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Failing my bunnies- excess cecatrophs. UD post 19 :D

Sky-O

Wise Old Thumper
I can't beat them. I just can't. They are growing in numbers.

Sandy historically produces loads. She has a very sensitive tummy and also behaviourally will choose to do something else rather than eat them (when she lived inside, if I let her out at the time she should be eating them, she would leave them everywhere, but if she stayed in her cage at that time, she would eat them all).

I also posted a couple of months ago about The Swarming and how they didn't produce them when they had smaller accommodation and seemed happier, and they came back when they were in larger accommodation which, to me, relates it more to somebun being unhappy, than something dietary.

Someone from The Dopeys and Lightning is producing them too, but I have no idea who.

Star has just started producing them last week and he is like the cleanest, tidiest bunny in the world. EVER! His correlates with a move in accommodation, change in flooring, and change in routine, which makes sense because he is a total creature of habit.

All those groups of bunnies are just on hay and a small amount of herbs every day (I give them a tiny bit when they come over for food in the morning like normal). Brambles didn't work before, but I'm going to have another go with those.

Most of this seems to be down to the bunnies feeling low, which means I'm failing them, but I don't know what to do to make it better because. I just want my bunnies to be happy :(
 
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just googled cecatrophs didnt have a clue what there were lol Matilda and Gracie to loads of them reguluarly

is this a bad thing?
 
Aww don't blame yourself, it sounds like you've thought of every angle possible! Honey used to leave her caecotrophs too when she lived by herself, I didn't know why. You are a lot more experienced than me, but Honey seemed to stop leaving them when I stopped feeding Kale and broccoli... I don't think I've seen any since then, that was about 3 months ago. She is also happier (most of the time anyway :roll:) now she is back with Olly :) keep your chin up x
 
When I have had some rabbits in who have been boarding when their owners were on holiday I have noticed that some 'special' hays do lead some rabbits to leaving excess caecals. I think Bavarian Bunny had a similiar experience with one type of hay as well
 
Maybe you could give them some probiotics? Are the caecotrophs smelly and perhaps not very palatable for them to eat?

Helen x
 
just googled cecatrophs didnt have a clue what there were lol Matilda and Gracie to loads of them reguluarly

is this a bad thing?

Excess caecotrophs in many rabbits indicate a diet too high in protein and too low in fibre. Caecals can end up sticking to the fur of rabbits and will make them more prone to flystrike than those who do not have excess. A good start for investigating this is the easiest method by reducing the amount of dry food fed to a rabbit which should increase the amount of hay (fibre) which a bunny will eat.

Particuarly in elderly rabbits who may not be as flexible and due to pain may not be able to get down to eat them as they are produced, analgesia may help in these cases. Other conditions include gut and dental conditions.

If simply changing the diet of a rabbit does not work a vet check for gut, arthritic and dental problems will be indicated
 
Specifically for my bunnies, their diet is not high in protein. Their diet is predominantly baled hay with one or two SS a day and for a while I was trying different dried and fresh herbs and foods but at the moment it's incredibly plain. I too have found some hays seem to lend to producing more excess cecals (namely those with 'bits in' such as botanical hay) so I don't use them. They do get 'treat' hays but this doesn't tally with that at all. Thankfully, they all eat truckloads of the baled hay.

No, they aren't smelly or apparently dysbiosy (if that's a word :lol:) they look all pretty much the same as each others, like the pictures you see of how they are supposed to look.

Thankfully all are clean (which is why I'm not sure who are doing those in the groups).

I have been watching for any signs of anybunny needing a dental done, but I'm not seeing any indications for that. All bunnies are very bright and normal, to be honest. Arthritis is a possibility but there are no other indications of things being wrong, and with the exception of Star and possible one of the trios, all have had several vet checks since this became an issue.

I just feel like I can't beat this, and yet I REALLY want to.
 
i really feel for you! i only have one 'unusual' bunny and he's almost finished me off a few times!

the only time i've ever found un-disbosy ones are when something has spooked bun (happens more with eric than esme) so could this be the case?

probably clutching at straws but i learn a lot from watching eric:oops:
 
i really feel for you! i only have one 'unusual' bunny and he's almost finished me off a few times!

the only time i've ever found un-disbosy ones are when something has spooked bun (happens more with eric than esme) so could this be the case?

probably clutching at straws but i learn a lot from watching eric:oops:

Potentially, for Sandy yes. Roger loves a good old chase and I can see that if he chooses to when she is producing one, she would leave it. That would also fit in with her sometimes eating them, sometimes not.

For The Swarming, I don't think something outside is spooking them, but I would suspect inside the trio, chasey Dawn could be causing problems. They seem to be worse if I don't put hay on the floor in the hutch (oh why are my bunnies so pernikity), but I think this is more complex than just one issue.

I don't think anything is spooking whichever of the Dopeys/Lightning is doing it, and for Star, I suspect he feels unsafe, but I don't know how to make him feel safer or more secure. :?
 
I was having this problem with mine too. I have stopped their veg because they have unlimited grass during the day. I put the onto Allen and Page pellets because of their 23% fibre - they were on excel - after they improved when I gave them pro fibre and it helped which was great but expensive!

It is a lot better now but I am still finding a couple. I don't think it can be them being spooked because the tarp is right down over the hutches with all the rain and wind we have had.

I am starting to resign myself to the fact that this is just what they are like. Like you, I do not know who is doing it. They are a good weight, lively with shiny coats and bright eyes and no one has teeth problems. If you do manage to find a reason, please let me know!! I have reached the end of my limited knowledge.:lol:
 
I was actually going to ask your advise on this Sky-O as Dandy is producing some but does not seem to have any other health issues and nothing has changed in his set up.
Will keep reading the forum and watching his behaviour.
Good luck with yours
:wave:
 
I was actually going to ask your advise on this Sky-O as Dandy is producing some but does not seem to have any other health issues and nothing has changed in his set up.
Will keep reading the forum and watching his behaviour.
Good luck with yours
:wave:

Dandy historically has this issue, and it seems to be when he feels low. It could be he is moulting, which is going to be harder on him, it could be that maybe his teeth or something else is making him feel low, or that Belle is being a pain in the bum to him or something like that.
 
Dandy historically has this issue, and it seems to be when he feels low. It could be he is moulting, which is going to be harder on him, it could be that maybe his teeth or something else is making him feel low, or that Belle is being a pain in the bum to him or something like that.

Thanks for the insight. Good luck with all of yours.
 
The traditional caecal "cure all" when a hay only diet has been tried, is mature bramble or raspberry leaves - tougher the better. Wild buns will even climb for bramble leaves. I give them dry to my bun cos of his dental issues.
Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6zRr_EpyNE

I haven't understood it properly yet but:
a) Buns with a sluggish caecum often crave cardboard/paper =wood fiber if they have a sluggish caecum, even if they don't leave caecals.(Not a good idea cos they can get blocked with the sizing materials used in both)

b) I knew that wildies ate a lot of brambles, hawthorn saplings etc. = wood fiber.

c) My own bun (far from normal) craved fallen apple leaves in his run & this stopped both the cardboard craving & uneaten caecals. He'd eat them in preference to any other food.:shock:

d) Over the years I found a sort of scale of "gut toning up effect" of various leaves.
From lower end to top:-
Apple leaves - Hawthorn leaves - Bramble/raspberry leaves. (I've a few others up my sleeve but only for "medicinal use" - not free feeding because there are potential side issues if the bun doesn't know how much to eat!) Others use several other different types of tree leaves safe for buns. After a gradual introduction, the tree leaves can be fed freely with hay. If you're on the right track the buns will go crazy for them in a few days!
Most buns stabilise out on hawthorn.

The main causes of uneaten caecals are too rich a diet or too many commercial "treats" with honey & grain. (N/A to Sky-O) Action - hay only diet for 3 weeks.
Sudden change in diet.
Overgrowth of the wrong bacteria - is not always corrected by probiotics. Biolapis is the best for buns.
Any form of stress, including pain & "alteration of the balance of power in bunny relationships" (increases the normal output of cortisol which slows the gut down a lot, as well as reducing the immune response)
Medication (makes caecals smell different)

Eating caecals is a reflex action. Bunny will leave them if he's making too many (too rich a diet) or they don't smell right to him.

Sky-O, Poppymoon, & aliduncan1 please don't blame yourselves. I know both of you so well from RU for several years, your devotion & care are exemplary. You all know that I struggle with this one with Thumper & his naff caecum, but we've helped quite a few buns get back on track in the process. :) Good luck everybun.
 
So, where are we now. I currently have 14 bunnies on Pro Fibre pellets. :roll: Costing me an arm and a leg.

I feel like I'm winning the war with Sandy and whichever Dopey/Lightning it is. I've not seen any from Sandy today, and only one from The Dopeys/Lightning.

Star had a dental on Tuesday and is slowly (very slowly) recovering. I'm hoping that will sort his problems, although it's not, as of yet. He has so far produced one and a half today. :lol::roll:

The Swarming are a different matter. Their cecatrophs are mounting and large in quantity. :( That said, today Hope is feeling very sorry for himself, so he may be the culprit. Let's hope the vet can fix him- he is well overdue a dental so this may all tally.

I just want them to be ok.
 
Hope the buns get better soon Sky. I know moulting isn't helping!

Thumps - I'm so glad you've mentioned bramble/raspberry leaves, as Pie has a slightly deformed Cecum and she craves anything cardboard/paper :shock: I just though that was what she liked :oops:
Right well, off I go today to hunt down some Bramble leaves! :wave:
 
Seven buns on pro fibre! I refuse constant use of them for three! I give them if they are on antibiotics for the probiotic properties they have. That's shy I switched to higher fibre pellets to see if I could cut out the profibre as a regular food. I am sure that whatever has been causing them it is not you who will be responsible. Given your fantastic diet you give them they must have another reason for producing but not eating. We should have a whip round to help fund their pro fibre habit!:lol:
 
We're finally winning :D

This years hay made a world of difference :D

Just gotta make sure the next bales are as good!
 
i'll have to come and get some of that hay then!! every morning, one of my guest buns - or both - has left me a few squidgies that have been sat or lay on.

i've had to do more botty cleans in the last month or so than i've ever done before. still persevering with the pro-fibre pellets but i think one bun scoffs them all cos the other won't touch them:?
 
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