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View Full Version : Numpty vet U/D pst 13 vet wont budge!



Boudicca
05-11-2010, 07:07 PM
A friend called for advice her bun has developed head tilt and rolling eyes, quite lively in herself! Told her to get to vet sounds like EC and she would need Panacur AND metacam! Vet said no to the metacam just panacur and wouldn't prescribe it!!!!! Sent her home and told her to come back Monday for check-up! So we need some documented evidence please for our friend to show the vet to prove she needs metacam. The Rabbit welfare sheet just mentions steroids and panacur?!

Jack's-Jane
05-11-2010, 07:11 PM
Did the Vet administer a STEROID injection?

If so DO NOT GIVE BUN METACAM

http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/S/00dis/Parasitic/Encephalitozoonosis.htm

parsnipbun
05-11-2010, 07:28 PM
Steroids are usually contra-indicated for rabbits nowadays so do be very very wary of these unless administered by a very rabbit savvy vet.

Metacam is an absolute must usually for EC or other (multitude of rabbit related problems) problems associated either with pain or swelling,

Panacur is also very commonly used for EC

I would seriously suggest a different vet.

Did they check ears at all? or take a blood sample for EC?

Boudicca
05-11-2010, 07:35 PM
Did the Vet administer a STEROID injection?

If so DO NOT GIVE BUN METACAM

http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/S/00dis/Parasitic/Encephalitozoonosis.htm

Thanks Jane! No only panacur! I know the bunny needs some sort of anti-inflammatory and I know many people use metacam rather than a steroid?! Should she show the info to the vet and ask him to use the steroid mentioned instead?

Santa
05-11-2010, 07:37 PM
Has the bun also got any antibiotics? I think it's fairly common for vets to cover all basis by giving antibiotics in case the cause is an inner ear infection, or indeed if such an infection is accompanying the EC.

I've certainly sat in lectures with some of the most bunny savvy vets in the country and they all say that panacur treats the parasite but not the inflammation - metacam (or steroids initially in some severe cases) is needed to treat the inflammation associated with the infection, as it is this that causes the symptoms.

Not sure if I have anything in particular written down to prove that though...

Boudicca
05-11-2010, 07:41 PM
Steroids are usually contra-indicated for rabbits nowadays so do be very very wary of these unless administered by a very rabbit savvy vet.

Metacam is an absolute must usually for EC or other (multitude of rabbit related problems) problems associated either with pain or swelling,

Panacur is also very commonly used for EC

I would seriously suggest a different vet.

Did they check ears at all? or take a blood sample for EC?

no they were rubbish!! Can you still have eye rolling with an ear infection? We will definately suggest a different vet although I think she has a friend that works there so might be a bit awkward for her!

Boudicca
05-11-2010, 07:43 PM
No no antibiotics either!! can a blood test distinguish between EC and an ear infection?

parsnipbun
05-11-2010, 08:15 PM
Well - I am NOT a vet - but from what I have heard and experienced, eye flickering and rolling is not usually an ear infection (Jsomeone will come on and correct me if I am wrong on that).

A blood test can tell if the rabbit has in the past been exposed to EC although without running two tests close together it will not tell if the rabbit has an active (raised) EC count which is raising or falling - and nowadays many vets just don't bother with the test and treat on the assumption that EC is the most likely.

However if the vet gives antibiotics as well it will cover all bases.

An ear infection can be SEEN by looking down ear! unless it is very very very deep. The vet surely checked that????


So . . . metacam, Panacur and abx are the most normal vet response to this situation - along with examination of eyes, ears etc and perhaps a blood test - later a urine test to see if EC has affected kidneys.

parsnipbun
05-11-2010, 08:15 PM
no they were rubbish!! Can you still have eye rolling with an ear infection? We will definately suggest a different vet although I think she has a friend that works there so might be a bit awkward for her!

The friend may know that the vets are rubbish with rabbits!!

Boudicca
05-11-2010, 08:38 PM
Well - I am NOT a vet - but from what I have heard and experienced, eye flickering and rolling is not usually an ear infection (Jsomeone will come on and correct me if I am wrong on that).

A blood test can tell if the rabbit has in the past been exposed to EC although without running two tests close together it will not tell if the rabbit has an active (raised) EC count which is raising or falling - and nowadays many vets just don't bother with the test and treat on the assumption that EC is the most likely.

However if the vet gives antibiotics as well it will cover all bases.

An ear infection can be SEEN by looking down ear! unless it is very very very deep. The vet surely checked that????


So . . . metacam, Panacur and abx are the most normal vet response to this situation - along with examination of eyes, ears etc and perhaps a blood test - later a urine test to see if EC has affected kidneys.

Thank you for all the advice! Another RU member is going round tomorrow to see the little bunny (I might be able to go to!) and she's taking all this info with her! Hopefully it will be enough to convince the vet to change his mind if not I hope we can convince her to switch vets asap!

Santa
05-11-2010, 08:44 PM
There's some useful info on ear infections here: http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/otitis_interna_media.PDF It's an american page though so some of the drug stuff is different (e.g. you can't get bicillin here).

If you look at the stuff on inner ear infections in particular you can see that it does present with some of the same symptoms as ec (and indeed it has been suggested that this presentation of ec may even be because the ec has caused an inner ear infection). Interestingly the article suggests that horizontal eye movement is indicative of infection and vertical movement indicative of ec. I've not heard that before elsewhere though!

Either way, it suggests antibiotics and anti-inflammatories such as metacam for these symptoms - which is partly why many vets give it as well as panacur to cover all bases. Even if infection is ruled out, metacam is definitely recommended for ec as well, for the reasons I said earlier.

Good luck, hopefully this bun can get some better treatment from this or another vet very soon xx

Boudicca
05-11-2010, 09:32 PM
Thank you! V interesting about the eye movement! If I get to see her tomorrow I'll see if there is a definate movement in a particular direction! Thanks for the article it will be added to my growing collection of bunny info! Can't believe the wealth of info on this forum :D

Boudicca
09-11-2010, 09:32 AM
The ongoing saga... Star went back to the vet on Monday and her owner insisted on metacam to go with the panacur but she was only given 3 days worth and told to come back in a week where they might have to make some 'decisions' :shock:

So Ive just phoned the vet and calmly (not sure how) discussed her treatment. She was adamant that they only prescribe panacur and the only reason they gave a token 3 days metacam was becuae it was asked for!! The vet said the parasite has already caused the neurological damage so giving an anti-inflammatory has no effect :shock: Ive said I know bunnies who have presented with clinical symptoms go on to make a full recovery. I even mentioned the current research that can be found online but she would not budge!

So I went on to ask about maybe prescribing an antibiotic in case it is a deep ear infection. She said theres no point in prescribing for something you cant see as the rabbit would build up its resistence to antibiotics and they would be useless next time you needed them!

There was no arguing with this woman! Poor little Star :cry: The bunnies owner thinks that myself and another forum member are a bit OTT with bunnies and is really reluctant to go against what the vet is telling her so is unlikely to change vets :(

I feel so bad :( Star and her husbun Toffee are the reason I have Dudley and Daisy and the reason I found RU. I looked after them when they were little. They were underweight and infested with mites, Star had some nasty bite wounds on her back. I helped nurse them back to health and then they went to their forever home (I cried my heart out and got D&D :D). This is a picture of them when they were with me, Star is the white and black bunny she has grown into her ears a bit more now she is 2!

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz309/Boudicca_2009/StarToffee.jpg

ETA: for the Essex contingency this was Spring Lodge :shock: thought they were supposed to be good!!!

abbymarysmokey
09-11-2010, 09:41 AM
So I went on to ask about maybe prescribing an antibiotic in case it is a deep ear infection. She said theres no point in prescribing for something you cant see as the rabbit would build up its resistence to antibiotics and they would be useless next time you needed them!


That's really made me angry (at the vet not you). What twisted logic... to not prescribe antibioics because it would build up the rabbit's resistance when it's obvious they intend to put her to sleep anyway!

My Dominic recently had head tilt caused by ear infection, and after a few months of antibiotics, metacam and stemetil is almost back to normal.

Head tilt does need to be treated aggressively, and unless the vet is willing to help then unfortunately it might be best to just PTS now :(

areia
09-11-2010, 09:46 AM
i think pictures of rU bunnies who have recovered from EC and treatments recieved are in order, flood them to the owner and to the vet, clearly the vet cannot be bothered to do her research another vet not keen on rabbits

abbymarysmokey
09-11-2010, 09:48 AM
Well - I am NOT a vet - but from what I have heard and experienced, eye flickering and rolling is not usually an ear infection (Jsomeone will come on and correct me if I am wrong on that).



You would expect to see eye flickering and rolling with an ear infection. It's because one of the functions of the ear is balance...and if this organ isn't working properly the rabbit will be dizzy and feel like it's spinning...hence the rolling and flickering eyes.

parsnipbun
09-11-2010, 09:54 AM
You would expect to see eye flickering and rolling with an ear infection. It's because one of the functions of the ear is balance...and if this organ isn't working properly the rabbit will be dizzy and feel like it's spinning...hence the rolling and flickering eyes.

Thank you for correcting me - I was basing it on my experience but perhaps my ear infection buns just did not present with that at all - they had different symptoms with their ear infections (one very severe infection) whereas my EC buns have both presented with rapidly flickering eyes.

Perhaps Jacks Jane has noted eye flickering with Morse? Would be worth asking.

Sky-O
09-11-2010, 09:56 AM
Are you the people in/near Colchester?

I can recommend a great vet for treating headtilt in Ipswich. He treated two of mine (both who had nystagmus) and they improved dramatically. One was left with a residual tilt but she had had many months without treatment prior to coming to me (she was seized by the RSPCA as a cruelty case).

If you want me to recommend a vet then please just PM me :)

abbymarysmokey
09-11-2010, 09:58 AM
Thank you for correcting me - I was basing it on my experience but perhaps my ear infection buns just did not present with that at all - they had different symptoms with their ear infections (one very severe infection) whereas my EC buns have both presented with rapidly flickering eyes.

Perhaps Jacks Jane has noted eye flickering with Morse? Would be worth asking.

You're right that it's not necessarily a symptom of ear infection...only if the balance organ is affected, which (thankfully) isn't particularly common

*Spider*
09-11-2010, 10:00 AM
This was Spring Lodge?
What on Earth!?!
Please can you confirm what branch, and vet so I will not use this person in future :evil:
Where's our Damien when you need him? :(

Elena
09-11-2010, 10:00 AM
i think pictures of rU bunnies who have recovered from EC and treatments recieved are in order, flood them to the owner and to the vet, clearly the vet cannot be bothered to do her research another vet not keen on rabbits

If you would like these I have some...

At his illest (his body was upright, his head in this position parallel to the floor)...
http://images51.fotki.com/v1544/photos/7/768474/5312770/DSC00137-vi.jpg

Ill... (this was actually after he started improving slightly)
http://images116.fotki.com/v699/photos/4/768474/8682741/IMGP4365-vi.jpg
http://images43.fotki.com/v679/photos/4/768474/8682741/IMGP4394-vi.jpg

Now...
http://images116.fotki.com/v695/photos/4/768474/9209418/_IGP0696-vi.jpg
http://images57.fotki.com/v80/photos/4/768474/9209418/_IGP0705-vi.jpg
http://images47.fotki.com/v1588/photos/4/768474/9133928/_IGP0514-vi.jpg

It took 2-3 weeks, not days, before he showed improvement.

Hugo's There
09-11-2010, 10:15 AM
Our vet says a similar thing about antibiotic resistance :?

While I would agree that Metacam is very important part of treatment for EC , on 2 recent occasions we have only been able to give panacur as there were also indications of kidney problems and the vet advised us to stop the metacam.

I think it is so hard to know what to do for the best in many of these cases :cry:

Boudicca
09-11-2010, 01:12 PM
That's really made me angry (at the vet not you). What twisted logic... to not prescribe antibioics because it would build up the rabbit's resistance when it's obvious they intend to put her to sleep anyway!

I agree! Why not just try it even if they dont agree with it, its a whole lot better than their alternative!

Sky-O yes Im at Colchester and Star lives in Braintree, but even if her owner wont swap Id still be interested in your rabbit savvy vet. I currently use Penrose but I wouldnt really trust them with anything other than the usual; rabbit problems!


This was Spring Lodge?
What on Earth!?!
Please can you confirm what branch, and vet so I will not use this person in future :evil:
Where's our Damien when you need him? :(

Yup Spring Lodge I was shocked!! Think she saw Joe and Portia! As neither of them were available at Witham this morning a vet phoned me from Black Notley didnt catch her name but it might have been Joe?!

Thank you Schuette I think I will be printing of a few piccies and RU stories! I think it will help Stars owner to see that its not all doom and gloom with the correct medication! Plus I may well send the info to the senior vet at the practice!

I do appreciate the issue with antibiotic resistence but in this case where they dont know for sure if its EC or a deep ear infection I think they should be precautionary and treat both!

Im hoping that its not too late for Star with the delay in getting her the medication she needs to make a full recovery!

Thank you all for your input!

Maltilda&twinks
09-11-2010, 09:49 PM
If you would like these I have some...

At his illest (his body was upright, his head in this position parallel to the floor)...
http://images51.fotki.com/v1544/photos/7/768474/5312770/DSC00137-vi.jpg

Ill... (this was actually after he started improving slightly)
http://images116.fotki.com/v699/photos/4/768474/8682741/IMGP4365-vi.jpg
http://images43.fotki.com/v679/photos/4/768474/8682741/IMGP4394-vi.jpg

Now...
http://images116.fotki.com/v695/photos/4/768474/9209418/_IGP0696-
vi.jpg
http://images57.fotki.com/v80/photos/4/768474/9209418/_IGP0705-vi.jpg

http://images47.fotki.com/v1588/photos/4/768474/9133928/_IGP0514-vi.jpg

It took 2-3 weeks, not days, before he showed improvement.


Wow thank you this is exactly how little star is looking at the moment and were u given metacam for him?

Santa
09-11-2010, 09:58 PM
I'd be inclined to complain to the head vet and ask them to fax the Bristol Rabbit Clinic for advice on treating these sorts of symptoms. If they are so convinced that metacam is no use, then they won't have anything to fear because Bristol should confirm their view...and if that isn't the case, well they will have learnt something won't they.

It's particularly disappointing as Spring Lodge are supposed to have a good reputation with rabbits. Maybe the suggestion to their head vet that they might lose some clients if they lose that repuation, wouldn't go amiss...

Elena
09-11-2010, 10:09 PM
Wow thank you this is exactly how little star is looking at the moment and were u given metacam for him?

Glad I can help. It's tough. The toughest part is seeing them unable to stand but all the nursing and the pain watching him has been made up with by the at least three years since I've had with him. I pray there are many more to come.

I wasn't given metacam, he had several steroid injections along with a course of Baytril and at least two tubes in total of Panacur. But not only was 3 years ago now and at my old vets who weren't particularly rabbit savvy. Competent but not experienced with rabbits. It sounds to me based on this thread that the advice has changed in recent years to suggest Metacam instead of steroids.

ETA. Now I think about it I'm not sure. I've always assumed it was steroids (I have a bad memory - was sure the vet said steroid but I was a mess that day so who knows!) cos I thought Metacam only came in drops but it doesn't does it. Maybe it was Metacam. He had them that day, the day after and a couple of days after that, and maybe a week after that too.

Boudicca
10-11-2010, 09:12 AM
Schuette it may well have been a steroid! Having looked on the internet it seems that cortico-steroids were used a lot more a few years ago but now they are contraindicated in rabbits most are prescribed a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory like metacam.

Santa we are going to construct a letter with evidence to send to the practice owner and senior vet. We will add in the suggestion for them to contact the Bristol Rabbit Clinic!

This is a piccy Matilda&Twinks sent to me after her visit last night! She doesnt look quite as bad as some of the worst cases on here!

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz309/Boudicca_2009/Star9Nov2010.jpg

KarenM
10-11-2010, 09:32 AM
Poor Star. I have no experience of EC personally but, from stories I've read on here and photos I've seen, Star seems to have a very good chance of recovery with the right treatment.

How frustrating that the vet doesn't seem open to any kind of suggestions and, from what you've described, has no real interest in bunny medicine at all. :(

Hope you get somewhere with the letter. :thumb:

Elena
10-11-2010, 10:34 AM
Schuette it may well have been a steroid! Having looked on the internet it seems that cortico-steroids were used a lot more a few years ago but now they are contraindicated in rabbits most are prescribed a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory like metacam.

Santa we are going to construct a letter with evidence to send to the practice owner and senior vet. We will add in the suggestion for them to contact the Bristol Rabbit Clinic!

This is a piccy Matilda&Twinks sent to me after her visit last night! She doesnt look quite as bad as some of the worst cases on here!

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz309/Boudicca_2009/Star9Nov2010.jpg

I'm afraid so much was going on and I was so worried about him, Mischa is my special bun (not that I don't love the others but he has that something special), that I never took a lot in. I remember the Baytril and Panacur as I was doing that myself at home. I wonder what the contra-indications are. I knew little about rabbits and care back then. In fact that was the first time he'd been to a vet! I just didn't know about vaccinations. I was always going to get him neutered but past that I had no clue! Didn't even have a carrier! :oops:

The other thing obviously is making sure that he's eating. I was blessed in that Mischa is a pig and eats constantly, so I didn't have too much of an issue here. He hated Critical Care but was still eating his mix and hay. I did have to help him with the mix as he struggled to get to the bowl so had to handfeed him. He also appreciated having water syringed into his mouth.

Poor little mite. I hope he can get the treatment he needs. Sadly many vets seem to see this and think it's incurable or difficult to treat, I guess cos it looks so awful. We saw several different vets at the same practice over the period when he was ill and one took one look at him and said 'we must think carefully about whether to PTS'. I refused point blank as he was starting to improve and left the practice in floods of tears.

Maltilda&twinks
11-11-2010, 09:38 PM
Poor little mite. I hope he can get the treatment he needs. Sadly many vets seem to see this and think it's incurable or difficult to treat, I guess cos it looks so awful. We saw several different vets at the same practice over the period when he was ill and one took one look at him and said 'we must think carefully about whether to PTS'. I refused point blank as he was starting to improve and left the practice in floods of tears.

She is taking star to the vet again on Monday as she is worried about the weight and only eating small amount of greens. I have told her if the vet says to pts then I will take star and her husbun toffee and medicate from there. I feel really useless and so sorry for star I really hooe she shows improvement soon. Xx thanks for your comments and pics they really help x