Please help if you've tried given your stasis prone buns tree leaves

Reason - If it's helped even a little it's simple & cheap to help a serious condition in buns.

If we can get good info for about say 50 buns it's worth going to vets for some proper research, to get it recommended across the board, & help lots of buns. I also want to know if we can predict which buns will be helped & which won't be helped.

We need to know the diagnosis.
Why you feel they've helped/not helped eg frequency of stasis before trying leaves & after.
Which leaves do you use?
How long you've used them for?
Age of bun at 1st. stasis episode?
Do they repond best to metaclopramide or zantac when in stasis?
Bloat or non bloat buns?
Any problems eg blockages & whether they've blocked before?.
Was your bun a big paper/cardboard EATER (not just shredding) & was it affected when they started leaves?

I want as much info as I can get. Please help. As you know my own bun has a rare condition & isn't representative, but historic use of leaves for "tummy troubles" was widespread, and has been deemed safe by a top modern vet before I recommended them.

Why you feel they've helped/not helped eg frequency of stasis before trying leaves & after.
i think the wilder diet instead of human veg has stabalised Alvins very delicate tummy, also fruit has been removed from his diet


Which leaves do you use?
brambles, hawthorn & dandelion

How long you've used them for?
almost a year now

Age of bun at 1st. stasis episode?
less than a year old

Do they repond best to metaclopramide or zantac when in stasis?
not sure, it seems to me that metacam and fluids have the biggest effect and the gut stimulant may not be required unless its a total gut stop for more than 12 hours.. ofcourse im not a vet so i can only base my views on Alvin's tummy.

Bloat or non bloat buns?
non bloat

Any problems eg blockages & whether they've blocked before?.
never blocked just a complete stop of the gut. once the special poops were not eaten a few days before and there has been gas but the vets have always said no bloat.

Was your bun a big paper/cardboard EATER (not just shredding) & was it affected when they started leaves?
Alvin always eats cardboard and wallpaper when he has access to it, ive stopped him having it so dont know if the leaves have helped

Alvin is not currently on leaves due to them being dead and me not drying any he does get given the branches to hawthorn trees which he chooses to eat over human veg.

4 months since the last slow down and almost a year since the last full blown stopping of the gut.

Thanks donnamt. Alvin's one of the great characters on RU. Although I kinda miss him in 1 way, you've no idea how relieved I am for both of you that life is going smoothly now.

Come on folks I know that there are more of you out there. I know it's long, but it's for the bunnies present & future. No more summers like 3-4 years ago when they were dying in stasis one after the other. I've done my wack of months researching it.

ETA Excessive cardboard/paper eating is thought to signify a slow gut, & the bunny craves wood pulp. Leaves are a safe alternative!

Why you feel they've helped/not helped eg frequency of stasis before trying leaves & after.
Changing to a wild diet and primarily hay only diet literally took my buns from chronic caecal dysbiosis - a huge risk factor for GI stasis/bloat - to two very healthy rabbits with fantastic gut motility and very stable caecal flora which are therefore far more reslient to temporary upset.


Which leaves do you use?
Fresh and Dried - apple leaves first and foremeost - due to access (have an apple tree, the fact the rabbits LOVE it, and that it always gets them eating and clears up any mild upset.
Pear, willow, hazel, dandelion, plantain - mostly ribwort, strawberry leaves, jerusalem artichoke leaves, yarrow more recently, nettle and depending on access my buns have responded very well to nipplewort and chickweed and groundsel. Also lavender and rosemary for calming a stressed rabbit.
When Poppy was impacted the ONLY thing she would eat for two whole days was fresh apple and artichoke leaves and I mean this was ALL she would eat.

For some very peculiar reason - neither of my two will touch sloe, hawthorn, blackberry/raspberry leaves even when ill or upset tums, I have tried many times, they get nibbled but often left.

How long you've used them for?
We have had this wild diet now for several years

Age of bun at 1st. stasis episode?
As soon as we got Nino from rescue at around 6 months of age

Do they repond best to metaclopramide or zantac when in stasis?
Metclopramide without a doubt - this is the drug that pulls Nino out of stasis/boat. I give zantac as well but it's not as effective and he can often have metclopramide on its own.
Poppy responds best to a combination of both and zantac primarily.

Bloat or non bloat buns?
Nino is a bloating bunny.
Poppy is not susceptible but when she has had problems she has been a non-bloating rabbit.

Any problems eg blockages & whether they've blocked before?.
Nino has NEVER touch wood had a blockage - he just swells up like a balloon in his stomach, not his bowels. However, due to the acute nature of his bloat and rapid swelling and floppiness of posture in a short time frame he presents as an obstructed bun quite often - Xray confirms he is not.
Poppy tends to be more at risk of impaction.

Was your bun a big paper/cardboard EATER (not just shredding) & was it affected when they started leaves?
Not applicable to my two as always had access to very high quality coarse hay diet, but am aware of this with other rabbits.

It has been a month or two since Nino's last slow down, and over a year since his last acute episode. It is important that I stress that this was not solved by diet alone - Nino had a very serious chronic underlying condition causing him severe daily pain which for several years was undiagnosed - his bloat/stasis management has been controlled almost entirely by adequate pain management and maintaining mobility - an essential factor for gut motility. However, without a shadow of a doubt a wild diet makes a HUGE impact on maintaining his VERY sensitive gut motility. Without the constant intake of high fibre wild food and hay he would be far more susceptible to slow down when his pain is not controlled or resurfaces between dosages.

Poppy has not had an episode for well over a year or two - diet for her is also crucial.

Thank you so much for all the information PL. That is incredibly helpful.

I am in complete agreement that diet alone will not help when there is an underlying illness. Nor is it meant to be a substitute for any of the veterinary treatment of stasis, or a standard healthy diet.

I also agree with you about dysbiosis & even wonder whether some degree is more commonly present than we realise, especially following an episode of stasis.

It's only after all the investigations are negative, & we've addressed the dietary issues, I'm asking whether a closer approximation to the low nutrient high fiber diet of wild buns improves gut function sufficiently to weather the minor dips which would have previously resulted in stasis.
It's a question of whether the old country ways are truth or myth. My personal experience is not enough.

thumps_ said:

Thanks donnamt. Alvin's one of the great characters on RU. Although I kinda miss him in 1 way, you've no idea how relieved I am for both of you that life is going smoothly now.

Come on folks I know that there are more of you out there. I know it's long, but it's for the bunnies present & future. No more summers like 3-4 years ago when they were dying in stasis one after the other. I've done my wack of months researching it.

ETA Excessive cardboard/paper eating is thought to signify a slow gut, & the bunny craves wood pulp. Leaves are a safe alternative!

Click to expand...

Scince Sebastians recovery from stasis he has taken to eating the willow chew sticks in the run and has always done anything to get his paws on newspaper or cardboard :?

But I do intend to swap them both over to a more natural diet. The first thing Sebastian was excited about eating after his stasis was dried dandilion and plantian :wave:

Daisy Sunshine has a diagnosis of megacolon.

Why you feel they've helped/not helped eg frequency of stasis before trying leaves & after.
Daisy has had a number of episodes where leaves have helped, including periods of uneaten caecals, dysbiosis, stasis and attacks of gas/bloat. I'm sure leaves have helped Daisy during her accute episodes and also in the weeks of recovery afterwards. I altered her diet to exclude almost all vegetables and replaced them with wild plants, after FHB confirmed Daisy's inability to cope with roots and fruits in her diet last year when megacolon was first diagnosed.

Which leaves do you use?
Primarily dried bramble and wild raspberry leaves to help with her episodes. Also fresh and dried plantain and dandelion, fresh strawberry leaves as well as packets of herbal mixes e.g. Burns Meadow Mix (Dandelion, Chicory, Plantain, Mint, Milfoil, Chamomile, Marigold, Nettle, Birch Tree Leaf, Willow Bark).

How long you've used them for?
Over a year

Age of bun at 1st. stasis episode?
This is difficult to say exactly due to initial vet being non rabbit savvy (not to mention my lack of knowledge) but I think she had her first episode as a young rabbit of approx 3 months.

Do they repond best to metaclopramide or zantac when in stasis?
Metaclop is usually the first drug administered, so I'd say it's probably the most helpful. Zantac has also been used to some effect, as has Domperidone.

Bloat or non bloat buns?
Daisy suffers from a build up of gas as her primary symptom.

Any problems eg blockages & whether they've blocked before?
During her last megacolon episode Daisy had a blockage - it wasn't a complete one but xrays showed a mass in her stomach which took a few days to move through.

Was your bun a big paper/cardboard EATER (not just shredding) & was it affected when they started leaves?
Daisy ate huge amounts of cardboard when she started developing dysbiosis and megacolon problems. I don't often allow access to cardboard these days in fear of blockage. I clearly remember that early last year during a big cardboard eating/shredding phase she did reduce the amount she consumed when I introduced raspberry and bramble leaves into her diet.

I hope that helps Judy :wave:

:wave: Hi georgypuddling. Thank you for your reply.
I hope you don't mind if I make some suggestions about Sebastian.

Yep I recognise the cardboard/paper craving. Thumper would even raid the pedal bin for it. He'd no interest in grapes but dragged out the stalk I threw away if he got a chance too. :shock: Cardboard, paper, bark, leaves are all basically wood pulp, but the cardboard & paper have "sizing (binding) compounds". Even after chewing it stays in a wet gooy mass which can form a block in the gut. Bark & leaves give the bun the wood pulp they crave, without the risks of blockage!

Willow is interesting. The bark contains small amounts of salycilates depending on the type of willow. They are bunny safe & a mild herbal painkiller NSAID type. I wonder whether Sebastian chooses Willow over other types of bark. I just wonder, whether given choice, he'll select the painkiller. [I've a very few apple twigs on my tree. I can send you some together with some hazel (also bunny safe) if you want to try. Let me know]

The 1st step which really helps alot is the same as the treatment for mucky bum. PL is taking Fluffiebunny through it on http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=255659. Twinkle has an incredibly sensitive tummy, so it's taken more time than usual.:wave:

thankyou so much Thumps if you have enough twigs to spare I would be very grateful for some.
Im not sure what the willow is, they're store brought. It's interesting that willow contains pain killing properties scince nibbling that he has completely stopped tummy pressing :shock:
they had apple twigs during the summer and they dissappeared sharpish

thankyou for the link :wave:

I have 2 buns, Lucy & Billie, who developed stasis after being neutered ... they wouldn't eat for 2 days and had to go backwards a forwards to the vet to be syringe fed etc. Anyway, then one day decided that Apple twigs/leaves from our tree in the garden might be worth a go ....... and they tucked in straight away .... it really was amazing. So, that's what I've tried ever since and it's definitely something that various buns have gone for first if off their food.

Hope this helps :wave:

:wave: Hi Giantbunnymummy. Thank you so much for your reply. How's Daisy doing? I think of you so often, nice to meet up with you.
Yes you've been a great help.

Yes, I put in the blockage question because of Daisy.
I guess she's mainly got upper GI tract nerve issues responding primarily to metaclop, whereas Thumper has caecal / lower GI tract issues responding primarily to Zantac in the past.

Don't know whether it helps but I've really got to watch Thumper's fluid intake now he's on a totally dry diet. Water fills him up, & it's a job to get enough food through put these days. Can't wait for Spring & some fresh juicy plants!

I don't know much about this topic, but can tell you that Twinkle has had caecal dysbiosis all her life, and this may be what caused her stasis in May last year (as it certainly wasnt the tooth roots my crappy original vets diagnosed her with :roll: )

She really struggled to recover with stasis and to this day I remember the day she started to come round from it was the day I first gave her bramble leaves..

She has never got bloat or ever tried to eat cardboard, but is a great hay eater. Now she is on hay only she is much healthier than ever... I will eventually try her with dried dandelion and other dried forage. She did like the Sloe leaves you sent her when she was recovering from dysbiosis.

I probably have answered inappropriately and this is probably totally irrelevant so just ignore me if that is the case :lol:

Answers:

We need to know the diagnosis.
stasis

Why you feel they've helped/not helped eg frequency of stasis before trying leaves & after.
First time ever of getting stasis

Which leaves do you use?
Brambles

How long you've used them for?
Few weeks when recovering from stasis

Age of bun at 1st. stasis episode?
3

Do they repond best to metaclopramide or zantac when in stasis?
Was treated with both at the same time


Bloat or non bloat buns?
Non bloat

Any problems eg blockages & whether they've blocked before?.
No blockages

Was your bun a big paper/cardboard EATER (not just shredding) & was it affected when they started leaves?
Never been interested in cardboard/paper/

:wave: A big thank you Fluffiebunny. Yes that's really helpful.
I'm so grateful to everyone who has kindly given me so much information.
We really need numbers now, to try to get some patterns together.

I woildn't reallysay my bunnies are stasis prone, other than Tippex after her myxo jabs, but for what it's worth:


We need to know the diagnosis.
In Tippy's case it is usually ileus

Why you feel they've helped/not helped eg frequency of stasis before trying leaves & after.

Which leaves do you use?
I started offering fruit leaves after noticing TPC would selectively eat these when in stasis. She would help herself to red and blackcurrant leaves and raspberry leaves. Apple leaves would usually be eaten too- this plus coarse grass or hay and dandelion leaves is always what she wants when her guts aren't working well


How long you've used them for?
I now offer them as often as possible, allyear round, either fresh or dried

Age of bun at 1st. stasis episode?
About 3.


Do they repond best to metaclopramide or zantac when in stasis?
Difficult to say as I give both now, but zantac gave the most rapid results

Bloat or non bloat buns?
Non Bloat.

Any problems eg blockages & whether they've blocked before?.
No history of health problems other than e.c.

Was your bun a big paper/cardboard EATER (not just shredding) & was it affected when they started leaves?
Big shredder of fabrics and vinyl flooring but I don't think she ate it. Not so much a cardbord or paper chewer

Good luck with your research :wave:

Thank you Lilbun that's great.
Oooo I'm in no position to do any meaningful research which would end up in a paper for the veterinary world. :lol: I'm doing what I've always done at work. I notice something, get some examples together, to see if it's worth taking further. Then I find someone who can design & implement a proper full study & then hand over.

All my 4 ideas were accepted. All were incredibly simple, low tech., not the slightest discomfort to the patient, (not even a blood test!) 3 had impact on saving lives, & the 4th stopped pain, & futher corneal damage while patients were waiting months for an eye operation.

NONE involved the use of any animal they were all human studies.

ETA
It's interesting that cardboard/paper eating would be or is, a problem for all except 3 buns. The scale of it is totally unexpected to me. I was wondering whether it could be a useful early predictor of buns who might develop stasis problems. That would be a different study in which we'd have to find out how common it is amongst buns who DON'T go on to get stasis problems.

EETA I guess it is a useful guide for RU members too. At present the numbers are far too low to draw any conclusions.

None of my buns are regular statis buns. Darcy had his first statis last November 2010. Previously Darcy suffered statis due to underlying undiagnosed EC which lead to headtilt in 2009. Beatrix suffered gas in October 2010. I am counting Darcy's statis last November as his first - not sure if this i the right thing to do - but only because it wasn't linked to another illness.

Why you feel they've helped/not helped eg frequency of stasis before trying leaves & after.


Although my buns do not regularly have this problem (thank heavens and keeping paws crossed) I do believe using the leaves since Darcy and Beatrix problems it has greatly improved their digestion. There have been no more gas or statis - they all love the leaves as part of their daily diet in moderation. I know this sounds nuts but I really do believe and feel that they are healthier for it. They let me know in their own way about this.

I have been giving them a natural diet before this of fresh veg twice a day and lots of hay. I have started feeding them a treat hay of green oat hay everyday with their normal meadow hay which keeps them from getting bored and eating more hay. I stopped feeding pellets years ago on the advice of my vet as they were all getting what they needed from fresh veg.


Which leaves do you use?

I have been feeding a bowl of readigrass to share between two, plus leaves of plaintain, coneflower, sometimes dandelion (found out it was diuretic so don't want to give all the time).

How long you've used them for?

Since November 2010.

Age of bun at 1st. stasis episode?

6 years old.


Do they repond best to metaclopramide or zantac when in stasis?



Only treated with metaclopramde which did the trick.


Bloat or non bloat buns?

Non-bloat


Any problems eg blockages & whether they've blocked before?.

No blockages.


Was your bun a big paper/cardboard EATER (not just shredding) & was it affected when they started leaves?

They all love shreding (no eating) but Beatrix does have a bad habbit of eating my letters, envelopes etc. This worries me now.


Hope this helps.

Just in case the previous episode in 2009 does count - Darcy suffered 2 episodes of statis due to EC and the met was used and did the trick.

thumps_ said:

:wave: Hi Giantbunnymummy. Thank you so much for your reply. How's Daisy doing? I think of you so often, nice to meet up with you.

Don't know whether it helps but I've really got to watch Thumper's fluid intake now he's on a totally dry diet. Water fills him up, & it's a job to get enough food through put these days. Can't wait for Spring & some fresh juicy plants!

Click to expand...

Hi :wave: Daisy is doing really well at the moment thank you *touches all the wood in sight* How's Thumper at the moment? Hope he's doing ok.

Luckily Daisy is back on spring greens these days so fluid intake isn't a problem at the moment, but like you I'm looking forward to things being in leaf again. x

:wave: Hi binkybun :wave:
Thank you for all the info
The occasional small amount of paper cardboard is no worry. I reckon that most buns do a nibble from time to time. No big shakes. We do what we can so they can't get to it, but they outwit us on odd occasions.:lol:

Thumper used to be one of those buns who have us tearing our hair out when he was a baby probably (about 14-16 weeks). I can't explain why but I was totally convinced that he wasn't being naughty from the beginning. I kept reminding myself, "Thumper isn't being naughty he's trying to show me something".

Obviously I dropped my voice in disapproval to stop him doing it & he would, when I was in the room. Obviously I did my best to ensure he couldn't get at any. But when I left the room for the loo, or to get a cuppa, he'd even get on the table to eat paper, or turn over a huge wastepaper basket, even a pedal bin didn't stop him!!:shock:

Fortunately the apple tree leaves started to fall within about 3 weeks. He showed me exactly what he wanted - apple leaves. Virtually all wood pulp eating gradually stopped over the next month. He doesn't do it at all now, despite a very slow gut.

It's this really abnormal "craving", severe enough to pose us with considerable problems protecting the buns, & perhaps having to exclude them from certain areas to protect them, which gives potential problems.

I am afraid I have too many to really put details for each- BUT we have always found that the FIRST (and often only) thing they will eat after /during stassis episodes is willow leaves and willow stalks.

Followed by apple leaves and stalks, and geranium (preferably the small leaved native rather than cultivated varieties) (NOTE NOT pelargonium), and then the usual of brambles, plantains etc etc etc