Molar Spurs- How do i check to see if they are forming?

If you have dental buns who get spurs, rather than wait until they show symptoms of being uncomfortable or going for routine check ups, can you check yourself for evidence of spurs- does anyone do this?

I don't want to leave them too long before i go to the vets again and i got no indication whatsoever about when i ought to bring them back for check ups.

Any ideas? Thanks xx

Some experienced people check using an otoscope.

I personally look for their behaviour as opposed to phsyical symptoms (like drooling, lack of appetite, etc) to tell me when they need a dental. My vet says that I bring my bunnies in far earlier than other people do with spurs, so that tells me that my method and what I look for works for my buns.

I have 11 dental bunnies and two other who will probably become them in due course. None of them have ever had their mouth cut by spurs or anything like that. The worst I've had was Sandy started to drool a small amount but still always kept eating.

I use an otoscope.

HOWEVER, in a conscious Rabbit it is impossible to be 100% certain that there are no spurs even if you cannot see any using a 'scope.

Signs of inflammation/bruising/ulceration/infection in soft tissue can sometimes be observed using a 'scope. The presence of alot of saliva in the mouth is another clue that spurs may be an issue.

I also slide my little finger along the outer surface of the molars. Sharp points and spurs can sometimes be detected this way. But you cant do that along the inner side of the molars or you are very likely to lose a finger in the process.

None of the above are ever a substitute for a Veterinary examination though.

Jack's-Jane said:

I use an otoscope.

HOWEVER, in a conscious Rabbit it is impossible to be 100% certain that there are no spurs even if you cannot see any using a 'scope.

Signs of inflammation/bruising/ulceration/infection in soft tissue can sometimes be observed using a 'scope. The presence of alot of saliva in the mouth is another clue that spurs may be an issue.

I also slide my little finger along the outer surface of the molars. Sharp points and spurs can sometimes be detected this way. But you cant do that along the inner side of the molars or you are very likely to lose a finger in the process.

None of the above are ever a substitute for a Veterinary examination though.

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I've never heard of that. It makes me want to try it for a laugh to see if i can do that with any of mine. I won't though. I value my fingers.


ETA- I would presume that if anyone wanted to use an otoscope they would need to be taught how by their vet.

Jack's-Jane said:

I use an otoscope.

HOWEVER, in a conscious Rabbit it is impossible to be 100% certain that there are no spurs even if you cannot see any using a 'scope.

Signs of inflammation/bruising/ulceration/infection in soft tissue can sometimes be observed using a 'scope. The presence of alot of saliva in the mouth is another clue that spurs may be an issue.

I also slide my little finger along the outer surface of the molars. Sharp points and spurs can sometimes be detected this way. But you cant do that along the inner side of the molars or you are very likely to lose a finger in the process.
None of the above are ever a substitute for a Veterinary examination though.

Click to expand...

When I took Dolly to the vet for a health check (petshop bun) when I got her, there was a new vet who use this method, I was :shock: as none of the other vets had ever done this, she said if you know the technique it is easy to do and identify any probs....she was very good vet, will be seeing her from now on....Dolly was good too and all ok

I know with my bun by what he eats, & drinks & gradual reduction in poops.
Apparently he does it wrong for a dental bun.:roll:
1st. he drinks noisily then stops, then he goes off tough food like hay/leaves, eating them 1 day & not the next.
These subtle changes have been enough to get his dental done before he gets a sore mouth.
They usually need a dental at a set time when they get older, which also helps.

Sky-O said:

Some experienced people check using an otoscope.

I personally look for their behaviour as opposed to phsyical symptoms (like drooling, lack of appetite, etc) to tell me when they need a dental. My vet says that I bring my bunnies in far earlier than other people do with spurs, so that tells me that my method and what I look for works for my buns.

I have 11 dental bunnies and two other who will probably become them in due course. None of them have ever had their mouth cut by spurs or anything like that. The worst I've had was Sandy started to drool a small amount but still always kept eating.

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Otoscope- Yes that's what the vet used- patch tried bitting at it.

I don't get any of the lack of appetite with them - except hay, but that's an ongoing problem. All my buns eat pellets fine and veggies, except sunny who can't get veg even when chopped up tiny, but he doesn't have spur probs.

It's just blaze and patch with spurs, the others have incisor problems, which are easier to deal with. Going under anesthetic month in month seems like it is going to be stressful for them- is there anything additional i can do to reduce stress, except painkillers and keeping them inside and warm and with chopped veggies etc.

11 Dental bunnies- gosh that must be tiring. Do they all have eye problems too as a consequence of that?

Glad to hear non of them have experienced too much pain. xx

Jack's-Jane said:

I use an otoscope.

HOWEVER, in a conscious Rabbit it is impossible to be 100% certain that there are no spurs even if you cannot see any using a 'scope.

Signs of inflammation/bruising/ulceration/infection in soft tissue can sometimes be observed using a 'scope. The presence of alot of saliva in the mouth is another clue that spurs may be an issue.

I also slide my little finger along the outer surface of the molars. Sharp points and spurs can sometimes be detected this way. But you cant do that along the inner side of the molars or you are very likely to lose a finger in the process.

None of the above are ever a substitute for a Veterinary examination though.

Click to expand...

Yikes Jane- i think i'll keep my fingers. May i ask how many buns you have with spurs?

Do they sometimes need to see a vet more than once a month- every two weeks perhaps for checkups? I don't know how often they should be seen, the vets gave me no indication.

It's prob worth getting an otoscope to help check up on them. Thanks for the info on this. I think blaze would be fine about that- patch not so much. He has learnt bitting after his visit to the vets and is much more happy to engage in nipping as a way of punishing me if i do something not to his liking- i.e giving meds or anything around his mouth. He is a love though bless him.

I'm not sure if i ought to bond him to blaze now at a later date- as i don't want him nipping blaze. Blaze never bites, but he runs at you and protects his food- i don't know if too more dominating characters may struggle to bond or have issues.

Anyways going off track, there is no chance I'll be putting my fingers in any of my bunny's mouths xx

thumps_ said:

I know with my bun by what he eats, & drinks & gradual reduction in poops.
Apparently he does it wrong for a dental bun.:roll:
1st. he drinks noisily then stops, then he goes off tough food like hay/leaves, eating them 1 day & not the next.
These subtle changes have been enough to get his dental done before he gets a sore mouth.
They usually need a dental at a set time when they get older, which also helps.

Click to expand...

Blaze always seems poorly, so it's hard to tell when my two buns with spurs are more poorly because they have constantly runny eyes too- they are on steroid antibiotics for this. The vet said it's most likely a pasturella infection, but I've still to do tests for this. It is on my to do list. I may actually get that done tomorrow when i go in for blazes post op.

xx

p.s any idea how much culture tests cost on average?

One vet I used to see (who has sadly now moved out of the area) used to check my dental bun's teeth by putting her fingers inside and feeling. She could pick up the spurs this way even when she couldn't see them using the 'scope.

My vet does get me to look through the 'scope so I can see the spurs so I think he woud probably be happy to teach me how to use one. Wonder how expensive they are. It would be great if I could check myself as my buns get so incredibly stressed at the vet and I often take them for a dental check and they are fine.

my dental bun casper just went for his mxyi jab today and i asked the same Q i said do you want me to bring him regually now she said your a good observer and you always come in at the right time when the spures are not bad so dont worry.. i look for signs like casper goes off certiain foods e.g his hay and eats kale (softer) instead also he get a watery eye and its time to go down the vets! :wave:

Ambience said:

Otoscope- Yes that's what the vet used- patch tried bitting at it.

I don't get any of the lack of appetite with them - except hay, but that's an ongoing problem. All my buns eat pellets fine and veggies, except sunny who can't get veg even when chopped up tiny, but he doesn't have spur probs.

It's just blaze and patch with spurs, the others have incisor problems, which are easier to deal with. Going under anesthetic month in month seems like it is going to be stressful for them- is there anything additional i can do to reduce stress, except painkillers and keeping them inside and warm and with chopped veggies etc.

11 Dental bunnies- gosh that must be tiring. Do they all have eye problems too as a consequence of that?

Glad to hear non of them have experienced too much pain. xx

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Only Wish and Star have eye problems that go with dental issues, the rest just need sporadic dentals. I'm lucky in that sense, but my rabbits diets are all so strict because of that, they get either one science selective, or about 5-6 burgess pellets (depending on what they normally have) and then rest is hay and grass. Pretty boring for them but its increased the time between dentals for all of them.

Wish is my worst one and she lives on constant pain meds and tomorrow it will be 8 weeks since her dental which is amazing.

How I tell is more to do with things like not coming over when they normally might, or not wanting to be touched when they normally enjoy it, or sometimes even excess cecatrophs can be an indication for some of them.

When those things happen I normally dose them up with Metacam and get them to the vets that day or the next day and he then agrees they need a dental and then they get booked in for a few days later.

Do your dental bunnies have bonded friends?

I wish I could tell earlier with Pipkin!
He's due a dental now and I could only tell because he's started drooling. No change in appetite at all :?

My bun needs monthly dentals, & is far from layed back.I'm more than fortunate that the vet has considered every possible way to reduce stress for admitted buns, & by knowing him got the anaesthetic down to a fine art. Taking him in just 1/2 before the GA is due & home as soon as no further monitoring is needed helps.

Because he has frequent dentals he soon learned that he feels better afterwards & they're not too bad. He takes it completely in his stride now.

I used to be able to tell with Santa because she used to slow down in her eating slightly, and also when grazing she would pull the grass differently. Instead of nomming it like normal, she would grab some in her mouth then yank her head backwards to break it off. I think you just have to watch carefully for signs. Santas teeth were horrid but with dietary management and dentals under GA where the teeth were burred back to just above the gum line they still only needed doing about every 6 months on average.

I do also agree with Jane that you cannot fully tell from a conscious examination. On one occasion Santa had a spur embedded sideways in her cheek. There is no way that my vet could have seen that on a conscious examination and because Santa was permanently on metacam for her snuffles, she showed no signs of discomfort at all.

Interestingly (well I think so anyway :lol I was talking with an exotics vet recently who reckons that some vets do far too many dentals, because they don't realise that buns teeth naturally curve to some small degree anyway, so they look in the mouth and think a dental is needed when it is not. Of course some buns like Thumps clearly have ongoing problems and need them regularly but I can't help but think that there are some buns who are done more often than they need...and I'm all for early intervention rather than leaving things too late.

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, even if pasteurella is isolated from your buns, this does not mean that you have a pasteurella outbreak. An infection caused by something else, such as overgrown tooth roots or a blocked tear duct, will of course cause bacteria naturally present (such as pasteurella) to overgrow. There is an important distinction between a pasteurella (or other disease) outbreak, and a recognition that the infection is secondary to something else.

Mine eat their hay slightly differently, they sort of crunch it rather than grind - its quite difficult to describe. I never leave it until they stop eating or show any noticable reduction in appetite and I keep a very close eye on their weight as slight weight loss is a sign they are eating less.

Santa said:

Interestingly (well I think so anyway :lol I was talking with an exotics vet recently who reckons that some vets do far too many dentals, because they don't realise that buns teeth naturally curve to some small degree anyway, so they look in the mouth and think a dental is needed when it is not. Of course some buns like Thumps clearly have ongoing problems and need them regularly but I can't help but think that there are some buns who are done more often than they need...and I'm all for early intervention rather than leaving things too late.

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My vet also says this and says that you would be hard pushed to find a bunny without any spurs or with completely perfect teeth.

My dental buns are generally all related to each other or at least two other rabbits here (with the exception of Wish).

With mine I know its been a successful dental when they act normal afterwards. I've only had two situations where that was not the case and both were very complex rabbits presenting with dental problems but something else was going on.

Sky-O said:

My vet also says this and says that you would be hard pushed to find a bunny without any spurs or with completely perfect teeth.

My dental buns are generally all related to each other or at least two other rabbits here (with the exception of Wish).

With mine I know its been a successful dental when they act normal afterwards. I've only had two situations where that was not the case and both were very complex rabbits presenting with dental problems but something else was going on.

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So does my vet.
We knew that my bun had tiny molar spurs for 3 years before he needed a dental. I have come to see his main issue as his megacolon, & needing to eat alot of fiber to maintain gut motility & a lot of low nutrient food to maintain body tissues. It was when he couldn't eat these large amounts he needed dentals, to maintain intake.
So he must have been able to keep them worn down sufficiently to maintain that level. However he does have a degree of root elongation which is not causing issues.

I have wondered whether the real problem in older buns is a degree of stiffening/arthritis at the TM joint such that they are unable to move the jaw through it's full range laterally = uneven tooth wear.
Perhaps holistic medicine has something to offer here?

spurs-- wait for drooling?

Vets have 'seen spurs' with otoscope during routine health checks-- in Rose's case for 5 years! We resisted dental work until recently, and both senior rabbits have been happy and well.

Bandit recently started to drool and had his rasped under GA. Other health problems followed this. (Ec, etc, we think from stress of op) He eats Ok now-- but not hay--- grass.

Both have more or less stopped eating hay, but still graze on grass or eat fresh grass cut with scissors, also vegetables and pellets--(Excel mature with ginseng glucosamine and cranberry.)

We have been very reluctant to have dental work and thought it might be kinder to PTS than subject them to ops. Bandit is 9, Rose 7.
Recently I think Rose may be not chewing that well -- vet check up for both rabbits is booked for Weds-- thinking in terms of last resort...But
We see from forum that many have frequent dental work. So should we re-think?

I am looking out for any drooling or stasis and know to act quickly with Recovery etc and vet visit.

Are spurs usual in senior rabbits, and do most people have them ground down under GA? Do they become recurrent problems after first treatment?

The post suggesting that arthritis in jaw may have a role to play in senior rabbit spurs is interesting. Anyone else use glucosamine ? Shebunkin

1 or 2 folk are usunf glucosamine on here.
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=228516

There's also a thread about using ground rosehips.
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=244185&highlight=rose+hips