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clarebear
03-03-2011, 11:11 AM
Who uses it, and what for?

I put it in Bramble's hutch and litter tray.

chul
03-03-2011, 11:16 AM
I use it for my hammies only

clarebear
03-03-2011, 11:23 AM
What do you use for bunnies?

steph182
03-03-2011, 11:25 AM
I used to use it in Charlies litter tray but it got so messy, I find it tidier to use newspaper and hay now!
I do use it for my hamsters though

clarebear
03-03-2011, 11:26 AM
It's so messy, but good for soaking up wee!

chul
03-03-2011, 11:27 AM
What do you use for bunnies?

Mine are indoors, and I use wood based cat litter in their litter trays with hay on top. Sawdust isnt good for any small animal really, due to the dust in it.

Blackberry & Co
03-03-2011, 11:27 AM
I use aubiose for the litter trays (used to use megazorb) and lino on the hutch floors.

If you search through old posts you'll find a lot of info on why sawdust isn't recommended for buns/piggies :wave:

Grin
03-03-2011, 12:28 PM
I just use hay and newspapers. :wave:

Nicola1
03-03-2011, 12:31 PM
I hate sawdust/wood shavings. Megazorb is far better - it's much more absorbent, loads better for them and it's cheaper.

You can get it from Hay Experts or Animal Magic, or if you have an equestrian shop near you they might sell it as it's a horse bedding :wave:

Bavarian Bunny
03-03-2011, 12:37 PM
Sawdust is irritating to human and bunny eyes, so I don't use it. I use newspaper, hay and straw only.

LilVicky
03-03-2011, 12:39 PM
For the bunnies i use just newspaper and hay :D

I use sawdust/wood shavings for the hamster though :) And currently have a little bit in the budgie nest boxes too :)

Elena
03-03-2011, 04:51 PM
I used to use megazorb but tried just paper and hay as Naughty Nutmeg started digging in the hay and churning the megazorb through it and it's working so well I'm trying it with the lops now too as Mini the Minx has started digging too :roll:.

(Annoyingly I have a full bag of megazorb in the garage.)

Barn Yard Bunnies
03-03-2011, 04:55 PM
I stopped using sawdust over a month ago after reading about it on here.

I use hay in the hutch and carefresh in the litter tray. Been using carefresh for years. :wave:

Babsie
03-03-2011, 05:01 PM
I just use hay and newspapers. :wave:

Me, too :wave:

elis-mum
03-03-2011, 05:24 PM
in winter i put a layer of cardboard down in the shed with a layer of sawdust then about 2ft of hay and straw on top.. more for insulation and warmth than anything.

i use it in the stables otherwise my fat shetlands would hoover up a straw bed overnight!:roll:

BattleKat
03-03-2011, 05:29 PM
I used to use wood shavings in the litter trays (it's alright imo as long as it's in a well ventilated area and the buns aren't on it all the time) but switched to aubiose when I found somewhere I could get it as it's so much more absorbent and great for the mice too.

William
03-03-2011, 05:30 PM
Is shavings sawdust? Sawdust is bad if its what we call sawdust (you know, actually dust, like if you were sawing wood up).

I use aspen shavings for button quail, rabbit litterpans (sometimes), and hamsters.

Elena
03-03-2011, 05:36 PM
Is shavings sawdust? Sawdust is bad if its what we call sawdust (you know, actually dust, like if you were sawing wood up).

I use aspen shavings for button quail, rabbit litterpans (sometimes), and hamsters.

Some people use the words interchangeably. I know some shavings are also bad cos of the phenols. Don't know about aspen ones though.

Guy&Fawkes bunnies
03-03-2011, 05:39 PM
I use megazorb too, easy to clean out and does what it's name suggests!

Hugbut
03-03-2011, 05:41 PM
I use megazorb and/or shredded paper for buns & mouse as I read that sawdust can cause breathing problems once it's got pee on it :wave:

William
03-03-2011, 05:42 PM
Some people use the words interchangeably. I know some shavings are also bad cos of the phenols. Don't know about aspen ones though.

Oh, well that might be confusing for newbies... because sawdust is really bad for respiratory system, because of the dust. Which is why chinchilla dust is bad, but chinchilla sand is good.

Aspen is good. Pine and cedar are the bad ones.

clarebear
03-03-2011, 05:50 PM
Wish I had read this before going and buying another bag of sawdust! :(

Didn't realise it was so bad for bunnies, thought it was just a pain the way it gets everywhere!

William
03-03-2011, 05:52 PM
Wish I had read this before going and buying another bag of sawdust! :(

Didn't realise it was so bad for bunnies, thought it was just a pain the way it gets everywhere!

Is it sawdust or shavings? I'm guessing it doesn't matter either way because someone told me aspen shavings are actually hard to find and expensive in the UK. So yours are probably either pine or cedar (both sawdust and shavings are dangerous with them). But if you can get aspen shavings they're great.

jill
03-03-2011, 06:01 PM
i use wood shaveing i did use paper and hay but found that the paper got
messed to fast as my half blind bunny always wees every where but the
tray

nessar
03-03-2011, 06:14 PM
Wish I had read this before going and buying another bag of sawdust! :(

Didn't realise it was so bad for bunnies, thought it was just a pain the way it gets everywhere!

have you opened it? if not you can take it back.

Dont worry, its only bad long-term so it wont do any harm to use it for another week or so whilst you get something else sorted.

Surprised you're even using it for litter trays - it STINKS once its been peed on! Megazorb is sooo much better for smells and absorbancy.

SisterMoonbeam
03-03-2011, 08:21 PM
I used to use it... then Fidget developed a very severe liver infection and I very nearly lost her!!

Anyway... While i was trying to figure out what could possibly have caused the infection I came across the multitute of literature with reference to rats developing liver problems due to a toxic byproduct when their urine reacts to the chemicals used to treat woodshavings... whilst skimming this I found a couple of references to rabbits and the same issues arising. Even there is no solid evidence for this to apply to rabbits aswell, i believe this may have been what caused Fidget's liver infection. I instantly stopped using it and she recovered and it has never returned... in any of my buns!

Of course this is just my opinion as there is no conclusive research but it is enough to open my eyes anyway! :)

William
03-03-2011, 08:23 PM
I used to use it... then Fidget developed a very severe liver infection and I very nearly lost her!!

Anyway... While i was trying to figure out what could possibly have caused the infection I came across the multitute of literature with reference to rats developing liver problems due to a toxic byproduct when their urine reacts to the chemicals used to treat woodshavings... whilst skimming this I found a couple of references to rabbits and the same issues arising. Even there is no solid evidence for this to apply to rabbits aswell, i believe this may have been what caused Fidget's liver infection. I instantly stopped using it and she recovered and it has never returned... in any of my buns!

Of course this is just my opinion as there is no conclusive research but it is enough to open my eyes anyway! :)

There's certainly enough conclusive proof that the phenols in pine and cedar cause complications, especially with their respiratory system.

SisterMoonbeam
03-03-2011, 08:26 PM
There's certainly enough conclusive proof that the phenols in pine and cedar cause complications, especially with their respiratory system.

Yeah, I know the respiratory issues are well documented, I meant the liver problems.

I am convinced it contributed to Fidget's problems... If i had the means I would do the research myself :lol:

Elena
03-03-2011, 11:28 PM
Oh, well that might be confusing for newbies... because sawdust is really bad for respiratory system, because of the dust. Which is why chinchilla dust is bad, but chinchilla sand is good.

Aspen is good. Pine and cedar are the bad ones.

I don't think it's too much of an issue for newbs as they are both not good. Well not the shavings we get over here anyway!

William
03-03-2011, 11:33 PM
I don't think it's too much of an issue for newbs as they are both not good. Well not the shavings we get over here anyway!

There are some non-UKers on here though. If everyone says that they're unsafe they wouldn't ever learn that aspen shavings are fine.

happysaz133
03-03-2011, 11:33 PM
I use woodshavings for my hammies, but none of the others. Considering using it for the bunnies litter tray though.

I call it sawdust though, always have done :p

allie1904
03-03-2011, 11:35 PM
I've got my megazorb coming tomorrow :) Lots of hay always ends up in with whatever goes in the litter tray.

I can't use newspaper as they go digging and eat it.

Looking forward to buying a new litter tray at some point over the weekend to, They've taken to sleeping in there which I wasn't expecting so will be buying a nice big'un :)

BattleKat
03-03-2011, 11:43 PM
There are some non-UKers on here though. If everyone says that they're unsafe they wouldn't ever learn that aspen shavings are fine.

I think it would be better for people to think all shavings are bad than for there to be confusion over which kind are acceptable and which aren't leading to people thinking things are safe when they aren't :?

William
03-03-2011, 11:48 PM
I think it would be better for people to think all shavings are bad than for there to be confusion over which kind are acceptable and which aren't leading to people thinking things are safe when they aren't :?

On my hamster forum, or any small animal forum I'm on, all newbies that are using unsafe sawdust/shavings are informed that sawdust is bad, pine and cedar is bad, aspen shavings good. No confusion really. What I've found is confusing is people on here using shavings/sawdust when it isn't good, leading some to think it is acceptable. Unless they've found aspen shavings, but they never say whether its pine, cedar, or aspen, so.... :?

Barn Yard Bunnies
03-03-2011, 11:55 PM
I think it would be better for people to think all shavings are bad than for there to be confusion over which kind are acceptable and which aren't leading to people thinking things are safe when they aren't :?

Miss William is an expert on many issues. I think she should do a degree in animal care and welfare, perhaps become a vet.

happysaz133
03-03-2011, 11:57 PM
Miss William is an expert on many issues. I think she should do a degree in animal care and welfare, perhaps become a vet.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

BattleKat
03-03-2011, 11:59 PM
On my hamster forum, or any small animal forum I'm on, all newbies that are using unsafe sawdust/shavings are informed that sawdust is bad, pine and cedar is bad, aspen shavings good. No confusion really.
But for british people there would be, because I don't think I've ever seen wood-type specified on a bag of shavings.
In fact, back when I started keeping mice I was researching shavings and found that aspen were fine, so I tried finding out what type of wood different shavings were and couldn't find out.


What I've found is confusing is people on here using shavings/sawdust when it isn't good, leading some to think it is acceptable. Unless they've found aspen shavings, but they never say whether its pine, cedar, or aspen, so.... :?
Usually when it comes up people are told that wood shavings shouldn't be used unless just for small areas (ie, litter trays in a well ventilated shed), and even then there are better alternatives.

When the forum is UK based and mainly UK members I don't think there's any harm in talking as if we're all in the UK. Foreign members should just bear that in mind and double check anything they aren't sure on.
I'm a member of a US mouse forum where mouse keeping varies quite a lot from the UK and I wouldn't expect them to add in extra bits where relevant just for the non-US members.
For instance, in the US it's unacceptable for male mice to be housed together as they will fight, whereas European mice will often happily live in all-male groups. A warning is frequently given not to ever house male mice together and I realise it would confuse the vast majority of the forum to then say that european mice may well be fine. Not to mention many members wouldn't even be aware of that, just as many members of this forum won't be aware of aspen shavings.

William
03-03-2011, 11:59 PM
Miss William is an expert on many issues. I think she should do a degree in animal care and welfare, perhaps become a vet.

:roll: I haven't said anything to you or insulted you in any way so I don't know what your problem is. If you use them and feel offended, I'm sorry, I'm just stating facts. It's a fact that sawdust, pine shavings, and cedar shavings (or pine/cedar sawdust) is bad. If you do use them (I don't know) then you should stop. They are dangerous. That can't be denied.

And actually I am planning on a degree in that.

ETA: Seriously? Really, what is wrong with you people? Geez. You get upset over talking about shavings? You know, I never said anyone was irresponsible for using them, though they obviously shouldn't, so I don't know why you're getting defensive. :roll:

There clearly is confusion, because a UK member didn't know they were bad either.

happysaz133
04-03-2011, 12:02 AM
:roll: I haven't said anything to you or insulted you in any way so I don't know what your problem is. If you use them and feel offended, I'm sorry, I'm just stating facts. It's a fact that sawdust, pine shavings, and cedar shavings (or pine/cedar sawdust) is bad. If you do use them (I don't know) then you should stop. They are dangerous. That can't be denied.

And actually I am planning on a degree in that.

They are bad just because you say so? In 24 years of using shavings and sawdust, I have never once had any problems, and that's a lot of animals.

Generalising again. Remember, what affects some animals does not affect others.

William
04-03-2011, 12:04 AM
:roll: Ugh. No. We have that conversation with newbies on a hamster forum. It also is the same convo "but it doesn't bother my hamsters" :roll: It isn't a generalization. Its true.

Barn Yard Bunnies
04-03-2011, 12:06 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

;)

happysaz133
04-03-2011, 12:07 AM
;)

Had to! :lol:

William
04-03-2011, 12:08 AM
Immature :roll:

Just goggle it. Heres one of the first thing that comes up: http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/guineapigs/a/woodshavings.htm

I can't believe you guys didn't know this. Any of the knowledgeable people on here can tell you the same thing.

BattleKat
04-03-2011, 12:17 AM
Immature :roll:

Just goggle it. Heres one of the first thing that comes up: http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/guineapigs/a/woodshavings.htm

I can't believe you guys didn't know this. Any of the knowledgeable people on here can tell you the same thing.

bearing in mind, I actually agree with you that I would avoid shavings (the type we get in the UK!!!) you didn't choose a great link to support your point....


Cedar and pine became popular for pet bedding material because they are good at controlling odor and have some natural insecticidal properties (they kill or repel bugs, especially cedar). These softwood shavings smell nice due to the volatile compounds (e.g. aromatic hydrocarbons, phenols) that are given off. Unfortunately these compounds have been implicated as a potential health risk, especially with regards to respiratory problems (asthma, inflammation, allergic responses) and changes in the liver.

Many of the studies on wood toxicity have actually been conducted on humans, who are exposed to these woods and their by products in the wood product industry (such as those who work in lumber mills who are exposed to lots of wood dust), and these studies often compare the incidence of disease in workers in the wood product industry compared to other workers or the average population. Obviously, this is a much different type of exposure compared to our pets.

Studies of laboratory animals have shown fairly dramatic changes in liver enzymes on animals housed on cedar bedding. This in turn can effect the metabolism of drugs including anesthetics, but there is not much information on a direct link between these changes and disease or clinical symptoms. The changes in liver enzymes can be problematic for research animals, but the impact on pets hasn't really be studied, as far as I can tell.

Bottom Line
Based on the studies that implicate the compounds from cedar in allergic and respiratory diseases as well as the impact on liver enzymes, it seems it may well be prudent to avoid cedar shavings as bedding or litter, especially since alternatives are available.

With pine shavings, the problem isn't as clear cut. Pine shavings emit similar volatile compounds as cedar, but the risks aren't clear. It is thought that heat treating pine shavings may reduce the levels of aromatic hydrocarbons that have been implicated as a potential concern, so that products such as kiln dried pine are safe (many pet products are heat treated).

Since the information about the problems is circumstantial and hasn't been evaluated in the context of health problems in exotic pets, I'm hesitant to make firm recommendations. That said, it has been my personal choice to avoid cedar; I have used pine in the past, though recently I have been trying out many of the alternatives available on the market instead.

I think you might also find that when happysaz said you were generalising and what may affect one animal may not affect another she was actually referring to you talking about the effects on hamsters when the discussions on here are concerned with rabbits, to which you replied with another point about hamsters. I could be wrong though.

William
04-03-2011, 12:20 AM
bearing in mind, I actually agree with you that I would avoid shavings (the type we get in the UK!!!) you didn't choose a great link to support your point....


Cedar and pine became popular for pet bedding material because they are good at controlling odor and have some natural insecticidal properties (they kill or repel bugs, especially cedar). These softwood shavings smell nice due to the volatile compounds (e.g. aromatic hydrocarbons, phenols) that are given off. Unfortunately these compounds have been implicated as a potential health risk, especially with regards to respiratory problems (asthma, inflammation, allergic responses) and changes in the liver.

Many of the studies on wood toxicity have actually been conducted on humans, who are exposed to these woods and their by products in the wood product industry (such as those who work in lumber mills who are exposed to lots of wood dust), and these studies often compare the incidence of disease in workers in the wood product industry compared to other workers or the average population. Obviously, this is a much different type of exposure compared to our pets.

Studies of laboratory animals have shown fairly dramatic changes in liver enzymes on animals housed on cedar bedding. This in turn can effect the metabolism of drugs including anesthetics, but there is not much information on a direct link between these changes and disease or clinical symptoms. The changes in liver enzymes can be problematic for research animals, but the impact on pets hasn't really be studied, as far as I can tell.

Bottom Line
Based on the studies that implicate the compounds from cedar in allergic and respiratory diseases as well as the impact on liver enzymes, it seems it may well be prudent to avoid cedar shavings as bedding or litter, especially since alternatives are available.

With pine shavings, the problem isn't as clear cut. Pine shavings emit similar volatile compounds as cedar, but the risks aren't clear. It is thought that heat treating pine shavings may reduce the levels of aromatic hydrocarbons that have been implicated as a potential concern, so that products such as kiln dried pine are safe (many pet products are heat treated).

Since the information about the problems is circumstantial and hasn't been evaluated in the context of health problems in exotic pets, I'm hesitant to make firm recommendations. That said, it has been my personal choice to avoid cedar; I have used pine in the past, though recently I have been trying out many of the alternatives available on the market instead.

I barely glanced at it, I don't care enough to waste my time finding a good link for them when they will just ignore my advice. Apparently happy has some sort of vendetta against me because I live in the US :roll:

It is said that kiln dried might be safe. There are better alternatives though.

ETA: no, the generalization thing is apparently referring to how I once said that she and a few others were generalizing the US.

happysaz133
04-03-2011, 12:25 AM
I do know about certain types of shavings being dangerous, however most of the ones here are not. They are also dust extracted so minimise breathing problems in small animals.

There is nothing wrong with using these and I will continue to do so. I personally wouldn't bed hamsters on anything else.

happysaz133
04-03-2011, 12:26 AM
I barely glanced at it, I don't care enough to waste my time finding a good link for them when they will just ignore my advice. Apparently happy has some sort of vendetta against me because I live in the US :roll:

It is said that kiln dried might be safe. There are better alternatives though.

ETA: no, the generalization thing is apparently referring to how I once said that she and a few others were generalizing the US.

Seriously? :lol: I have nothing against the US and wish to live there. I have many many friends there.

Trust me, I have nothing against you for living in the US.

William
04-03-2011, 12:26 AM
You have magical pine trees and cedar trees in Scotland? Or are they made from something else? Any soft wood isn't good.

BattleKat
04-03-2011, 12:26 AM
I barely glanced at it, I don't care enough to waste my time finding a good link for them when they will just ignore my advice. Apparently happy has some sort of vendetta against me because I live in the US :roll:

It is said that kiln dried might be safe. There are better alternatives though.
You can't be bothered to find a good link but you care enough to waste time arguing about it in this thread...:? seems counter productive to me.

I'm not disagreeing there are better alternatives. I started that last post with saying I would avoid shavings.

William
04-03-2011, 12:29 AM
Then what are you always attacking me for Ever since the arguments about the US like 2 months ago? A couple days ago you brought up America in a thread that had nothing to do with it and I never mentioned America either. Now again. When I wasnt trying to offend anyone or anything.. And if I remember correctly you were against the US in those threads.


You can't be bothered to find a good link but you care enough to waste time arguing about it in this thread... seems counter productive to me.


No, because there just isn't any point. They won't listen and if they wanted to learn they could type "pine shavings" into goggle themselves.

Barn Yard Bunnies
04-03-2011, 12:31 AM
Seriously? :lol: I have nothing against the US and wish to live there. I have many many friends there.

Trust me, I have nothing against you for living in the US.

Cool great single malt names. :wave:

happysaz133
04-03-2011, 12:33 AM
You have magical pine trees and cedar trees in Scotland? Or are they made from something else? Any soft wood isn't good.

Did I say that anywhere? :roll: :roll: :roll: Although least you asked this time and didn't assume.

And at the end of the day, what I choose to bed my hamsters on is my business, they are not your animals nor are they in anyway unhealthy. There is not an awful lot of options for bedding my hamsters on, and shavings are easy and hygenic to me.

happysaz133
04-03-2011, 12:34 AM
Then what are you always attacking me for Ever since the arguments about the US like 2 months ago? A couple days ago you brought up America in a thread that had nothing to do with it and I never mentioned America either. Now again. When I wasnt trying to offend anyone or anything.. And if I remember correctly you were against the US in those threads.



No, because there just isn't any point. They won't listen and if they wanted to learn they could type "pine shavings" into goggle themselves.

I have already 'goggled' about shavings many times, and have come to the conclusion the risk is not high enough to me to change my hamsters bedding.

I absolutely love America...think what you wish :D

William
04-03-2011, 12:37 AM
Whatever. Your choice. There are many options though and just because it won't hurt your current hamsters (or doesn't seem to) doesn't mean it won't hurt any future hamsters. Before I knew (when I was 12) I housed mine on pine and I had a hamster and mouse get itchy and my mouse got bald patches.

happysaz133
04-03-2011, 12:44 AM
There are many options in the UK but not neccessarily where I live without a rediculous delivery charge.

As I said, I'm not willing to change it. As the old saying goes If it ain't broke dont fix it.

I'll be the bigger person and not comment on this thread again. I have better things to so with my time than argue about wood shavings. :lol: Call me abusive, neglectful and stupid if you so wish.

BattleKat
04-03-2011, 12:51 AM
Whatever. Your choice. There are many options though and just because it won't hurt your current hamsters (or doesn't seem to) doesn't mean it won't hurt any future hamsters. Before I knew (when I was 12) I housed mine on pine and I had a hamster and mouse get itchy and my mouse got bald patches.

I really really don't want to come across as if I'm arguing for the sake of it here :lol: but I just wanted to mention this in case you weren't aware and it might come in useful in the future
Mice in groups can sometimes be barbered by another mouse leaving hairless patches and scratch a lot due to the stress of being picked on, and lone mice can start to obsessively scratch and groom themselves leading to bald patches and sores (a very common problem in american mice, not so much in european mice). so that may not have been due to the shavings. :oops:

I really don't know enough about hamsters to comment. I've only had one - who was housed on wood shavings when I was a kid (and was healthy for her very long life span).

I'm sure happysaz would try a different substrate if she encountered problems in the future, so try not to worry about it.
Perhaps if you're concerned you could start a thread informing people of the potential dangers and alternatives to pine/cedar shavings?

William
04-03-2011, 12:55 AM
It wouldn't have to be expensive though. You can shred newspaper, toilet paper, and paper towels. You could use sand on the bottom (obviously with bedding too). You could do something like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/29840567@N03/5431232627/
Megazorb, carefresh, paper based cat litters are all fairly cheap. Probably barely more than shavings.

I use a mix of aspen, shredded newspaper, toilet paper, paper towel, sand, and sometimes carefresh. Nearly free.

Battlekat: No, he was a male, so I housed him separately. When I switched to carefresh he was fine.

What would be the point in starting a thread about it. People would just get all upset again like with this.

nessar
04-03-2011, 01:05 AM
I think it is the owners decision at the end of the day, to weigh up the pros and cons.

I personally think that, although the evidence is not conclusive, it is not worth the risk with my bunny's health, and so do not use them for his trays.

I do however use shavings for my hamster. I am still debating whether its worth changing or not, as I actually think megazorb is a bit dustier. There is no way I'd use newspaper or shredded paper, hamsters are so tiny if the ink was the wrong type it would affect her more than a rabbit. The reason I have not changed her over is because I believe the risk to her is smaller, as it is dust extracted and she doesnt wee on it (she has a litter box with special litter).

I think whether they are dangerous or not largely depends on how you use them.

William
04-03-2011, 01:13 AM
I think it is the owners decision at the end of the day, to weigh up the pros and cons.

I personally think that, although the evidence is not conclusive, it is not worth the risk with my bunny's health, and so do not use them for his trays.

I do however use shavings for my hamster. I am still debating whether its worth changing or not, as I actually think megazorb is a bit dustier. There is no way I'd use newspaper or shredded paper, hamsters are so tiny if the ink was the wrong type it would affect her more than a rabbit. The reason I have not changed her over is because I believe the risk to her is smaller, as it is dust extracted and she doesnt wee on it (she has a litter box with special litter).

I think whether they are dangerous or not largely depends on how you use them.

its worth the risk with your hamster's health, but not your rabbit's health?

newspaper ink in the US and UK is made of veggie oil. It's a law in case kids get it and stick it in their mouth or something.

Not to be argumentative, but wouldn't you think that it would be more dangerous for the hamster since the shavings will be contained in a cage for the hamster and the hamster walks and burrows all through it? Whereas it would just be in a litter pan for a rabbit.

There really is conclusive proof. Dangerous toxic phenols, what more do you need to know?

I think this is another one of those things where its different in the US. People get completely flamed for this kind of thing on US forums.

nessar
04-03-2011, 01:21 AM
its worth the risk with your hamster's health, but not your rabbit's health?

newspaper ink in the US and UK is made of veggie oil. It's a law in case kids get it and stick it in their mouth or something.

Not to be argumentative, but wouldn't you think that it would be more dangerous for the hamster since the shavings will be contained in a cage for the hamster and the hamster walks and burrows all through it? Whereas it would just be in a litter pan for a rabbit.

There really is conclusive proof. Dangerous toxic phenols, what more do you need to know?

I think this is another one of those things where its different in the US. People get completely flamed for this kind of thing on US forums.


Oh thats nice of you.

If the risks were the same I would not use it. She actually probably means a little more to me than my rabbit, as I have had her 3 times as long. The problems as I understand it are:
1) dust, but she has dust extracted shavings which are less dusty than megazorb
2) phenols released when weed on/wet, but she doesnt wee on them, and they dont get wet
Oh and I use a very thin layer, just enough to cover the bottom, so she doesnt burrow through it.

She is in a barred cage (good ventilation), yes but she has another 2 levels, tubes and a bed where she can get away from shavings if she wanted.

William
04-03-2011, 01:24 AM
Sorry... I thought that was what you were saying (that the bunny means more).

They aren't just dangerous when they are peed on. They're always dangerous to breathe in.

Hamsters like burrowing so another bedding would be best :) Everything I listed is safe (including newspaper)... its all free/cheap stuff.

nessar
04-03-2011, 01:38 AM
Sorry... I thought that was what you were saying (that the bunny means more).

They aren't just dangerous when they are peed on. They're always dangerous to breathe in.

Hamsters like burrowing so another bedding would be best :) Everything I listed is safe (including newspaper)... its all free/cheap stuff.

That's okay. Rest assured I would never endanger her life, I just havent found anything safe and practical yet.

I actually wasnt aware that they were present all the time, I thought they were released when they got wet. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Carefresh, megazorb and chinchilla sand are more dusty than the shavings I use. I just dont trust newspaper, I read in my rabbit book that most are soy-based in the UK but not all. Plus it would take ages to rip up. I would love something like finacard but havent seen anywhere selling it, and I cant store aubiose. I cant use tissue paper as she takes it all into her nest or stores it. I wont use plain normal paper, I think its too sharp. See my difficulty? :(

eta - oh and I wont expose her to soil or sand, shes too sheltered from dirt etc and she might get sand in her pouches

William
04-03-2011, 01:45 AM
That's okay. Rest assured I would never endanger her life, I just havent found anything safe and practical yet.

I actually wasnt aware that they were present all the time, I thought they were released when they got wet. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Carefresh, megazorb and chinchilla sand are more dusty than the shavings I use. I just dont trust newspaper, I read in my rabbit book that most are soy-based in the UK but not all. Plus it would take ages to chop up. I would love something like finacard but havent seen anywhere selling it, and I cant store aubiose. I cant use tissue paper as she takes it all into her nest or stores it. I wont use plain normal paper, I think its too sharp. See my difficulty?

Yeah. :lol: Kinda funny, we don't have good hamster cages, and you don't have good hamster beddings.

They actually need sand for sand bathing. Some say theres risks to play sand and chinchilla sand (debates on hamster hideout) but there are other types of sand that you can use. You can make sand less dusty by rinsing it over and over, thats what you do with play sand when using it for fish.

Our carefresh isn't dusty and i'm not sure if we even have megazorb. It's probably under a different name here.

Here doctors recommend women to lay their baby on a piece of newspaper if they don't have anything else if they're in a unclean area (I suppose they mean public bathrooms). so I imagine they'd never use toxic ink, they would be sued if something happened to someone. I've been using newspaper for years anyway, never had a prob. I shred it using a paper shredder. And I put enough toilet paper/paper towels so that they can stuff some in their nests and leave the rest.

Tamsin
04-03-2011, 06:23 AM
Just a reminder: please make sure you think about your tone when posting. Making people aware of information is fine but be careful you don't cross the line into trying to bully them into agreeing with your point of view.

clarebear
04-03-2011, 12:06 PM
have you opened it? if not you can take it back.

Dont worry, its only bad long-term so it wont do any harm to use it for another week or so whilst you get something else sorted.

Surprised you're even using it for litter trays - it STINKS once its been peed on! Megazorb is sooo much better for smells and absorbancy.

I think I must have just got used to the smell!! I will look into some Megazorb for next time!

Do you use straw in your hutch at all, or just hay?

bunlover
04-03-2011, 12:09 PM
i use dust free wood shavings under a layer of newspaper and then a thick layer of hay in litter trays as i find otherwise the trays need cleaning two or three times a day to keep dry. i also use it for hamsters. i would dnever use sawdust though or dusty wood chips, i also wouldnt use it on its own or with bunnys who dig up their litter trays due to the way it can irritate their eyes xx

clarebear
04-03-2011, 12:18 PM
Just rang my local pet shop where I brought the sawdust yesterday, I am hoping they will change it for me. They do a litter called Back To Nature. Does anyone use this?

nessar
04-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Just rang my local pet shop where I brought the sawdust yesterday, I am hoping they will change it for me. They do a litter called Back To Nature. Does anyone use this?

I think I've seen that on Hay Experts.... it is a wood-based cat litter yes? Just make sure it is and yes that will be fine. From what I remember its quite expensive for what you get though.

If you want cheaper wood litter, go to supermarkets or P@H and get the cat wood litter. As long as it is wood-based and non-clumping and doesnt have added chemicals, its fine.

To answer your other question, my buns indoors so I dont use straw.

clarebear
04-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Thank you x

nessar
04-03-2011, 01:30 PM
Thank you x

no problem :)

William
04-03-2011, 08:45 PM
I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone but I don't get why there's a good amount of people here still using these. They aren't good at all, for any living creature that has eyes, nose, liver, and respiratory system. It isn't even the dust that is the main problem, it's the toxic phenols... I guess until you have a problem with them you won't understand, but it's not like you'll get a warning before your pet's liver is damaged, or their respiratory system is irreparably damaged, so why take the chance? :? Honestly not trying to be mean here, but I don't think people understand the dangers.

bunlover
04-03-2011, 09:10 PM
I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone but I don't get why there's a good amount of people here still using these. They aren't good at all, for any living creature that has eyes, nose, liver, and respiratory system. It isn't even the dust that is the main problem, it's the toxic phenols... I guess until you have a problem with them you won't understand, but it's not like you'll get a warning before your pet's liver is damaged, or their respiratory system is irreparably damaged, so why take the chance? :? Honestly not trying to be mean here, but I don't think people understand the dangers.

i apprichate the facts you are trying to put accross it is bad because of toxins as well as dust, are these toxins released into the air or are they only if the animal comes into contact with them directly, i do openly admit to using dust extracted wood chips under thick layers of newspaper and then a layer of hay as i find carefresh very expensive to buy and they will not go if i use yesterdays news, i dont know where to get megazorb from and washing towels is a pain if used in litter trays, this is not having a go im trying to learn what the major risks are with the use of wood shavings being used in a controlled area beneath layers of other bedding?

bunlover
04-03-2011, 09:11 PM
also surely a wood baased cat litter has the same wood based toxins as wood chips? im unsure how this differs other than in dust content?

William
04-03-2011, 09:18 PM
i apprichate the facts you are trying to put accross it is bad because of toxins as well as dust, are these toxins released into the air or are they only if the animal comes into contact with them directly, i do openly admit to using dust extracted wood chips under thick layers of newspaper and then a layer of straw as i find carefresh very expensive to buy and they will not go if i use yesterdays news, i dont know where to get megazorb from and washing towels is a pain if used in litter trays, this is not having a go im trying to learn what the major risks are with the use of wood shavings being used in a controlled area beneath layers of other bedding?

I imagine it's better to cover it.. but it seems like that would be like covering mold with newspaper... You're still breathing it in, just not as much?

The main thing is breathing it in because it can damage organs. Direct contact also can irritate the skin, eyes, and nose.

Maybe straw or hay under the newspaper would work for you? My buns like going on just plain newspaper but they like to poop in hay so I have one place with just newspaper (for pee) and another place with hay on top of newspaper for pooping.

William
04-03-2011, 09:20 PM
also surely a wood baased cat litter has the same wood based toxins as wood chips? im unsure how this differs other than in dust content?

I'm unsure about this, but I don't think its safe either. I've only heard paper based cat litter to be safe. It could be that its not dangerous in that way, like kiln dried pine shavings (though I still would never use these)...I dunno, but I doubt it.

bunlover
04-03-2011, 09:23 PM
I imagine it's better to cover it.. but it seems like that would be like covering mold with newspaper... You're still breathing it in, just not as much?

The main thing is breathing it in because it can damage organs. Direct contact also can irritate the skin, eyes, and nose.

Maybe straw or hay under the newspaper would work for you? My buns like going on just plain newspaper but they like to poop in hay so I have one place with just newspaper (for pee) and another place with hay on top of newspaper for pooping.

the problem is for me dora wees excessivly due to her previous ec which likely cause kidney damage, this means that newspaper and hay in any amount is not enough even with wood chips beneath i change it often twice a day , carefresh i had to change three times a day when i treid that before, she has been treated and is better and wees much less than used to but still much more than other bunnies i own, im not sure how else to absorb it (nb she is only locked in the hutch overnight the rest of day can choose where to go, her urine scald has all cleared up from her incontinance now and im loathed to change her to newspaper and hay only in case i make it worse? where could i get megazorb and is this better than carefresh in absorbancy and cost (a 20 bag lasted me less than a week previously with the carefresh!!!!)

BattleKat
04-03-2011, 09:26 PM
the problem is for me dora wees excessivly due to her previous ec which likely cause kidney damage, this means that newspaper and hay in any amount is not enough even with wood chips beneath i change it often twice a day , carefresh i had to change three times a day when i treid that before, she has been treated and is better and wees much less than used to but still much more than other bunnies i own, im not sure how else to absorb it (nb she is only locked in the hutch overnight the rest of day can choose where to go, her urine scald has all cleared up from her incontinance now and im loathed to change her to newspaper and hay only in case i make it worse? where could i get megazorb and is this better than carefresh in absorbancy and cost (a 20 bag lasted me less than a week previously with the carefresh!!!!)
can you store aubiose? You get a huge sack for around 10, it's similar in appearance to very fine wood shavings (pic below) but it's hemp, and around 4x more absorbent than wood shavings. I find it makes a massive difference to the smell of my mice compared to other litters. :)

http://users.telenet.be/RAT_z/ratten/images/aubiose.jpg

William
04-03-2011, 09:30 PM
So thats what aubiose is! I always assumed it was a paper based bedding. Well if you guys have that why not use that instead? I was under the impression that the only shavings you had were pine and cedar. For hamsters I mean, or for people who use pine/cedar in litterpans for buns.

I wonder if we have hemp based bedding :? I use aspen for only $2 for a good sized bag which I'm happy with but I'd still like to try hemp based if we have any.

bunlover- I've never used megazorb so I don't know how well it absorbs but a lot of people here seem to love it.

BattleKat
04-03-2011, 09:51 PM
So thats what aubiose is! I always assumed it was a paper based bedding. Well if you guys have that why not use that instead? I was under the impression that the only shavings you had were pine and cedar. For hamsters I mean, or for people who use pine/cedar in litterpans for buns.


It's awkward for a lot of people as it can be hard to locate, impossible to get delivered and you have to store a massive sack of the stuff.

Hemp isn't shavings, the two look similar but are quite different. Hard to explain really!

if you do find hemp bedding double check which brand it is, a lot of them have citronella which obviously isn't great for little critters. Rape is similar too so that might be worth looking out for :)

clarebear
10-03-2011, 11:41 AM
I managed to swap my bag of shavings/sawdust for a bag of Back to Nature. It was very expensive and I am nearly through a whole bag in just a week! Might have to re-think this again!

nessar
10-03-2011, 11:46 AM
I managed to swap my bag of shavings/sawdust for a bag of Back to Nature. It was very expensive and I am nearly through a whole bag in just a week! Might have to re-think this again!

Switch to megazorb, sooo much cheaper. As a guide a bag lasts about 2 months to do 2 litter trays for 1 rabbit. There are a few sites to get it from, I use The Hay Experts.

Or find some cheaper wood pellet cat litter, its usually cheaper if you buy the big bags.

clarebear
10-03-2011, 11:49 AM
Yes I think I am going to try Megazorb next.....just shopping around. Thanks x :wave: