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Coineanach
03-10-2010, 12:00 PM
Despite all the attention, Oidhche-Velvet's hocks are getting worse. :( A sore patch has appeared on the other foot and they've started bleeding again. We have fleece down, although she does insist on hopping through to the carpet in the bedroom. We're finishing the baytril, using sudocream as a barrier and are keeping her weight down and nails short, and they're GETTING WORSE.

I'm so frustrated, it must be so painful for the poor love to have bleeding feet. :cry: But I don't know what else I can do. :(

Sky-O
03-10-2010, 12:45 PM
You're not doing anything wrong. This is a 'fault' of the breed, and those to blame are those who created a breed who are prone to this problem. All you are doing is trying your best, which is all anyone can do. Sometimes the best prevention efforts are not enough.

Can you talk us through exactly what you have done and tried?

Jane is the mine of all knowledge about rexes so she may bea good person to talk to. I also think that she has said that really deep hay is what she has found works the best for flooring.

antigone
03-10-2010, 01:06 PM
*Hugs*
You're not doing anything wrong. We had the same problem with our Velvet.:(
I agree that Jane is the best person to turn to for advice.

Coineanach
03-10-2010, 01:07 PM
You're not doing anything wrong. This is a 'fault' of the breed, and those to blame are those who created a breed who are prone to this problem. All you are doing is trying your best, which is all anyone can do. Sometimes the best prevention efforts are not enough.

Can you talk us through exactly what you have done and tried?

Jane is the mine of all knowledge about rexes so she may bea good person to talk to. I also think that she has said that really deep hay is what she has found works the best for flooring.

I could do with giving them a good kick up the backside :( My poor girlie.

We keep her nails cut short and keep an eye on her weight, she's 3.5kg just now and the vet said that's pretty ideal.

We have padded lino on the floor with carpets on top and fleece on top of that. She's in the kitchen and the flat is rented so there's a limit to what we can do. She has a hidey hole under the desk with a fleecy dog-bed in which she loves to lie in.

We spotted a raw patch on a hock when cutting her nails, made a vet appointment, by the time we got to the vets two days later the wound was infected and filled with pus. She's been treated with baytril and fuciderm, with metacam as needed. After little improvement we went back and were told to try sudocream as a barrier. We haven't been bandaging as she still has decent fur coverage around the hock.

Vet basically said it was just a matter of time, but it doesn't make me feel any less rotten :( She didn't come here with dodgy hocks did she? It started with the back right foot, spread to the front left, and has now started on the back right too, I think because she's been favouring that one. She obviously has some pain as I catch her shifting from foot to foot.

I was hoping Jane might pop along. I don't know what I can do about hay as it's not really feasible for my kitchen to be covered in a deep layer of hay, and there is quite honestly nowhere else to put her, our flat only has three rooms.

Sky-O
03-10-2010, 01:15 PM
In the US they seem to find that something called 'Bag Balm' can work well. Maybe that's worth looking into to see if you can get some shipped across?

Coineanach
03-10-2010, 01:19 PM
In the US they seem to find that something called 'Bag Balm' can work well. Maybe that's worth looking into to see if you can get some shipped across?

I will have a look, thanks :wave:

antigone
03-10-2010, 04:03 PM
They sell bag balm at Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bag-Balm-With-Vitamin-E/dp/B0029B9B4E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=drugstore&qid=1286118067&sr=8-1 :wave:

honeybunny
03-10-2010, 04:09 PM
If her hocks are that bad I would suggest confining her to a space filled with soft hay..deep bed her on it for a few weeks..changing it often so she isn't on urine soaked bits
This is how we have cured sore hocks here before..along with anti biotics to fight infection and barrier cream of course

bunnymadhouse
03-10-2010, 06:20 PM
oh poor velvet ... wish i had more advice :(

Coineanach
04-10-2010, 10:52 PM
Thanks for your replies. I just don't know where I would put a thick layer of hay :(

Bumping up for Jane.

Elena
05-10-2010, 11:38 AM
Can you cover the carpet? We found the carpet the main culprit. As soon as we covered it with some softer rugs they improved greatly. And then when we put lino down they improved even more. The rough carpet was rubbing away at the delicate fur and exposing the skin underneath. It was happening with three of my four. The only one with who it didn't was Smudge cause his fur is very thick.

raine
05-10-2010, 12:12 PM
Some of the US articles, are talking about applying New Skin

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/sorehocks.shtml
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sorehocks.html
http://www.vet2pet.co.uk/pethealth/rabbithealth/sorehocks_rabbit.asp

Angie65
05-10-2010, 12:23 PM
Jaime the conti, had serious bleeding hocks when he was here. Took ages before they cleared up, & they got worse before they got better

The first time I noticed an improvement was after he'd been living on a double duvet for a week. He had rubber matting, newspaper, duvet, then hay. And one week they stayed scabbed long enough to heal:D

Obviously he had to be restricted to a room where the duvet fit - & I had to keep replacing cos he was an unneutered male (Asda did a 10 one). His garden time was restricted area, when the grass was dry & his hocks bandaged

JLG
05-10-2010, 12:35 PM
I'm sorry i can't offer any suggestions but you do have my sympathy :( - I have got 2 rexes but they are outdoor buns and they are either on grass (daytime) or a 3 inch layer of megazorb & soft hay in their hutch and I'm still paranoid.
From what i've read in other threads it seems to be carpets that are often the problem and other soft surfaces are also still abrasive - would she be ok on lino? If not, then maybe think about confinement so you can put a thick layer of hay doww.
Sorry I can't help, hope she starts improving soon, you must be so worried

Elena
05-10-2010, 01:07 PM
Jaime the conti, had serious bleeding hocks when he was here. Took ages before they cleared up, & they got worse before they got better

The first time I noticed an improvement was after he'd been living on a double duvet for a week. He had rubber matting, newspaper, duvet, then hay. And one week they stayed scabbed long enough to heal:D

Obviously he had to be restricted to a room where the duvet fit - & I had to keep replacing cos he was an unneutered male (Asda did a 10 one). His garden time was restricted area, when the grass was dry & his hocks bandaged

We also found a duvet helped. Vetbed with a sheet on top is also good. Vetbed on it's own still seems a bit abrasive. You want spongy so the nails sink in but with a thin covering on top like a sheet or duvet cover.

Coineanach
05-10-2010, 01:10 PM
Can you cover the carpet? We found the carpet the main culprit. As soon as we covered it with some softer rugs they improved greatly. And then when we put lino down they improved even more. The rough carpet was rubbing away at the delicate fur and exposing the skin underneath. It was happening with three of my four. The only one with who it didn't was Smudge cause his fur is very thick.

We had lino originally - it's a funny kind of lino, very thick and spongy underfoot. It was on this that the hock issues started, so we put carpet down and fleece on top of that, thinking that the extra padding might help. It hasn't. Would I be better taking all that up and just leaving her with the lino? We still have carpet in the other rooms but I can confine her to the kitchen in the meantime if it'll help.

Coineanach
05-10-2010, 01:11 PM
Some of the US articles, are talking about applying New Skin

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/sorehocks.shtml
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sorehocks.html
http://www.vet2pet.co.uk/pethealth/rabbithealth/sorehocks_rabbit.asp

Thanks, I'll have a good read. :wave:

Elena
05-10-2010, 01:14 PM
We had lino originally - it's a funny kind of lino, very thick and spongy underfoot. It was on this that the hock issues started, so we put carpet down and fleece on top of that, thinking that the extra padding might help. It hasn't. Would I be better taking all that up and just leaving her with the lino? We still have carpet in the other rooms but I can confine her to the kitchen in the meantime if it'll help.

Personally if it was me I'd pull the carpet up and put duvets all over instead of the carpet. The problem with carpet, though obviously this depends how thick the pile is, is it doesn't have any give in for their nails and in addition, it can be a bit rough.

The absolute best thing is hay but I know that that just isn't usually practical indoors.

Coineanach
05-10-2010, 01:14 PM
The first time I noticed an improvement was after he'd been living on a double duvet for a week. He had rubber matting, newspaper, duvet, then hay. And one week they stayed scabbed long enough to heal:D

Obviously he had to be restricted to a room where the duvet fit - & I had to keep replacing cos he was an unneutered male (Asda did a 10 one). His garden time was restricted area, when the grass was dry & his hocks bandaged

I can see what we can do with a duvet, luckily we wouldn't have the issues of spray everywhere :shock: Madam has the same problem, they scab over then she knocks the scabs off putting us back to square one. Atm we're just waiting for them to callous to some extent. She's a big fan of jumping on and off things which is where I think she's knocking the scabs off.

Coineanach
05-10-2010, 01:15 PM
I'm sorry i can't offer any suggestions but you do have my sympathy :( - I have got 2 rexes but they are outdoor buns and they are either on grass (daytime) or a 3 inch layer of megazorb & soft hay in their hutch and I'm still paranoid.
From what i've read in other threads it seems to be carpets that are often the problem and other soft surfaces are also still abrasive - would she be ok on lino? If not, then maybe think about confinement so you can put a thick layer of hay doww.
Sorry I can't help, hope she starts improving soon, you must be so worried

Thank you for your thoughts :wave:

Elena
05-10-2010, 01:16 PM
Just wanted to say that as mine aren't rexes I haven't had so much of a problem with this so all my advice is based on my experience of the beginnings of sore hocks rather than very bad ones.

Jack's-Jane is the best one for advice regarding rexes.

Coineanach
05-10-2010, 01:20 PM
We also found a duvet helped. Vetbed with a sheet on top is also good. Vetbed on it's own still seems a bit abrasive. You want spongy so the nails sink in but with a thin covering on top like a sheet or duvet cover.

I did wonder about vetbed but thought it looked rather rough, I've never had it so don't know. I didn't think of covering it with a sheet. What about covering it with fleece, would that do?

Coineanach
05-10-2010, 01:22 PM
Just wanted to say that as mine aren't rexes I haven't had so much of a problem with this so all my advice is based on my experience of the beginnings of sore hocks rather than very bad ones.

Jack's-Jane is the best one for advice regarding rexes.

Hers aren't awful at the moment but they are continuously bleeding and I'd rather catch them before they get any worse. Her heels have calloused over nicely but the middle of the foot is where the problem is.

I was waiting for Jane to pop along :)

Coineanach
05-10-2010, 01:30 PM
Personally if it was me I'd pull the carpet up and put duvets all over instead of the carpet. The problem with carpet, though obviously this depends how thick the pile is, is it doesn't have any give in for their nails and in addition, it can be a bit rough.

The absolute best thing is hay but I know that that just isn't usually practical indoors.

It's just carpet mats so not a problem to take up. It's not a particularly thick pile, we just thought with that and the fleece on top it would make the floor have a bit more 'give'. I'll take it up.

If she was anywhere but the kitchen I wouldn't mind putting hay down but with spill and things it's just not practical. There's nowhere else to put her really - our bathroom is minuscule and she'd go stir-crazy, and the bedroom and hall are carpet. :(

prettylupin
05-10-2010, 02:47 PM
I fostered a Belgian Hare with extremely bad sore hocks running the length of each feet both front and back, he had no fur left on the soles at all and large angry red callouses as well as very inflammed and thickened skin.

Being indoors hay was not practical at all for us either and we used an entire floor covering of veterinary bedding covered with fleeces with lots of towels underneath the vet bed for extra absorbency and padding as his feet were so bad he was unable to squat to pee in a tray to start with and had trouble even sitting or standing on his feet. His entire pen was this surface. We even had to use cut off bits of vet bed on top of the megazorb in his litter tray as he was unable to stand on even megazorb comfortably.

For exercise he had free range time on our lawn supervised and a pen for when we were out, soft grass as long as not soaking is an ideal substrate for exercise and I personally don't agree with restricting space for a sore hock bun. In my opinion this means that bun will spend more time sitting on his hocks doing nothing and less time moving about and keeping the blood and vital WBC to heal the skin flowing to the extremities. Exercise is crucial IMO. I would also advocate the ongoing use of low dose NSAID to reduce inflammation and thus skin thickening which then promotes normal skin and fur regrowth. Swollen and fibrosed skin tissue from chronic inflammation will not grow new fur. We didn't apply anything to the sores/callouses, again IMO this just weakens the skin and makes it more prone to fracture. If hocks are bleeding then creams can be applied but the foot MUST be bandaged to prevent the wounds becoming infected and to protect the wound from weight bearing. This is all just my, very limited admittedly, personal experience. :):wave:

Coineanach
08-10-2010, 05:25 PM
Thank you PL. I did wonder about her litter tray but she's still using it fine, I use wooden compressed pellets with a big chunk of hay on top, she doesn't seem to be having any problems with it but they're so good at hiding it.

She still enjoys having her run about, she doesn't really sit still but because she's in the kitchen she's limited as to how far she can go. It is a decent sized kitchen though, probably about 12ft long, guessing here as I know you could fit two of me end-to-end in. I'm wary about taking her outside as it's always wet up here, I take the washing out in my bare feet to test and it hasn't yet dried up despite having a couple of dry days.

She's still on the metacam and we've stopped the cream unless the foot is actually bleeding, but weren't told to bandage it as the cream creates a barrier. I did wonder about this because surely she'll just rub it all off when running about? Her course of Baytril is up (thank goodness, that was a nightmare) and the pus is gone from the bad foot, they just look raw and sometimes bleed.

I'll see what I can do about getting vetbed as that sounds worth a try.

prettylupin
08-10-2010, 05:35 PM
Thank you PL. I did wonder about her litter tray but she's still using it fine, I use wooden compressed pellets with a big chunk of hay on top, she doesn't seem to be having any problems with it but they're so good at hiding it.

She still enjoys having her run about, she doesn't really sit still but because she's in the kitchen she's limited as to how far she can go. It is a decent sized kitchen though, probably about 12ft long, guessing here as I know you could fit two of me end-to-end in. I'm wary about taking her outside as it's always wet up here, I take the washing out in my bare feet to test and it hasn't yet dried up despite having a couple of dry days.

She's still on the metacam and we've stopped the cream unless the foot is actually bleeding, but weren't told to bandage it as the cream creates a barrier. I did wonder about this because surely she'll just rub it all off when running about? Her course of Baytril is up (thank goodness, that was a nightmare) and the pus is gone from the bad foot, they just look raw and sometimes bleed.

I'll see what I can do about getting vetbed as that sounds worth a try.

To be honest I took Teshie out for a run on the lawn even when it was damp. Our garden faces North and he stayed with us until November. I just made sure that when he came in I either dried his feet gently or just got him to hop about on a towel for a few minutes to dry them. As long as they get dry I don't see it as a problem and the benefits of exercise on soft ground we felt were worth it. They don't call them Belgian Hare's for nothing! He was like a Greyhound once he got going! :shock::lol:

His new owner still gets him out in the garden for exercise. His hocks have always been 'managed' rather than fully cured - sadly this is often the way. I do know that stress can very much exacerbate them - certainly in terms of self mutilating them. When Teshie is upset he would and apparently still does chew his feet. They either hurt when they are bad or itch as they heal - poor buns can't win can they.

thumps_
08-10-2010, 06:49 PM
:wave: I typed "Lady Lydia's sore hocks" (one of Jane's rexes) into "search threads", & several very useful threads came up.
Maizey used colloidial silver on one of her Conti's to control infection when the skin was broken.
JJ used colloidial silver & a type of savlon gel for Lady Lydia.

As Sky-O says. YOU aren't doing ANYTHING wrong. Some Rex buns have no tough guard hairs on their feet, & the softer fur can't withstand the wear & tear. It's a breed issue.

prettylupin
08-10-2010, 07:50 PM
:wave: I typed "Lady Lydia's sore hocks" (one of Jane's rexes) into "search threads", & several very useful threads came up.
Maizey used colloidial silver on one of her Conti's to control infection when the skin was broken.
JJ used colloidial silver & a type of savlon gel for Lady Lydia.

As Sky-O says. YOU aren't doing ANYTHING wrong. Some Rex buns have no tough guard hairs on their feet, & the softer fur can't withstand the wear & tear. It's a breed issue.

Neither do Belgian Hares :wave:

The Savlon gel is called Savlon Advanced Gel. I have used it on Nino's hock callouses as an experiment in the past and found it really did do something quite quickly. Again, I wouldn't apply without bandaging personally.