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E.C.

*lily*

Wise Old Thumper
Just a bit of a question, really, sorry if I'm asking something that is really straightforward and I'm sounding a bit daft :oops:

When a rabbit gets sudden head tilt and ear infection is ruled out, is it always E.C or are there other causes for head tilt besides those 2 diagnosis?

What checks can actually be run to diagnose E.C? If there are other reasons for headtilt, would the immediate assumption that it's E.C and the subsequent treatment with Lapizole/Panacur cause further damage to a headtilt rabbit if incorrectly diagnosed with E.C?

Sorry again if this is a silly question :oops:
 
Just a bit of a question, really, sorry if I'm asking something that is really straightforward and I'm sounding a bit daft :oops:

When a rabbit gets sudden head tilt and ear infection is ruled out, is it always E.C or are there other causes for head tilt besides those 2 diagnosis?

What checks can actually be run to diagnose E.C? If there are other reasons for headtilt, would the immediate assumption that it's E.C and the subsequent treatment with Lapizole/Panacur cause further damage to a headtilt rabbit if incorrectly diagnosed with E.C?

Sorry again if this is a silly question :oops:

Sorry it's just links, have to rush

http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/S/00dis/Parasitic/Encephalitozoonosis.htm

http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/S/00dis/Bacterial/BacterialOtitisMediaInterna.html

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/tilt.html
 
As for checks, I believe a blood test can be run but as the majority of rabbits are exposed to EC at some point it doesn't tell you much. It's a bit like the Epstein Barr virus in humans. Most of us have been exposed but it only causes issues in a few.
 
So, treating it as definate E.C and medicating with Lapizole would not do any harm if it was caused by something else?
 
EC is such a contentious issue because knowledge varies widely and what people think they know they may not actually know. Its not understood well at all.

The only conclusive way to find out if a rabbit has had EC is to do a PM when they die because the brain will show leisons and I believe the kidneys will have a 'certain look' too (but what that is, I'm unsure).

There are debates on fenbendazole though. There were very minimal studies on it (literally two rabbits), and its long term use or even use generally, are relatively unknown. There is some speculation that it can cause bone marrow issues. A guy i know studying it in the US says it is not effective for active EC because it does not penetrate the blood-brain barrier (so it may only be of some use if the rabbit does not have active EC- although the study with two rabbits showed it only to be of use if it was given over a time where the rabbits were exposed to EC, not when they were carriers), and he uses something different now- a different horse wormer, and he has shown positive effects with that in the present, but again, I would expect that side effects are unknown.
 
Very interesting, thank you.

It seems that the majority of headtilt episodes are put down as E.C and treated with drugs that have not had much research put into their effectiveness when used on rabbits? If the rabbit had actually got active E.C, and the headtilt improves, could that just "happen" or would the Lapizole have actually cured it?

If Lapizole is used on a headtilt rabbit that hadn't got active E.C, could it have a negative effect?
 
Very interesting, thank you.

It seems that the majority of headtilt episodes are put down as E.C and treated with drugs that have not had much research put into their effectiveness when used on rabbits? If the rabbit had actually got active E.C, and the headtilt improves, could that just "happen" or would the Lapizole have actually cured it?

If Lapizole is used on a headtilt rabbit that hadn't got active E.C, could it have a negative effect?

You're asking good questions, but questions very likely to have a variety of answers.

The guy I mentioned previously says that EC does nto cause head tilt, but does cause a low immune system, making the rabbit more prone to infections. Other people disagree with that. I've had two head tilt bunnies. I treated neither with fenbendazole, both with Convenia (an antibiotic) and both recovered from their tilt and showed improvement with 2 days of starting the antibiotic (literally).

One died shortly after because her kidneys were failing anyway (and yes, potentially, she may have genuinely had active EC, although that may not be the case- it was not mentioned at the vets), the other was on antibios for 3 months and after being tilted for a long time prior to coming to me, she became nearly straight and was everything a normal rabbit was. She died a year after stopping treatment due to suspected secondary uterine cancer.

I personally would always use antibios as the first line of attack. Unless/until someone can give me a proven treatment for EC then I'm always going to be wary of Panacur because so much is not understood about EC and I don't want to unnecessarily treat my rabbits when the vets are not sure if they should be treated (at the RWA conference the issue was raised that most rabbits carry EC with no problem, the same way most rabbits carry pastuerella with no problem, and pastuerella is not treated for as a precaution, and should EC).
 
Panacur is supposed to treat the parasite but a non-steroidal anti infammatory (such as metacam) is needed to treat the inflammation causing the head tilt/symptoms! In severe cases of head tilt a rabbit savvy vet can administer steroid to treat the symptom (in this case metacam should not be used at the same time!). As steroids are contra-indicated in rabbits it should be a rabbit savvy vet who uses them!

A friends bunny had severe head tilt and against her vets advice (she only wanted to use panacur!) both metacam and panacur were given for approx 7 weeks and the little bunny has made a great recovery :D!!

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=253270
 
the other was on antibios for 3 months and after being tilted for a long time prior to coming to me, she became nearly straight and was everything a normal rabbit was.

This is really interesting!! Was it a severe tilt and do you have any idea how long she'd had the tilt prior to coming to you? From what Ive read into EC the general thought was that you need to treat the bunny as early as possible with anti-inflammatories as the nerve damage would be done and the tilt irreversible, so this is potentially fantastic news :D!!
 
Dunno if this helps but Mischa had Panacur, Baytril and several injections of something which I think was steroid but might've been painkiller. The actual head tilt started improving when we got onto the second tube of Panacur, so about 20 days after we started Panacur. He carried on eating, though not as much as prior, throughout.

We assumed it was head tilt as vet said there wasn't any signs of ear infection but we treated for infection anyway in case.
 
This is really interesting!! Was it a severe tilt and do you have any idea how long she'd had the tilt prior to coming to you? From what Ive read into EC the general thought was that you need to treat the bunny as early as possible with anti-inflammatories as the nerve damage would be done and the tilt irreversible, so this is potentially fantastic news :D!!

It was 3-4 o'clock tilt. she was seized by an RSPCA Inspector after her owner refused to get her treatment, so she must have had it a while. She was then at the RSPCA and had two months of Panacur to no effect at all. She came to me on the Thursday, the next Tuesday I took her to the vets and she started Convenia, two days after that she was already more upright. she was amazing :D I miss her a lot. She had to relearn a lot of skills, it was like seeing a baby rabbit learn skills, but she got them all back and was left with a residual tilt of less than 1 o'clock.

Steroids are not suggested for head tilt because generally it is infection and steroids lower the immune system, plus the rabbit generally needs anti inflammatories, such as Metacam, which can not be given alongside steroids.
 
It was 3-4 o'clock tilt. she was seized by an RSPCA Inspector after her owner refused to get her treatment, so she must have had it a while. She was then at the RSPCA and had two months of Panacur to no effect at all. She came to me on the Thursday, the next Tuesday I took her to the vets and she started Convenia, two days after that she was already more upright. she was amazing :D I miss her a lot. She had to relearn a lot of skills, it was like seeing a baby rabbit learn skills, but she got them all back and was left with a residual tilt of less than 1 o'clock.

Steroids are not suggested for head tilt because generally it is infection and steroids lower the immune system, plus the rabbit generally needs anti inflammatories, such as Metacam, which can not be given alongside steroids.

Yeah my vet back then wasn't rabbit savvy. Neither was I, it was the first time he'd been to a vet :oops: It may well have been metacam injections he had rather than a steroid but the word steroid sticks in my memory.
 
Dunno if this helps but Mischa had Panacur, Baytril and several injections of something which I think was steroid but might've been painkiller. The actual head tilt started improving when we got onto the second tube of Panacur, so about 20 days after we started Panacur. He carried on eating, though not as much as prior, throughout.

We assumed it was head tilt as vet said there wasn't any signs of ear infection but we treated for infection anyway in case.

Was the down ear cultured? Often there is no visible puss or signs of infection, but when cultured the bacteria are there, which can apparently be enough.
 
Was the down ear cultured? Often there is no visible puss or signs of infection, but when cultured the bacteria are there, which can apparently be enough.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't. This was the first time he or I had ever been to a vets and I was in a bit of a state. :oops: He got over it though so I just added my experience for if it helps with the mystery at all.
 
I'm pretty sure it wasn't. This was the first time he or I had ever been to a vets and I was in a bit of a state. :oops: He got over it though so I just added my experience for if it helps with the mystery at all.

Sorry, I just saw your other post- we must have crossed each other with that post.

Whatever happened though, the fact he got over it is the important thing :)
 
You're asking good questions, but questions very likely to have a variety of answers.

The guy I mentioned previously says that EC does nto cause head tilt, but does cause a low immune system, making the rabbit more prone to infections. Other people disagree with that. I've had two head tilt bunnies. I treated neither with fenbendazole, both with Convenia (an antibiotic) and both recovered from their tilt and showed improvement with 2 days of starting the antibiotic (literally).

One died shortly after because her kidneys were failing anyway (and yes, potentially, she may have genuinely had active EC, although that may not be the case- it was not mentioned at the vets), the other was on antibios for 3 months and after being tilted for a long time prior to coming to me, she became nearly straight and was everything a normal rabbit was. She died a year after stopping treatment due to suspected secondary uterine cancer.

I personally would always use antibios as the first line of attack. Unless/until someone can give me a proven treatment for EC then I'm always going to be wary of Panacur because so much is not understood about EC and I don't want to unnecessarily treat my rabbits when the vets are not sure if they should be treated (at the RWA conference the issue was raised that most rabbits carry EC with no problem, the same way most rabbits carry pastuerella with no problem, and pastuerella is not treated for as a precaution, and should EC).

Thank you, this is so interesting.

My Tinkerbell developed a very sudden headtilt, on 21st May 2009. She was prescribed Lapizole but died on 23rd May.

I have often wondered if she actually had E.C or, if she didn't, whether the Lapizole actually did her more harm than good :?
 
Thank you, this is so interesting.

My Tinkerbell developed a very sudden headtilt, on 21st May 2009. She was prescribed Lapizole but died on 23rd May.

I have often wondered if she actually had E.C or, if she didn't, whether the Lapizole actually did her more harm than good :?

I'm sorry to hear about Tinkerbell. I hate how our brain does the 'what happened', 'what if', 'what did' stuff. Sadly, you'll likely never know what happened to her and why, but my feeling would be, in that short space of time, the fenbendazole (Lapizole) would not have caused her harm, just maybe didn't help.
 
Thank you.

So, if I had another rabbit present with headtilt and the vet said E.C, then I should administer the Lapizole and it would do no harm if it wasn't E.C?

Sorry for so many silly questions :oops:
 
Thank you.

So, if I had another rabbit present with headtilt and the vet said E.C, then I should administer the Lapizole and it would do no harm if it wasn't E.C?

Sorry for so many silly questions :oops:

As to that, I don't know. I've never heard of, or come across, a rabbit who has had a severe acute reaction to fenbendazole (either panacur or lapizole), hence why I said previously about Tinkerbell (although I'm sure there must be some exceptional cases).

I personally wouldn't want to commit to saying that it would do no harm, given what I have read about some people's suspicions about it damaging bone marrow.
 
Just to add, ear infections can sometimes be very hard to diagnose in the early stages. My bun got head tilt but at first there was no sign of infection upon examination of the ear and swabbing. 5 days later and another swab revealed the infection. Therefore I personally would always want abx to be given at the first sign of head tilt :wave:
(sorry dont know if thats useful/relevant!)
 
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