes. I have been told that he knew his stuff re genetics ???????????????????????

I've not read that book but yes John Hodgkiss knew about genetics.

The best way to bring in an outcross is either to go back to the original breeder (whos own line will have changed in that time) or to go to another breeder you have passed stock on to over the years. This way you bring in a 'related' outcross. Different enough to widen the gene pool, but related enough to not cause issues.

I did this repeatedly over the years, and also bought in that single completely unrelated outcross (rabbit was imported from Holland so no possible relation!)

Snowy
12-06-2011, 01:31 PM
Outcrossing is typically avoided as it brings a total unknown element into your line - two lines can just not mix and thats actually where you are MORE likely to get things like bad teeth or undesirable traits as you never know the full background of your outcross and how it will gel with your own line.

Linebreeding allows you to breed consistently, predict the outcomes and once you know your line you can breed things like long coated genes or bad teeth etc out.

Line breeding requires more extensive knowledge of the history of your animals and any outcrosses must be carefully considering as a single mating can change years of work.

I bred German Lops for 13 years. In 2003 I bought in an outcross, and while he improved numerous traits in my line he also ruined my butterfly markings that I had spent 6 years setting in through line breeding because the owner he came from didn't focus on markings. From bringing him in it took me until 2010 to breed a well marked butterfly again - 7 years to repair the damage by bringing in an unknown entity.

I know markings as an example may not sit well with many of you but the same issue could occur with anything, bad hocks, long fur, bad teeth.....so in one way I was lucky with the issue I got and the benefits of bringing him in far outweighed it.

I don't understand the bit I have highlighted because what you are saying is that you know and can trace back everyone of your rabbits, so is that unique to you then? surely the place where you would get an outcross from could do the same and there wouldn't be any imperfections? or am I being really dim:lol:

WalnutEarth626
12-06-2011, 10:22 PM
I don't understand the bit I have highlighted because what you are saying is that you know and can trace back everyone of your rabbits, so is that unique to you then? surely the place where you would get an outcross from could do the same and there wouldn't be any imperfections? or am I being really dim:lol:

Not everyone knows their line to that level, some people simply breed on too large a scale to have that level of knowledge on each rabbit (which is why I only bred on a smaller scale.) Also not all breeders are totally honest - Its like if someone comes to buy a used car, you aren't necessarily going to tell them you think the head gasket is on the way out.....

Thats why outcrossing can be risky and is avoided if possible. Outcrosses should only be purchased from other lines and breeders that you know well and trust.

I know some breeders that deliberately breed 2 seperate indivdual lines, so that if they need an outcross they can provide one 'in house' that they know the full history and background of.

threelittlepigs
12-06-2011, 11:51 PM
This is such an interesting thread! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Snowy
13-06-2011, 12:08 AM
Not everyone knows their line to that level, some people simply breed on too large a scale to have that level of knowledge on each rabbit (which is why I only bred on a smaller scale.) Also not all breeders are totally honest - Its like if someone comes to buy a used car, you aren't necessarily going to tell them you think the head gasket is on the way out.....

Thats why outcrossing can be risky and is avoided if possible. Outcrosses should only be purchased from other lines and breeders that you know well and trust.

I know some breeders that deliberately breed 2 seperate indivdual lines, so that if they need an outcross they can provide one 'in house' that they know the full history and background of.

Ah right so breeders are like second hand car salesmen....well dodgy:lol::lol::lol: thank you for explaining that though, although I don't know much about it I am sure in dog and cat breeding there are papers to verify a pedigree, is that not so with rabbits?

RubyTed
13-06-2011, 08:00 AM
Not everyone knows their line to that level, some people simply breed on too large a scale to have that level of knowledge on each rabbit (which is why I only bred on a smaller scale.) Also not all breeders are totally honest - Its like if someone comes to buy a used car, you aren't necessarily going to tell them you think the head gasket is on the way out.....

Thats why outcrossing can be risky and is avoided if possible. Outcrosses should only be purchased from other lines and breeders that you know well and trust.

I know some breeders that deliberately breed 2 seperate indivdual lines, so that if they need an outcross they can provide one 'in house' that they know the full history and background of.


But surely as soon as they outcross those lines they become related.....? :?

WalnutEarth626
14-06-2011, 10:13 PM
Ah right so breeders are like second hand car salesmen....well dodgy:lol::lol::lol: thank you for explaining that though, although I don't know much about it I am sure in dog and cat breeding there are papers to verify a pedigree, is that not so with rabbits?

People do provide pedigrees - but its not the same as the Kennel Club where every animal has to be registered and tested. There is no regulation as far as rabbits are concerned - so the pedigrees could be a complete work of fiction.

WalnutEarth626
14-06-2011, 10:14 PM
But surely as soon as they outcross those lines they become related.....? :?

Distantly, but if you only outcross in once every few years then they'll stay distant enough to serve the purpose :)