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Badger is deteriorating. UD post 34

Sky-O

Wise Old Thumper
I'm desperate now and looking for any possible other options we have, so if anyone has any, please, please say.

Quick back history.

Nov 2009- Started to cough occasionally.

Dec 2009- Had dental. Coughing stopped.

Feb 2010- Started to cough again- had another dental and skull x-rays. Didn't stop the cough.

March 2010- Bad breathing, mouth breathing, and rumbling LRI. Losing lots of weight. Started nebulising which stopped the cough. Had two different courses of two different antibiotics. Still deteriorating.

April 2010- Went to Exotics specialist. She suggested various meds (Zithromax, Corvental, Metacam) and said he had Larygeal issues although could not say specifically what without an endoscopy, which I decided was more for our benefit than Badger's.

End of May 2010- When Badger came off the first round of Zithromax he deterioriated very quickly, with his nose pointed vertically up in the air, and mouth breathing. Took to vets and was given oxygen therapy. My vet also tried a steroid. She said if he didn't cope outside of the oxygen then we would have to let him go. The steroids made the world of difference. He also starts constant Zithromax here.

July 2010- Noticed he has bad breathing days so some days he starts to have two steroid tablets as opposed to one.

August 2010- Started to cough again after not coughing for about 4 months.

September 2010- Getting wet nose when eating or drinking. Stopped wanting to be handled again. Took him to vet for dental. Vet said his chest sounds excellent, no signs of infection but we are reluctant to remove him from the Zithromax because of what happened last time. In very good condition with regards to weight, coat condition. Had a dental the next day with no complications at all.

October 2010- Now, two weeks after his dental his drinking has increased significantly, he still occasionally coughs, and his nose is very wet (and as a result the inside of his front paws are matted). There are no signs of sneezing, or coloured discharge or any signs of infection. Its been suggested that the wet nose is only when he eats/drinks and is due to excess saliva and that his laryngeal issues prevent him from dealing with it properly.

Badger is still brigh, but is struggling and now I know the dental did not help him, I need to see if there are any other options.

One that was put forward previously was a period of time on a different antibiotic, but this seems a bit pointless when the infection is well controlled.

Currently he is on the following medications for his larygeal issues.

0.3ml Corvental, 1x day.
1ml Zithromalx, 1x day.
1mg Prednicare, 1-2x day.

Does anyone have any further ideas for what I can do to help my buddy?

ETA- Its now ot an option to take him in the car for an hour to see the Exotics Specialist because even taking him the ten minds to our vets terrifies me that I might lose him on the journey. I am seeing my vet with different bunnies on Tuesday and want to chat about Badger then to see what he has to say about the fact the dental has not helped. I just need to take some ideas along with me.
 
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Has he had a chest Xray, not only to check his lungs but also to check the size of his heart ?

I am wondering if he actually has heart failure and now consequent kidney issues
 
Yes, he had a chest x-ray. I'd forgotten that. He had that done before going to see the Exotics vet and I took them down.

He had the tooth root one done in December when he had his dental, and the chest x-ray done in March when he had another dental. I'd forgotten all about that, my bad, sorry.

This all kicked off when Donna's Pearl was having problems so I was pretty aware of heart problems at the time and did ask.

Heart problems were mentioned at one point because one of the vets we saw at my regular practice thought she could hear a heart murmur but was not sure. This was also something that the Exotics vet had a thorough listen to and check of.

Is it worth exploring that again? Are heart problems and renal afilure associated with each other?

He just wants to live so badly and I so want to help him do that.
 
Yes, he had a chest x-ray. I'd forgotten that. He had that done before going to see the Exotics vet and I took them down.

He had the tooth root one done in December when he had his dental, and the chest x-ray done in March when he had another dental. I'd forgotten all about that, my bad, sorry.

This all kicked off when Donna's Pearl was having problems so I was pretty aware of heart problems at the time and did ask.

Heart problems were mentioned at one point because one of the vets we saw at my regular practice thought she could hear a heart murmur but was not sure. This was also something that the Exotics vet had a thorough listen to and check of.

Is it worth exploring that again? Are heart problems and renal afilure associated with each other?

He just wants to live so badly and I so want to help him do that.

They can be yes. Congestive heart failure causes a back pressure and congestion which affects the other organs as if you were going 'backwards' on blood flow from the heart - rather like a traffic jam. This can cause renal insufficiency and consequently renal failure in bad cases. I don't know enough about rabbits to say whether or not this is definitely a possibility but I should think another chest Xray if he was up to it might atleast rule an enlarged heart in or out and consequently an adjustment in medication if necessary. Poor Badger :cry: I know how much he means to you and will keep you both in my thoughts xx

ETA is there fluid on his lungs also?
 
I really cant offer any help or ideas but sending good, healing vibes for you both.
 
Thanks rabbits mum :) and MPHF :)

And thanks PL.

As far as I know, when they gave him his dental, and as a result a very thorough going over, they found his chest sounded pretty clear. My vet was very pleased with how it sounded.

Another GA and a chest x-ray worries me greatly. I wish I had asked this befor ehe had his dental and then he could have had one while under but I was so sure that it was going to be his teeth because its the right timing and stuff tallied up as being his teeth.

In fairness, his breathing is not that bad right now. No mouth breathing. No nose in the air in any sense. Just fluid coming out his nose from somewhere.

What are meds for heart problems in rabbits? Or does that depend on the problem?

You're right, he does mean the world to me. Badger would leave one of the biggest holes in my life and in this house if anything happened to him. I need him to be 'ok'.
 
i know exactly how you feel about him....i hate when ours are ill and no matter what you do the problem is still there:cry: you just want them to be their normal, naughty, mischevious selves:roll::lol:
 
Thanks rabbits mum :) and MPHF :)

And thanks PL.

As far as I know, when they gave him his dental, and as a result a very thorough going over, they found his chest sounded pretty clear. My vet was very pleased with how it sounded.

Another GA and a chest x-ray worries me greatly. I wish I had asked this befor ehe had his dental and then he could have had one while under but I was so sure that it was going to be his teeth because its the right timing and stuff tallied up as being his teeth.

In fairness, his breathing is not that bad right now. No mouth breathing. No nose in the air in any sense. Just fluid coming out his nose from somewhere.

What are meds for heart problems in rabbits? Or does that depend on the problem?

You're right, he does mean the world to me. Badger would leave one of the biggest holes in my life and in this house if anything happened to him. I need him to be 'ok'.

He is OK in that he has you, and he knows you love him to pieces whatever happens :love:. Try to enjoy the time you have together, it must be so hard. It's very hard to say what the problem is, I understand the reservations about further GA's and car travel - can your vet communicate remotely with the exotics instead? Or does he really need a 2nd opinion to examine him in the flesh so to speak?

Heart meds will differ depending on the probs, I don't know specifically in rabbits but would expect for congestive heart issues a diuretic certainly, this would help the kidneys also if there was a problem as it reduces the load. There are other meds - not specifically for rabbits but am sure they can be prescribed off-license. Your vet/exotic vet will know what is best, and Jane and Donna both have personal experience in this field so may be able to advise you in this respect. I barely remember the human ones :oops:

Fluid from the URT would indicate inflammed respiratory mucosa - wherever the problem is I don't know, if his breathing is ok and his chest sounds clear then it probably is localised to the upper respiratory tract and it could be infective or dental related as you say and unrelated to his other problems apart from his weakened immune system. Maybe his tear ducts are blocked? How about some echinacea? Have you tried that in his water to give him a little boost? Or a few drops of Vit C/lemon juice like Judy does for Thumps? Might be an extra little help for him. I hope it all works out Sky-O - thinking of you both xx

ETA as far as I was aware matted front paws - 'carpel handkerchiefs' was a clinical sign of an URT infection - sneezing doesn't always need to be present. :?
 
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As soon as I read your first post about coughing, I also wondered about heart issues.
When we had Smokey, who had severe breathing problems he was on corvental and an inhaler- we used a steroid and a bronchiodilator at different times of the day- I believe they helped him although he was very prone to secondary bacterial infections and was then put onto antibiotics.
 
:) Thanks. Very much so.

Ok, talk me through some of those things. Echinacea, where do I buy it, what does it do? And it goes in the water?

Could add vit C/lemon juice. Or maybe a small amount of orange might be an option? Like an actual part of an orange segment, not juice. I didn't know she did that.

I also wonder if maybe giving Badger fresh greens that are diuretics may be an option? I know dandelion leaves are, but there must be more options as well. He has a stomach of steel so could probably take most things unless they are sugary.

Now, thinking back, recently I've upped his steroid and he mostly has two a day now. The vet did warn that could increase his drinking. I'm wondering if maybe that's what has done that? (that just sprung to mind, sorry). Maybe clutching at straws though.
 
As soon as I read your first post about coughing, I also wondered about heart issues.
When we had Smokey, who had severe breathing problems he was on corvental and an inhaler- we used a steroid and a bronchiodilator at different times of the day- I believe they helped him although he was very prone to secondary bacterial infections and was then put onto antibiotics.

Yes, what you describe there sounds very much like Badger.
 
ETA as far as I was aware matted front paws - 'carpel handkerchiefs' was a clinical sign of an URT infection - sneezing doesn't always need to be present. :?

Yes, this was what concerned me. But he has no symptoms of any URT issues apart from clear discharge when eating/drinking. Now as I understand it, the laryngeal area is what protects his lungs from food and ensures that his food goes the right way. Could it malfunction and make stuff go down up his tract and out his nose? Its not wet at any other time, and I think his matted paws come from grooming it then, when its wet.

The other point I forgot was that I'm not sure about his tear ducts being an issue. His eyes are absolutely fine and draining no problem. His skull x-ray in December showed 'perfect' tooth roots, and his spurs are generally only small (he's such a wuss). I know they could have changed since then though.
 
I've used echinecea and had good results with Merlin but not with Frankie. Obviously check with your vet as I used it when they weren't on any drugs. You can get it from Holland and Barrett I put a pippet full in the water. Sending lots of recovery vibes for Badger.
 
I've used echinecea and had good results with Merlin but not with Frankie. Obviously check with your vet as I used it when they weren't on any drugs. You can get it from Holland and Barrett I put a pippet full in the water. Sending lots of recovery vibes for Badger.

Thank you very much :)
 
Yes, this was what concerned me. But he has no symptoms of any URT issues apart from clear discharge when eating/drinking. Now as I understand it, the laryngeal area is what protects his lungs from food and ensures that his food goes the right way. Could it malfunction and make stuff go down up his tract and out his nose? Its not wet at any other time, and I think his matted paws come from grooming it then, when its wet.

The other point I forgot was that I'm not sure about his tear ducts being an issue. His eyes are absolutely fine and draining no problem. His skull x-ray in December showed 'perfect' tooth roots, and his spurs are generally only small (he's such a wuss). I know they could have changed since then though.

Okay, echinacea is a herbal extract that you can buy in almost any big supermarket in the pharmacy section/healthcare section or holland and barrett and other health food stores. The best ones to get are the pure tinctures in ethanol with nothing else added - some put all sorts in. I have both Duchy and Bioforce - Echinaforce ones here - both pure echinacea extract in a high concentration in ethanol as the carrier only.
I use a child's dose in a bowl of water (standard bunny bowl) so this is 10 drops. Some people use more but I don't want to over do it. It is thought efficacy wanes as bun/human gets used to it so the recommended usage is 5 days on and then 2 days off, or use for a couple of weeks and then have a break before starting again. Both Maizey, Amy104 on here and others have used this extract with good results I believe. Me included :)

I don't know how much Vit C Judy adds - i'm sure she would gratefully help if you PM'd her for advice. I think she uses lemon juice but can't see why some orange would hurt at all. Mine love clementine segments as a treat at Xmas! :)

Steroids do have quite a significant effect on rabbits and their immunity and other organs, more so than humans, so there could be steroid complications involved here :? I understand that for Badger this is an important medicine however.

As far as i'm aware the naso and oropharynxes in rabbits are much steeper inclined and more elongated than ours and therefore regurgitating food backwards into the post-nasal pharyngeal space is virtually impossible - but don't quote me on that! This was something a vet at my practice discussed with me when I thought Poppy had aspirated on saliva (which she did). I think rabbit anatomy makes this more difficult. But neurological control disruption of the swallowing reflex or obstruction? I suppose is a possibility? I'm clutching at straws here in my knowledge - I think Judy could explain this much better.

Could the weepy nose if the fluid is clear be an acute allergy of some sort? Seems too trivial doesn't it for his symptoms. It does sound like exotic help is needed here greatly. So sorry if I have confused you with my limited and probably confused knowledge :oops: x
 
Just as an aside- inhaled steriods have less of an effect on immunity that oral steroids, something I read when researching Smokey's illness- it applies to humans too. We bought an aerocat inhaler to use, it cost about £60 I think but it made it so much easier to give him his meds.

http://www.breatheazy.co.uk/aerokat-product-information.htm

Oh I agree :) Didn't realise Badger was having inhaled steroids - thought they were being injected, my mistake.
 
Oh I agree :) Didn't realise Badger was having inhaled steroids - thought they were being injected, my mistake.

I think they are in tablet form, I just thought it might help if Sky-o was aware that the inhalered ones had less side effects- assuming they were to work.
 
Thank you guys very, very much. I read this all earlier and needed to digest it.

Badger is on a prednicare, 1mg tablet. I knew injections were an option, but I didn't know about an inhaler. How do you get a bunny to use an inhaler effectively?

Thank you very much for that link. I have now looked and realised how you get a rabbit to inhale. Badger did not tolerate the nebuliser mask. It literally panicked him and we then had mouth breathing (this was before he got onto this new combo of meds). I'm not sure that he would take an inhaler mask, or if the risks would be too great.

PL, thank you for your explanation and suggestion for the echinacea (which I'm impressed I have now learnt to spell :lol:) and also the explanation of his tract tubes.

Potentially, the runny nose could be an allergy. We have this years second cut hay in and my nose dislikes it greatly, as does my mum's. Howeber Sky, who appears to struggle with allergies, is breathing a lot better now (although potentially they could be allergic to different things obviously).

I will drop Judy a PM, but not right now, she has enough going on. Thank you for that suggest though.

This is such a headache. There is no way that taking him back to the exotics vet is an option anymore. There is a vet who has started exotics training this September at our surgery and she has been brill wiht Bagder all the way through, I just wish she was further along in her training now than she is.

I want to make him ok, or better than he is now, but I'm so scared that trying things to make him better may make him worse. Catch 22. If I leave him as he is he will get worse. How am I supposed to weigh that up. So I stay on something that is working relatively well, but he is sliding on, or risk changing stuff or doing stuff that could deteriorate him faster. Having seen how quickly he slid when he came off the Zithromax that's such a scary prospect.
 
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