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Mucky Bum - chronic caecal dysbiosis - Twinkle U/D 22/2/11 - Dental.

fluffiebunnie

Warren Veteran
What to do?

When pain, dental, overweight, has all been ruled out, what else would cause runny special poops?

Twinkle was doing no runny special poops when she was unwell and on metacam, zantac and Metoclopramide. She was eating tons of veggies, hay and limited pellets.

She was doing runny poops when just on metacam.

She has veggies in the morning, hay all day and limited SS pellets of a night.

She is my only bunny that has a problem with runny poops and I dont know whether she should have no veggies or no pellets or what???!!!

She has been on no medication for about a month now.

She has had runny special poops all her life and I am wondering if a problem with her tummy can cause this problem regardless of what is fed, as she was fine on gut stimulant meds?

Any thoughts?
 
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Sorry have no advice, but hope someone with more knowledge will come along and help you. Hope you get it sorted soon x
Helen x
 
Has she had blood tests? Liver problems can cause runny poops

Also a 3 day fecal sample may give you some answers and rule out things like coccidiosis
 
Has she had blood tests? Liver problems can cause runny poops

Also a 3 day fecal sample may give you some answers and rule out things like coccidiosis

She had blood tests in May/June when she was in statis and it didnt show anything abnormal. She does drink a lot.
 
If everything else has been ruled out my suspicions would be that bun is suffering from chronic caecal dysbiosis and radical dietary changes are required.

I would personally cut out the pellets full stop for atleast 6 weeks and see if they clear up. I would also be inclined to cut out the veg for several weeks minimum as well and feed bun just hay and dried herbs/leaves. This is what we did with Poppy and it took around 3 months for the dysbiosis to clear up completely, she can tolerate only certain veg in certain amounts but pellets are a no-no. Neither of my buns have pellets and it was the only way we found we could clear up the excess caecs for both of them, particularly Poppy who produced masses of malformed caecs from the day we adopted her. My personal view is that for some buns establishing the correct caecal flora can take months not weeks. Malnutrition does not occur over months either... more like years, so there is no harm in cutting out the pellets full stop as an experiment provided bun is able and willing to eat vast amounts of hay and has no weight gaining issues.

ETA Years ago I found this article very helpful:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=3012&S=1&SourceID=43
 
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If everything else has been ruled out my suspicions would be that bun is suffering from chronic caecal dysbiosis and radical dietary changes are required.

I would personally cut out the pellets full stop for atleast 6 weeks and see if they clear up. I would also be inclined to cut out the veg for several weeks minimum as well and feed bun just hay and dried herbs/leaves. This is what we did with Poppy and it took around 3 months for the dysbiosis to clear up completely, she can tolerate only certain veg in certain amounts but pellets are a no-no. Neither of my buns have pellets and it was the only way we found we could clear up the excess caecs for both of them, particularly Poppy who produced masses of malformed caecs from the day we adopted her. My personal view is that for some buns establishing the correct caecal flora can take months not weeks. Malnutrition does not occur over months either... more like years, so there is no harm in cutting out the pellets full stop as an experiment provided bun is able and willing to eat vast amounts of hay and has no weight gaining issues.

ETA Years ago I found this article very helpful:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=3012&S=1&SourceID=43


Thank you. That makes very interesting reading. I think I will give this a try. Just hay and water until the messy poops have gone.

It can't be anything infectious or parasitic otherwise her partner would get it too... it is just Twinkle... She loves her food so it will be hard to stop the veggies and pellets, but needs must... I have just given her a small amount of veggies for breakfast, but will not do the pellets this evening and start on the hay diet only. She does eat hay well so hopefully it will be ok.
 
Would a hay only diet need probiotics added to the drinking water? I have some here, so wonder whether I should add to the water bowl whilst eliminating veggies and pellets?
 
Thank you. That makes very interesting reading. I think I will give this a try. Just hay and water until the messy poops have gone.

It can't be anything infectious or parasitic otherwise her partner would get it too... it is just Twinkle... She loves her food so it will be hard to stop the veggies and pellets, but needs must... I have just given her a small amount of veggies for breakfast, but will not do the pellets this evening and start on the hay diet only. She does eat hay well so hopefully it will be ok.

Just take it a day at a time. I would never advise someone to starve a bun, so you will need to be very vigilant during this experiment of just hay that she is eating enough and her droppings continue to be passed regularly and monitor her weight also if you can. I think I did just hay only for a week, and then added in dried herbs and dried leaves (apple, hazel etc) because I have always found that these never cause upset and I wanted to give bun a bit of variation. Dried plantain and dried dandelions make a nice treat for a bun on the hay only diet. I did not add the veg in until the soft poops had disappeared completely and only did it very slowly. I found that adding in fresh grass/letting them graze on the lawn never affected the hay only diet as grass is hay of course. It is very hard to do I won't deny that you start to feel very guiltly very quickly but just had to keep telling ourselves it's for her benefit, they stop begging for pellets very quickly when nothing is forthcoming. Nino took about 6 weeks to clear up his caecs (he was just doing extra ones) but like I say, it took Poppy atleast 3 months of a hay/dried herb diet to stop the malformed caecs... gradually none were discarded just sticky stains on the blanket, and then gradually these disappeared too. In terms of adding in veg I find with Poppy she just can not tolerate anything from the brassica family except calabrese heads (limited). Cabbage, spring greens, brocoli etc always gives her the sticky stains again on her blanket whereas Nino can eat any veg in any quantity, his caecal flora is just more resilient. I believe that some buns have a far more sensitive caecum than others and there is nothing we can do about that other than tailor the diet appropriately. Poppy does much better on a wild type diet and the only greens that don't upset her are fresh herbs, so I try to use a lot of wild weeds and tree leaves instead of shop bought veg, it improves Nino's motility anyway, all buns seem to be respond better to a wilder diet than commercial human orientated vegetables! :):wave:
 
Would a hay only diet need probiotics added to the drinking water? I have some here, so wonder whether I should add to the water bowl whilst eliminating veggies and pellets?

No we didn't. Poppy actually tends to react to fibreplex by producing more discarded caecotrophs. I only use probiotics when bun is in stasis or bloat or on abx.

I personally feel that bun has the correct bacteria already in their caecum that they are designed to have as a species, the imbalance from inappropriate diet just upsets the balance. Correcting the diet allows the caecal flora to correct themselves naturally without the need for additional probiotics which may not necessarily be an exact match for a particular rabbit - indeed most probiotics are labelled as suitable for many species on the packaging and there is no way every species has the same bacterial make up in their guts IMO.
Excess protein and carbs upset the balance, as does slow motility, by feeding hay only you reduce the sugars and proteins ending up in the caecum and speed up motility - both allows the correct flora to flourish over time naturally. :)
 
No we didn't. Poppy actually tends to react to fibreplex by producing more discarded caecotrophs. I only use probiotics when bun is in stasis or bloat or on abx.

I personally feel that bun has the correct bacteria already in their caecum that they are designed to have as a species, the imbalance from inappropriate diet just upsets the balance. Correcting the diet allows the caecal flora to correct themselves naturally without the need for additional probiotics which may not necessarily be an exact match for a particular rabbit - indeed most probiotics are labelled as suitable for many species on the packaging and there is no way every species has the same bacterial make up in their guts IMO.
Excess protein and carbs upset the balance, as does slow motility, by feeding hay only you reduce the sugars and proteins ending up in the caecum and speed up motility - both allows the correct flora to flourish over time naturally. :)

Thank you.. you certainly know your stuff!!

She has had this problem for about three years... even eating grass causes major problems.
 
Thank you.. you certainly know your stuff!!

She has had this problem for about three years... even eating grass causes major problems.

When the caecum is unbalanced and has been for some time even normal safe rabbit forage can cause upset because the imbalance is so pronounced it takes very little to tip it that bit further. I would describe it as hypersensitised and therefore more reactive to smaller changes than a well balanced caecum. This is why you often find a bun with a robust caecal flora can tolerate occasional upset and changes much better than a bun who's caecum is on a knife-edge.
Yes there are certain neurological conditions such as megacolon - that can cause this type of illness and there are a few members on this group who have buns that suffer from this, but it is rare and I know you have an excellent vet who would have already considered this. My feelings would be to rule out the most common cause before considering the rarer one.

If grass at this point causes upset then I would stick to just hay to begin with and then add in any other dried forage you know doesn't upset her after a week or two as symptoms improve. You should see some gradual improvement after two weeks - if you do not, then I would talk to your vet as there may well be something a bit more unusual going on. Yes it took 3 months for Poppy's poops to clear up completely on hay only, but after about 2 weeks we did begin to see a small but noticeable improvement in quantity and consistency - the caecs became properly formed first rather than just splats.
 
When the caecum is unbalanced and has been for some time even normal safe rabbit forage can cause upset because the imbalance is so pronounced it takes very little to tip it that bit further. I would describe it as hypersensitised and therefore more reactive to smaller changes than a well balanced caecum. This is why you often find a bun with a robust caecal flora can tolerate occasional upset and changes much better than a bun who's caecum is on a knife-edge.
Yes there are certain neurological conditions such as megacolon - that can cause this type of illness and there are a few members on this group who have buns that suffer from this, but it is rare and I know you have an excellent vet who would have already considered this. My feelings would be to rule out the most common cause before considering the rarer one.

If grass at this point causes upset then I would stick to just hay to begin with and then add in any other dried forage you know doesn't upset her after a week or two as symptoms improve. You should see some gradual improvement after two weeks - if you do not, then I would talk to your vet as there may well be something a bit more unusual going on. Yes it took 3 months for Poppy's poops to clear up completely on hay only, but after about 2 weeks we did begin to see a small but noticeable improvement in quantity and consistency - the caecs became properly formed first rather than just splats.

Thanks. I was considering another vet trip, but always feel I am bothering him for silly things!! Daft as it sounds!

I dont want to waste his time if it is just a diet issue. I should be able to sort it myself. If after a while I see no improvement on a hay only diet then I will of course make another trip back to the vet!

Do you know where can I get dried leaves from? I do have some dried brambles but have been saving those in case Twinkle goes into statis again :oops:
 
Thanks. I was considering another vet trip, but always feel I am bothering him for silly things!! Daft as it sounds!

I dont want to waste his time if it is just a diet issue. I should be able to sort it myself. If after a while I see no improvement on a hay only diet then I will of course make another trip back to the vet!

Do you know where can I get dried leaves from? I do have some dried brambles but have been saving those in case Twinkle goes into statis again :oops:

Before I started drying my own, I have always got mine from the hayexperts :wave: I still get some from here and recently tried a few of galens gardens ones as well.
https://www.thehayexperts.co.uk/Nat...t=3a&page=1&osCsid=l6en6shuf9p450thurtq69cpc6
I have found the best ones to be the burns plantain and dandelion and coltsfoot, Naturals for jerusalem artichoke, coneflower and herbal garden and ginko (avoid any of the plus ones - these have added cereals) and Excel for mountain and country herbs. I would always stick to dried herbs only and avoid any biscuits, carrot things or those with added cereals etc.
I put them all into a big brown paper bag, mix it up and then put a handful on top of the hay in their litter tray each day (in winter twice a day as less outdoors time and less fresh forage available).

http://www.galensgarden.co.uk/galens-shop/galens-garden?cat=10 For a sensitive bun I would stick to plantains, nettle, lemon balm and raspberry leaf for starters.

If you can find a willow tree, apple or hazel tree with leaves left on you can cut the branches and dry the leaves in your airing cupboard or in a warm room and feed these also.
If you PM me your address I could send you a few tree branches with leaves on that I have spare and some home dried dandelions just to try out. :):wave:
 
Before I started drying my own, I have always got mine from the hayexperts :wave: I still get some from here and recently tried a few of galens gardens ones as well.
https://www.thehayexperts.co.uk/Nat...t=3a&page=1&osCsid=l6en6shuf9p450thurtq69cpc6
I have found the best ones to be the burns plantain and dandelion and coltsfoot, Naturals for jerusalem artichoke, coneflower and herbal garden and ginko (avoid any of the plus ones - these have added cereals) and Excel for mountain and country herbs. I would always stick to dried herbs only and avoid any biscuits, carrot things or those with added cereals etc.
I put them all into a big brown paper bag, mix it up and then put a handful on top of the hay in their litter tray each day (in winter twice a day as less outdoors time and less fresh forage available).

http://www.galensgarden.co.uk/galens-shop/galens-garden?cat=10 For a sensitive bun I would stick to plantains, nettle, lemon balm and raspberry leaf for starters.

If you can find a willow tree, apple or hazel tree with leaves left on you can cut the branches and dry the leaves in your airing cupboard or in a warm room and feed these also.
If you PM me your address I could send you a few tree branches with leaves on that I have spare and some home dried dandelions just to try out. :):wave:

Thank you that is kind. I dont want to put you to any trouble. If she is on hay only for a few weeks before introducing the dried stuff, then I will have time to order some bits in. She has had dried dandelion and plantain before so know she likes those (dont know if they upset her as everything has up till now).

What do I do about Sparkle? Her partner... should he have to have this new diet too or should I try and separate them at some point to get him to eat veggies/pellets?
 
Thank you that is kind. I dont want to put you to any trouble. If she is on hay only for a few weeks before introducing the dried stuff, then I will have time to order some bits in. She has had dried dandelion and plantain before so know she likes those (dont know if they upset her as everything has up till now).

What do I do about Sparkle? Her partner... should he have to have this new diet too or should I try and separate them at some point to get him to eat veggies/pellets?

Are you able to take him aside for a cuddle on your lap somewhere or just whilst he has his pellets and veggies? If he does not have any issues then I would definitely continue his diet as normal. We used to take Nino into the spare room (house buns) for his veggie supper and just shut the door on Poppy. I'm sure she could smell it on his breath! :lol:

It does make it tricky with a pair but as it's just him he can scoff an egg cup full of pellets i'm sure in no time, and his veggies he might just need 5 mins away from her to scoff those, as long as she can't see or smell them as that would clearly frustrate her. Poppy was none the wiser and when he came back i'd give them both some dried herbs, and him being full meant she would get most of them anyway.

ETA mind you eating less or no pellets sometimes won't do Sparkle any harm either but I would make sure he still has his veggies in normal amounts :D:wave:
 
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:wave:

I should have said to make sure you use a good quality hay or a variety of hays if possible for maximum nutritional value.

If the diet works and bun never goes back to pellets, then after things settle and you feel ready to introduce veggies again you will need to pay a bit more attention to Vit content - ideally a bun on no commercial mix should have a Vit A rich veg daily if possible - sadly this means leafy greens and generally the brassica/cabbage family, which is why I persisted with calabrese occasionally even for Poppy as this seems to cause the least upset of that family. However, many other leafy greens contain Vit A such as carrot-tops, parsley, watercress etc.

I found these two little books very helpful references:
http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=982

http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=207
 
:wave:

I should have said to make sure you use a good quality hay or a variety of hays if possible for maximum nutritional value.

If the diet works and bun never goes back to pellets, then after things settle and you feel ready to introduce veggies again you will need to pay a bit more attention to Vit content - ideally a bun on no commercial mix should have a Vit A rich veg daily if possible - sadly this means leafy greens and generally the brassica/cabbage family, which is why I persisted with calabrese occasionally even for Poppy as this seems to cause the least upset of that family. However, many other leafy greens contain Vit A such as carrot-tops, parsley, watercress etc.

I found these two little books very helpful references:
http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=982

http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=38&products_id=207

I get farm baled hay, which is munched by all the bunnies very well.. It has some dried wild flowers and leaves in it which they always pick out first. Hope this hay is going to be ok.

I will try and feed Sparkle seperately although Twinkle is so food-minded that she will be hard to fool :lol:

If you dont mind, can I PM if I need further advice/guidance as I try this new diet for Twinkle? Dont want to bore the whole forum with my troubles!
 
I get farm baled hay, which is munched by all the bunnies very well.. It has some dried wild flowers and leaves in it which they always pick out first. Hope this hay is going to be ok.

I will try and feed Sparkle seperately although Twinkle is so food-minded that she will be hard to fool :lol:

If you dont mind, can I PM if I need further advice/guidance as I try this new diet for Twinkle? Dont want to bore the whole forum with my troubles!

Yes no probs at all :D:wave: I also think however this thread will be helpful to others who have similar problems with sticky bottoms - it is a common complaint on here!

Your hay sounds fab :D
 
Yes no probs at all :D:wave: I also think however this thread will be helpful to others who have similar problems with sticky bottoms - it is a common complaint on here!

Your hay sounds fab :D

Well if it can help other bunnies with mucky bums then I will keep this thread going as a bit of a diary... to see if it helps! I might rename the title with what you say it might be to help others..
 
Don't have any experience, but hope prettylupin's helpful advice can sort out poor Twinkle mucky bum problem. Poor Twinkle.
 
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