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Urgent Help please!

K

Kittykat23uk

Mama Doe
Things are not going well. We brought Julie and Jordan home yesterday. Sprocket and Widget seemed fine last night and early this morning but I went to check on them again and now there's fur all over the place, mainly Sprocket's, so Widget has attacked Sprocket! I've brought them both in and checked him over but I can't see any blood, but he is flinching a little when I try to stroke his head. :cry::cry:

I don't know what to do. Should I wait and see if Widget settles down? Or should I take Julie and Jordan back? I've got nowhere to keep Sprocket and Widget away from each other or from the two new girls. Now that they are in they seem to be acting normally.

Edit: He does have a wound on his ear :cry::cry:

HELP!

Jo
 
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i'm no expert! i don't know enough about the background of your putting these four together.
who are julie and jordan? where are they? did you put them right in with sprocket and widget? great names, by the way!
 
You need to move J+J totally out of S + W's sight,sound and smell

It's referred aggression

If there is absolutely no possibility of housing the two pairs well away from each other in the initial stages then I am afraid you may need to return J+J

It is possible to get two pairs, or more, to live in harmony in close proximity. But as with actual bonding you cant expect it to happen by just putting two pairs right next door to each other straight away.

I would check again for fight wounds later, it's easy to miss a fresh puncture wound but after a couple of hours it'll be more obvious.
 
Julie and Jordan are two female buns from the Lymington rescue. Sprocket and widget are my male/female pair. They are not in together but The new buns were put in the aviary which adjoins the kennel in which Sprocket and Widget live (sprocket and widget do not and haven't ever had access to the aviary), so they can see each other but can't get to each other:


E620 bunny house 005 by kittykat23uk, on Flickr

I was told that should be okay by two rescues, although advice on here has been conflicting. They can't be bonded until Julie has been speyed, Jordan has already been done, they are both 4 months old.

Thanks for the advice Jane, this is what I feared might be the case. Unless I go out today and buy a new hutch and run and put it further down the garden I'll have to take them back and I don't know that we've got the room to do that.
 
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thanks! happily, in the meantime, jane turned up and pronounced with authority. everything will be fine if you follow her advice! good luck with your new buns, i hope they don't have to go back.
 
Sorry but it does sound like what Jane said about referred aggression. is there no way at all of doing a temp set up for the girls at all? seems such a shame when you've only just got the girls but obviously you have to think about your original pair and their bond.
 
The only other place I could keep them would be in the spare room, but given these buns are used to being outside I'd worry they might overheat if kept in for a long time.:(
 
Kittykat23uk said:
The only other place I could keep them would be in the spare room, but given these buns are used to being outside I'd worry they might overheat if kept in for a long time.:(
Click to expand...

As long as you can keep that room at a reasonable temperature-ie turn off the radiators etc, then they should be fine in there. They wont be able to go outdoors til next Spring though.
 
As Jane says this is classic redirected/referred aggression. You will need to rethink your setups to prevent this happening. Can you put a solid board that can not be seen through down the partition between the two runs? Sometimes just obscuring sight of the other buns can work, but be aware that smell alone can be sufficient to spark a fight between a bonded pair. I'm sorry this has happened, i've experienced something very similar when we fostered a bun with my two but the fighting happened even though they couldn't see the other bun, just smell his scent. We had to keep them indoors totally until he was rehomed and have never fostered or considered more buns since. Some pairs do tolerate it and settle down, but it's not always straightforward i'm afraid.
 
Unfortunately if I did that it would mean Sprocket and widget would be in darkness all the time, the only light gerring through to the Kennel is from the aviary..
 
Kittykat23uk said:
Unfortunately if I did that it would mean Sprocket and widget would be in darkness all the time, the only light gerring through to the Kennel is from the aviary..
Click to expand...

Is there any possibility of setting the aviary up temporarily somewhere else in the garden?

Looking at the set up you'd probably need more panels or a sheet of wood for the fourth side but it would probably be cheaper than a whole new hutch/run set up.
 
prettylupin said:
As Jane says this is classic redirected/referred aggression. You will need to rethink your setups to prevent this happening. Can you put a solid board that can not be seen through down the partition between the two runs? Sometimes just obscuring sight of the other buns can work, but be aware that smell alone can be sufficient to spark a fight between a bonded pair. I'm sorry this has happened, i've experienced something very similar when we fostered a bun with my two but the fighting happened even though they couldn't see the other bun, just smell his scent. We had to keep them indoors totally until he was rehomed and have never fostered or considered more buns since. Some pairs do tolerate it and settle down, but it's not always straightforward i'm afraid.
Click to expand...

This is what I was going to suggest because its worked with all my referred aggression cases, but if that will keep Sprocket and Widget in total darkness, then that's obviouly not an option.

I'm sorry its not gone smoothly for you.
 
Hi,

I have to agree with the other posters, that this is classic referred agression - introducing new bunnies to an established pairs environment can often trigger this.

It should stop as quickly as it started if the situation re accommodation is resolved.

I have two of my pairs that do this when other bunnies are right in the faces (next to their hutch) but that are fine and dandy if they are a bit further away. (Makes fostering/rescuing interesting)

Were you planning on bonding all four eventually? If not, then I'd have to suggest completely seperate accommodation if you aren't able to totally divide your existing to give suitable housing for both pairs.

It would be a shame for you to have to return your new buns but referred agression is a real problem and you don't want to escalate into a broken bond.

If you are planning to bond them (or have them bonded) is there a reason why Wood Green didn't do it for you already before coming home?

Sorry for the questions but I haven't been following your story to date.
 
The plan was to bond them into a four. We were hoping this could be done soon but only one of the buns could be speyed. So we couldn't try to bond them for two months. No one we spoke to at the rescues raised the issue of the pens being adjoining so we didn't realise that this was going to be a problem.

Unfortunately, after speaking to wood green, it seems Widget is the jealous type and they think we might be better with another male/female apiring if we are looking for a group. So we think the only option is to return them to the centre. :cry:

I'm devastated.
 
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Kittykat23uk said:
Unfortunately, after speaking to wood green we think the only option is to return them to the centre. :cry:

I'm devastated.
Click to expand...

I am sorry.

Is it not possible to do anything with the housing to enable you to keep them? I know Wood Green like very large and spacious set ups so I guess if they have rehomed based on what you've got now it might be difficult to set up another set to meet their requirements, but can't they be bonded for you (although if they show referred agression already it may not be an option)?
 
wood green don't do bonding on site and they can't be bonded yet because Julie isn't speyed. I'm sorry, I just think it will be better to take them back.
 
Kittykat23uk said:
The plan was to bond them into a four. We were hoping this could be done soon but only one of the buns could be speyed. So we couldn't try to bond them for two months. No one we spoke to at the rescues raised the issue of the pens being adjoining so we didn't realise that this was going to be a problem.

Unfortunately, after speaking to wood green, it seems Widget is the jealous type and they think we might be better with another male/female apiring if we are looking for a group. So we think the only option is to return them to the centre. :cry:

I'm devastated.
Click to expand...

Ah okay, that's such a shame. Fours are tricky at the best of times so it's better to try it with buns tha look like their temperaments might suit. Having said that, referred agression can sometimes only be when the existing buns feel threatened by others in THEIR SPACE, so by moving all to neutral you may see a different outcome.

This is such a shame, I am sorry.

When the Lymington Twins went home to live with Diamondgirl the other week, we knew that the two existing boys may not like having new neighbours so David and Sarah were ready to add a divider to the set up, but luckily for them the boys took it fairly well and all is now quiet.
 
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