How soon after a bad bout of bloat

before poos will return to normal?

Little Floppy had bad bloat on Tuesday which took him about 36 hours to get back to his normal eating (he was eating greens and hay during this time).

He is still producing too many caecotrophs and wondered how long this would normally go on for? He is fine apart from this.

I would have expected the poops to be normal by now. How well is he eating ordinary hay?

The gut can take a long time to return to normal.

Do you know what caused the gas? If not, there might be something ongoing that is causing problems, not just the guts recovery.

Thanks for answering. He's eating hay fine, and having his normal wild greens and pellets.

I don't know what caused the gas, although the vet thinks it could have been the xeno 450 that he was given the day before. There has been nothing else different for him.

He is doing fine, grooming himself, eating, drinking and weeing fine, playing and running around. It is just he is having too many caecotrophs, usually in the late afternoon after his nap. Everything else is fine.

:wave: Hi. As Sky -O rightly says it takes about 2 weeks for the bacteria in the caecum to restabilise after stasis/bloat, but there's usually nothing to see wrong with the poops.
I also agree very strongly that it is important for a good vet to exclude any underlying causes of bloat/stasis - basically dental issues & disease anywhere!!

I can see 2 potential reasons why he should be leaving his caecs.
a) The bacteria still aren't right & making them smell wrong, so he won't eat them. (My nose is well tuned to my buns normal smell now, but buns are way more sensitive than us!)
b) The combination of green oats hay & veg is a bit "rich in nutrient".

If he's eating ordinary hay well, I'd give him hay only for a couple of days, perhaps adding a few bramble leaves, & see if this sorts it out for him, then reintroduce veg slowly.
Some members of the cabbage family - brassicas are notorious for causing bloat in some buns.

ETA The principalis that the high fiber is a natural gut stimulant - get the caecum to empty fully & flush out the bacteria. the less concentrated nutrient will discourage the wrong bacteria so we starve 'em out too.

I have been giving him some green oats hay the past couple of days , so will cut that out just now and give him normal hay instead.

The greens he has been having are apple leaves, hazel leaves, bramble leaves, basil, parsley, coriander and the occasional dandelion and grass. He has eaten more of them than usual, so maybe that has upset his tummy the past couple of days. He doesn't get shop bought veg as he has always had a funny tummy and was prone to extra caecs. Everything had been fine for a while until his bloat last week.

His teeth have been examined and the ones the vet could see are fine. He is only 6 months old and has always eaten plenty hay.

weedug said:

I have been giving him some green oats hay the past couple of days , so will cut that out just now and give him normal hay instead.

The greens he has been having are apple leaves, hazel leaves, bramble leaves, basil, parsley, coriander and the occasional dandelion and grass. He has eaten more of them than usual, so maybe that has upset his tummy the past couple of days. He doesn't get shop bought veg as he has always had a funny tummy and was prone to extra caecs. Everything had been fine for a while until his bloat last week.

His teeth have been examined and the ones the vet could see are fine. He is only 6 months old and has always eaten plenty hay.

Click to expand...

Did you syringe feed during the bloat episode? I find recovery feeds/critical care always cause soft poops/excess caecs with my two.

No I was told to try everything rather than syringe feed him, and to only do it if he absolutely would eat nothing else.

I do know that his pellets need changing though as they aren't high fibre. I've been meaning to do it for ages but have been trying him on different plants while they have been available.

I don't know how long to wait now until I start the change over.

Thanks for coming to the rescue PL. You've sadly had more experience of bloat than most of us. I'm sure you can advise better.

Floppy looks to me to be on a good high fiber diet for a bun with a delicate tummy.

I have to dash right now but I agree with Thumps and Sky-O that the pain required to cause bloat can sometimes be quite substantial... I would be looking for an underlying cause first and foremost.

Will reply again tomorrow - sorry have to dash! x

Thank you so much for helping out

Floppy has a luxating patella. The only other cause I can think of is that he was at the vet the day before his bloat and she was examining his leg like she does every time he goes. He seemed ok straight afterwards though.

I am convinced though that the visit to the vet and the bloat are somehow linked.

I have meloxidyl for him if he needs it for his leg. Should he have Zantac or anything else with it? Most days it doesn't seem to bother him.

Should I use dried plants for him throughout winter? I would prefer not to feed too many shop bought veggies as when he had them in the past they always upset his tummy with too many caecs.

Nino's recurrent bloat episodes were found to be caused by joint pain - he has early onset OA. He masks the pain so well that there is very little change in his gait or movement, if at all, and yet the pain was so substantial it would cause a bloat episode almost every weekend at one point back in the New Year.

I am suspicious that Floppy's luxating patella is causing ongoing low-grade joint and/or soft tissue/muscular inflammation/pain which 'could' be behind the bloat episodes he is experiencing, especially if it ties in after an examination where the knee would have been manipulated and potentially flared it up. Stress of course from a vet visit may be contributory. It may also be on the days that you feel he is not bothered by it - that he still is, but just isn't showing it?
I wonder how your vet would feel about Floppy being on DAILY low maintenance meloxidyl as Nino is to control any chronic pain from his injury?

Alternatively if you think it is linked to the vet visit you could use the meloxidyl on these days when you get home, and maybe even some gut motility medication like zantac the day before you travel to the vet and for several days after you get back perhaps, or just a one-off dose to keep his tummy ticking over. If we are travelling Nino and I am concerned about his tummy in any way, a mild ileus or a long journey or a stressful one, then he will have metclopramide and zantac just before we go as a prophylactic as a one-off dose.

I hope you can get to the bottom of Floppy's bloat. Do remember that ileus is very persistent (2 weeks to get the gut nerves back up to speed). Zantac can be used as an H2 receptor agonist to protect the tummy against Meloxidyl but as I understand it rabbit stomach acidity is much higher than ours and low doses shouldn't be an issue - but there's no harm giving it if your vet agrees - for this reason. I should think it's gut motility action would be v. helpful for Floppy anyway on these occasions.
I also use infacol successfully when Nino bloats, as well as a hot water bottle and tummy rubs - he bloats very quickly and quite extremely for a little rabbit with no obstruction so I tend to throw everything at it as early as possible to bring him through it. Every bun is different when they bloat. :wave:

ETA one thing we have discovered is that if there is background chronic pain anyway, then bun's pain threshold seems to be lowered overall - and therefore a bloat episode will be perhaps 'more' painful for this rabbit than an otherwise healthy rabbit. This was evident with Nino who would be heavily bloated and almost moribund - floppy and unresposnsive when presented at the emergency vets within the hour - and I mean an hour from running around hopping/munching normally etc to being a limp rabbit in extreme pain. Xrays revealed very little gas in his tummy and no obstruction - his pain threshold because of his joint pain was very low indeed. :wave:

:wave: Thank you the extra information is really helpful.
I also found this problem with shop veg with Thumps, & have fed him a diet similar to Floppy for 4 years. When they eat a lot of tree leaves we just have to keep an eye on their weight.

Alot of forum members had gut issues with shop veg last winter. PL noticed that some supermarkets were worse than others, & found out that the problem ones wash their veg in highly chlorinated water to preserve them. We wondered whether this was adversely affecting the caecal bacteria.

My bun has always been OK with critical care feeds, & gets one every month with his dental. Buns are all different. (He's got a gut condition similar to megacolon) Yes, a change in feed can make the caecs smell different so the bun rejects them until he gets used to them. This is no big issue except it will cloud the current situation.

Whether a bun gets bloat or the gut gradually stops, depends mainly on the type of bacterial overgrowth.
Over the years, I've found that alot of factors in short succession will start the slow down process, & then 1 big one will cause it to flare up. This seems quite common. We can't control them all, but can be more alert, & sometmes preempt issues.

Moulting, sudden weather changes, & anxiety are factors for Thumps.

I can't see how you can reduce the nutrient & increase the fiber more than you are.
Yes, I dry & feed the leaves over winter.
Bramble leaves/raspberry leaves are the best for these issues.

How often does Floppy get bloat?
How often does he get problems with is caecs? Are they normal - bunch of tiny "grapes"? or are they unformed/toothpaste consistency, may be offensive?
We don't want to overmedicate our buns. We need to get to the fundamental problem - possibly patellar pain in Floppy's case, & by keepig that under control we'll keep his gut happy.

PL is great onjoint/bloat issues.

thumps_ said:

We don't want to overmedicate our buns. We need to get to the fundamental problem - possibly patellar pain in Floppy's case, & by keepig that under control we'll keep his gut happy.

Click to expand...

I agree with this, even though I know my post sounded rather the opposite. My very rabbit savy vet who is sadly only in the UK twice a year, is VERY much of the same opinion and hates medicating rabbits unless clinically necessary.
Perhaps you could do a pain trial? This is what we did with Nino to start with - 3 months meloxidyl and then see how many bloat episodes he got - he got none, so can pretty safely assume his bloat was pain related, and as the Xrays revealed his hip and knee joints in such a sorry state - my SA vet described them as clinically very poor - but what you see on Xray and what bunny demonstrates in real life can be two very different things! Nino's hips and knee joints aren't good at all, remodelling, osteophytes - you name it he's got it, and yet he's binkying and flying around the garden like normal!

I know a luxating patella is quite different but the same principle on hiding the pain may apply, as would hopefully adequate pain control - even if you just did a trial period to rule it out? :wave:

:wave: Thank you so much PL and Thumps. I will try to answer some of your questions.

My vet is quite happy for Floppy to be given meloxidyl as I think he needs it, and suggested a dose of 0.5ml (Floppy weighs almost 1.5kg now). She didn't think it would affect his tummy, but would have an affect on his liver. They have left it up to me how often he is given it and to give me prescriptions as and when I need them.

This is Floppy's first bloat , but he has had excess caecs on and off since I got him back in June. He used to get them daily for almost 2 months, then stopped getting any for about 6 weeks, and is now back to getting them again after his bloat. They are not smelly, they are grapes, but in a blob like toothpaste. Most of his poos are fine. I had thought his tummy would go back to how it was before the bloat, but instead it is back to how it was months ago, although the number of caecs are decreasing now.

He gets no shop bought veg and no fruit. His supper is grass or various leaves that we have collected for him. He was eating loads of raspberry when he was coming out his bloat. If he is having meloxidyl he is allowed a little carrot (not the best for him I know). He gets so stressed with the syringe that I figure it might be better to have the carrot with the medicine on it.

I know his pellets need changing as his current ones are only 19% fibre. He is only on it because after trying a few, it was the one that caused the least problems for his tummy. I want to change to Bunny Basics or A&P, but am worried about upsetting his tummy just now.

He had no outside symptoms of the bloat. His tummy looked fine and he wasn't shifting position. He just suddenly appeared very unwell and wasn't moving around or eating.

The vet didn't recommend an op on his leg at this point, given his age as they said they would need to redo it when he was older. The problem with doing the op is that there is a very high chance that his leg bones would shatter, so he would be in a worse position than he is just now.

I think after any vet visits in the future he will need a decent dose of meloxidyl and maybe some zantac.

Floppy is having a serious moult just now, so don't know if that contributed. He is inside during the night, but he was going out to play during the day. Since he has been ill, he has been playing inside since it has been so cold out. To be honest I think I seems to enjoy inside more. He seems much more relaxed.

:wave: Hi Weedug. I've been mulling over Floppy today, trying to understand what's been going on.

It doesn't quite sound like a classical bloat to me. More like the gut has slowed down a bit - several factors together, & possibly found it difficult to shift some fur through the gut & slowed it down a lot but not actually caused a blockage like we've had recently.

Yes, meloxidyl is fine on the tummy in buns.

Thinking out loud - Floppy has the patellar issues - pain at times - tends to slow the gut a bit - possibly gives some degree of dysbiosis in the caecum, but now usually copes OK.
On top of that is the heavy moult - a big stress factor - the gut slows down quite a lot with a heavy moult, but he's coping fine.
Visit to vet - short, but another stress factor - starts to tip the balance.
Grooms & eats a fair bit of fur - really puts the gut under strain with more pain & as it's tough going to to get it through, but it does get through = the "bloat" episode while it's in there. We'd call that a "subacute obstruction" I suppose.

All the gut slow down reduces caecal emptying so you get the overgrowth of micro organisms - Floppy smells the difference & won't eat them.

Sometimes the abnormal caecal micro organisms can make toxins which slow the gut down further.

I'd be inclined to do all you can to help Floppy keep as much fur out of his stomach as possible - grooming as much as he'll take, stroking with a damp hand/glove on can get alot out. I have to gently tease it out of Thumps between 2 fingers when he 's moulting heavily.

I think I'd have him on regular meloxidyl to make sure the pain is controled while he's moulting heavily.
I think I'd also discuss with the vet whether improving caecal emptying with Zantac for say 5 days - get that dysbiosis under control while he's moulting would help.

Does that make any sense to you?
ETA I'm basically saying that Floppy copes fine most of the time but we've got to watch out for moulting.

That all makes sense. Thank you for spending so much time thinking about him.

I hadn't thought of using a glove to groom him. I think that would work much better than the brush.

I'll give him regular pain relief for just now. Would fibreplex be of any use to him just now?

How soon do you think I should start to change his pellets?

Alot of people use fiberplex successfully.
It mainly works by increasing the fiber content of the diet & hence stimulating lower bowel emptying.
He's so much fiber in his diet I'd be surprised if any more would make much difference, unlike the average situation.
You've got that to perfection for a tummy bun :thumb:

There is the probiotic in there which may well help, but none are formulated specifically for rabbits.
It's quite difficult to squeeze out of the syringe & several buns don't like it. I think it's important not to (di)stress him more than we can help.

We're left with the pain factor & the dysbiosis factor that we can do something about.

I'm very biased because my bun's caecum has stopped working now - all these years the best way to get him out of dysbiosis has been to stimulate caecal turnover with Zantac. [I know it's used to reduce stomach acidity in humans but in buns we use a side effect of stimulating motility in the lower gut & caecum.]

I recently posted 2 links for someone else. "Behind" the diagram of bunny insides there's quite an academic paper about the workings of the bunny gut. The 2nd. is a readable article on dysbiosis.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur...1t:429,r:9,s:0
http://www.fuzzylop.com/3_Mystery_of_rabbit_poop.htm

Quite agree that I don't want Floppy to be stressed with anything just now unless absolutely necessary.

I couldn't get the first link to work, but the second was very helpful, thank you.

I'm glad that his diet seems to be OK for his tummy. I think I will need to go on massive foraging sessions before it is too late, as he has eaten a lot of the winter supplies already . and I really don't want to give him shop veggies.

I've never had a bun with a delicate tummy before so I hope that I do the right thing for him.

You're doing great.
If you hadn't got him on such a good diet, & taken such care of him, he could have got into a much worse situation. So all credit to you.

You'll find that the tummy bunny mummies stick together on here, because it's a real worry, & it can be so difficult to get to the bottom of the problem.
With ongoing issues like joint pain, dentals, gut disease - (not poor diet) we can't stop it completely, but we can peg away at it & get good control.

The usual posters have all got quite a lot on our plates at the mo. & not spending as much time on the forum as usual.

The paper is tough going unless you know the medical terms. I'll try again!
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...tz5DA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0
Hope this works better. - Good luck.
ETA you have to close the diagram to see the paper.