Minstrel's Treatment Diary - UPDATE gone to the bridge :'(

Hi!

I've posted previously about Minstrel's ongoing incontinence problem, which got so bad in the autumn that I brought her and her brother inside. I lined their hutch with puppy pads and cleaned up the floor regularly. Not ideal, but she was happier than when she was outside.

Antibiotics and diet changes have had no effect so my vet and I have decided to try her on a drug called Propanol. It's registered for use in dogs, but it has apparently been used in rabbits with some success (my vet even spoke with the manufacturers who confirmed this) . She started treatment today and so I've decided to keep a diary of her progress in the hope it will prove useful for future reference.

Her current dosage is one drop (not even 0.5ml!) three times a day. This she took happily on half a fenugreek crunchy.

If you'd like to read more about Minstrel's symptoms it's in this thread here http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=247796

I know that this may sound like a silly question but do your bunnies ever get access to Chocolate? It can play havhoc with there Kidneys i have know other who have done this and didnt realise the impact it would have.

No, no chocolate - only in name

I've read ur other post to see the symptoms and they sound exactly the same as one of my buns shes a Lion head and was great when it came to going to toilet in her tray she was fab then all of a sudden after Christmas I started to notice she was peeing anywhere which was strange she also started to sit in her toilet which I then started cleaning her cage out twice a day she wasn't herself and knew something was wrong although not showing ill signs. With her being a lion head I also suffered the same problems as u matting of the fur and scalding around her legs I took her to the vets as I also noticed a strange smell from her wee. My vet said she thought due to the toilet problem this could be a sign on E- Cuniculi which until that day I'd never heard of she said she wanted to treat her for that firstly to count it out and we came home with her meds which is called Lapizole which is given orally 1 ml per kg once daily for 28 days we are now two days from the end of her treatment and shes back to her normal self weeing and pooing only in her tray fur at the back is lovely and unmatted and no scolding.

I'm not saying this is what the matter is with your bun but the problems ur having sound exactly the same as what Fluff had.

I hope this helps and your bun is better soon x

Do you know what drug it contains? Its just that I would like to know how this differs from Propalin :wave:

abbymarysmokey said:

Do you know what drug it contains? Its just that I would like to know how this differs from Propalin :wave:

Click to expand...

sorry, I meant Propalin

Helf for ant, how did your vet diagnose E.C.? I'm sure I discussed this with our vet, but it was ruled out due to Minstrel's only symptom being incontinence, and then nothing showing up in her samples. Plus, it's been ongoing for such a long time. I'm sure E.C. usually sends buns downhill quite quickly if it's not caught, but I might be thinking of VHD.... I've trawled the threads on here looking for possible explanations with no success.

mrs munkee said:

sorry, I meant Propalin

Helf for ant, how did your vet diagnose E.C.? I'm sure I discussed this with our vet, but it was ruled out due to Minstrel's only symptom being incontinence, and then nothing showing up in her samples. Plus, it's been ongoing for such a long time. I'm sure E.C. usually sends buns downhill quite quickly if it's not caught, but I might be thinking of VHD.... I've trawled the threads on here looking for possible explanations with no success.

Click to expand...

I took on a rescue bun called branston he started fitting it was then a few days after that Fluff started acting strange I think due to both of them being ill and both signs of it that she wanted to rule that out first however no test was done but on the other hand both are now showing good signs and back to normal.

It was a long shot really but couldn't get over how alike the two cases were but if you've had test done then I would go with that

Sorry I couldn't help more xxx

Thanks for replying Helf for Ant. It's good to hear a broad range of experiences. Our vet is almost as baffled as I am :?. Cadbury is absolutely fine and has never shown any problems. It's only Minstrel. It's why we think it's neurolgical.

She's had one full day of meds. Hoping she'll show signs of improvement soon.

How long a course of Baytril? One of my french lops had incontinence and urine scald and, each time we got to the end of a course, it returned. She went on a month's course and it went and never returned.

An EC test was negative.

Could your bunny be incontinent because of pain because of arthritis etc.

I think it was a week of baytril, but it had absolutely no effect.

She has been on Propalin for a week now, but as yet no positive effect. I have noticed her poops have been very small and dark in the past day or so. She is still eating and drinking fine, so will keep an eye on it for now.

Well it will be two weeks tomorrow since Minstrel started her treatment and there is no sign of improvement yet Her poops haven't improved a great deal, although not as small as they were. She's still eating and drinking fine though. My hubby found another thread on here, where someone said Propalin only started to have an effect after about 15 days, so we will continue to persevere.

She's out on the lawn enjoying the spring sunshine at the moment

just a point to make dora had incontinance and it was ec, she did also suffer fits towards the time we managed diagnosis and did also struggle as her back end was lower but didnt drag her feet and it was off and on and her left leg to begin with then other times her right leg, it was several months before diagnosis i wish she had had pannacur for 28 days as a precaution when her symptoms first showed but vets were adament it was nothing to do with ec. due to no other symptoms and no head tilt,

in saying that i tended to bathe her once a day i would sit her in a bath of warm water and she would sit there while i washed her then would rise out bath refill etc etc until water clean her fur fell out as well and she ended up with urine scald DESPITE me cleaning out her accomodation 3-4times a day and using towels and highly absorbant bedding in there, she is still not always using her litter tray but is definatly no longer incontinant and is fluffy white with new fur underneath we used calendula cream after bathing and drying her to soothe the sore skin. it seemed to dramatically help. x

If I were you I think I would give her Panacur for 28 days just to make sure, my Indy showed the same symptoms (and no other symptoms at all!) and it was EC. Also, from your other thread and this one I couldn't tell if you did have x-rays taken after all? I'd certainly do so if I were you. And run some bloodwork..

My bunny Fred is showing the same symptoms now, his urine was tested and his blood, and we took an x-ray. Now he has been on panacur for 2,5 weeks and he only got worse, so my vet is looking into incontinence and meds that can be used for that.

How's Minstrel now? If it works, maybe we can try this for Fred too..

Thanks for all the input :wave:

Today is the 18th day on Propalin and if I'm honest there has hardly been an improvement. On Thursday I thought we were starting to crack it when there were only a couple of wees on the floor all day, but then I realised both Cadbury and Minstrel had taken to sitting in the litter tray rather than their usual spot on a fleecy cat bed :?

Tuesday evening I actually had to bathe her backend as she had a lot of squidgy poop stuck in her fur. This may be due to the spring grass they've been enjoying for the past few days, although in general her poops are still small and dark. (Grass has never caused any issues before). Wonder if I should add a probiotic to their water?

No x-rays were ever taken. The vets really didn't think they would find anything, again due to her complete lack of any other symptoms. She appears to position herself quite normally when she wees - kind of squats forward and lifts her tail. She wee's when she gets excited - treat time, pellet ball time, she wees when she's scared - brushing time, picking up time. Then she's obviously just weeing wherever she happens to be as well since their fleecey bed has to be washed every few days. *sigh*

Have to take our new boy Thornton for the snip on Monday, so will hopefully speak to the vets then.

Went to the vets today with Thornton, but his pre-op check was only with the nurse so wasn't able to ask about Minstrel and the Propalin.

Have just had to wash her bum again this evening. It was really pooey Did a bum check before I put her on the lawn this morning and it wasn't too bad, just a bit wee stained. In general her poops are much more normal sized again although still on the dark side.

Still eating fine although perhaps drinking a fair bit. Could be the weather though with it being a bit milder.

Just to update you, two weeks ago we stopped using the Propalin. It had been four weeks with no sign of improvement and as I've mentioned was being dentrimental in other ways.

I've just got off the phone to the vet and to be honest she was pretty unhelpful. I tried bringing up the subject of EC, but she thought I was talking about some other incontinence drug :roll: I couldn't remember how to spell or pronounce the 'cuniculi' bit. At any rate I said I'd email her about it so any heads up or thoughts would be useful. I'm even tempted to take her to another vet, but the one I'm with is supposed to be bunny savvy

The reason I'm going back down this route is that I swear that sometimes Minstrel's back legs aren't 'right'. Particularly when I pick her up they just seem kind of limp. Cadbury and Thornton's natural instinct is to curl their back legs up under them whereas Minstrel's just hang down. She's also lost all the fur down the inside of one leg. Have been using sudocrem and bathing her and keeping her coat as short as possible. Generally she's moving around ok, she just seems a bit 'unsteady' at times when she's shuffling position.

I'd upload pics, but I'm so ashamed of her condition. I look like such a bad bunny mummy, but I feel so useless and helpless.

Another update.

The vet has agreed to try her on a course of panacur. Don't know whether it will help, but I'm willing to try anything now.

Minstrel went to the bridge yesterday morning.

Flystrike on top of everything else. We felt it was kinder not to let her suffer anymore.

We are absolutely heartbroken

mrs munkee said:

Minstrel went to the bridge yesterday morning.

Flystrike on top of everything else. We felt it was kinder not to let her suffer anymore.

We are absolutely heartbroken

Click to expand...

Oh I am so sorry, what an ordeal you have all been through

Sweet dreams Minstrel xxxxxxxxxxxxx

I'm so sorry for your loss. I have had bunnies for over 20yrs now any i'm
stall amazed as to how much we don't know about them, It is frastrating
when you have a poorly bunny and no one can advise you. My Dougal died of unknown causes just before Christmas, He just stopped eating and was in drips and being sringe fed, The poor vet (who is a friend) was baffled and called other vets for advice. My Ruby has gone blind and vets are baffled as to what has caused. There still seems to be a little of the old 'Rabbits are disposable pets' atitude in the drug and vet world.
We need more research doing to help these amazing creatures (rant over)