Is anyone online? Advice for Starbuck pls U/D Back from vets Post 11

If anyone is online please can you give me your advice.

I posted a short message on a thread about moulting about Starbuck last night: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=246414

He didnt eat much yesterday but did do some poos. He didnt move much yesterday and spent most of the time in the corner and didnt eat very much.

The difficult thing is that this is not unusual for Starbuck who can be a bit slow to do anything and fussy with his food at the best of times.

He has had a very heavy moult and although I have a furminator and we have tried furminating as much as we can, he has been very stressed out by it and so we havent been able to groom him as much as we would have liked.

Last night I was quite worried so read about hairballs and stasis and tried to tempt him with treats. Eventually he ate two treats (a carroty and a dried pea) then I made him move by chasing him a little round the room - not nice bunny mummy - but to get his tummy juices going. This seemed to work as he dived in his hay and started eating. So I went to bed.

This morning OH has got up and said he is still sitting not doing much - as I say not that unusual for him - and also not really eaten any of his pellets or veg from last night. Again this is not that unusual but lately he had been eating quite well.

However his poos are a little bit soft. We are going to try and tempt him with some grass and dandelions but he isnt a big one for these, either.

He had his teeth checked just recently so its almost certainly not that.

Our vets opens at 8 - I think I will have to take him then but if anyone has any ideas for the meantime I would be very grateful.

I've just woken up feeling terrible myself (tooth out Monday and continued heavy cold/temperature) but I need to muster some strength for my little man.

Thanks for reading and any advice.

A trip to the vet sounds like a good idea. Go with your instincts - you know when something isn't quite right. Then you know you have done your best for him.

Meanwhile, all I can suggest is keep him warm if his ears are cold and keep on with what you are doing. Is he drinking?

Good luck at the vet and lots of TLC for you both.

I have just got up and seen his poos - one is proper diarrhoea - like a cecotroph all mashed in to one, the other is mostly fur

However he is just literally this second eating a piece of carrot and we think he may have eaten another dried pea.

I havent seen him drink.

His ears felt cold last night and I snuggled him up with me for some time but then he jumped down of his own accord - I saw this as a good sign last night.

I think it is essential he is examined by a Vet this morning. Examination is the only way to obtain a true picture of what is going on.

Good Luck and lots of vibes being sent xx

Thank you. I am going to be waiting outside the doors when they open at 8am. He is not bothered by any more carrot or banana.

He is sitting with me and seems alert.

I know this is a gross question but is it worth taking the poos with me to show the vet?

helgalush said:

Thank you. I am going to be waiting outside the doors when they open at 8am. He is not bothered by any more carrot or banana.

He is sitting with me and seems alert.

I know this is a gross question but is it worth taking the poos with me to show the vet?

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You could do

I'd pop SB onto a heatpad for now.He will probably require fluid therapy (subcutaneous or IV) aswell as any medication the Vet prescribes.

Thank you. Will report back when I can to let you know how he is doing

helgalush said:

Thank you. Will report back when I can to let you know how he is doing

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I'll be thinking of him and I hope that he will soon feel much better xx

No advice but sending get well vibes for you and Starbuck.

Hope you and Starbuck got on ok at the vets. You poor thing having to do this post-wisdom tooth removal. .

I agree he doesn't sound like himself at all and needs a check up. If it's any consolation, when Poppy passes a big furry dropping she ALWAYS passes a caecotroph first (but only rarely malformed as Starbuck did). What happens is that the fur coming through in a wad causes a temporary ileus which allows sudden overgrowth in the caecum, so that when the caecum next empties the flora is all wrong and the contents have either gone to mush or tastes/smells wrong. Generally once the fur dropping has passed Poppy's droppings return to normal immediately afterwards, caecotrophs too. I have always found dwarf-lops to be more susceptible to caecal upset in this way. However, Poppy rarely passes a lot of fur, we brush her daily. Neither or my two particularly like the furminator but it does work quite well on certain areas. The best overall brush that both buns enjoy being brushed with we have found to be the pink zoom groom by Kong (rubber pronged brush).

Poppy never responds well to fibreplex, it upsets her more, she does better with lots of hay and no veg for a day or two, but Starbuck might benefit from some probiotics and def a day/two off his veg. I hope he feels better soon x

We are back from the vets. We saw Rebecca, our rabbit savvy vet, which is great as she doesnt normally do Wednesdays.

She felt all round Starbuck's tummy and said it was fairly soft, and then stopped in her tracks and said "oh actually there are a couple of hard bits". She could also feel that some of his poos werent properly formed - I was in awe of how she could tell this by feeling his tummy. So it seems as though his tummy is not right but the good news is that she did not think he was in stasis.

He did eat a little hay before I took him and one piece of carrot on the way!

So she gave him a shot of metacam and a shot of vetergesic, and some Recovery for me to syringe feed him.

I had to bunny burrito him to do the syringeing - I must find out how to do this better - and I have no idea if it was of the desired consistency. But anyway he has had 2mls of that (she said to do little and often), then he went and munched on his hay. He has also had a quarter of an apple grated, and has some grated carrot but not touching that at the minute.

Any other advice you have would be gratefully received, or vibes.

Rebecca did say that she has had to do surgery on a bunny before that had a hair blockage but I read in RabbitLopaedia that this is seriously bad news, so hopefully he can just pass it with food.

Vicky - thanks for the info about the other brush - I think I will look in to getting one of them, he is still in full moult and he HATES the furminator and it worried me as one time I used it it seemed to almost take too much fur

helgalush said:

We are back from the vets. We saw Rebecca, our rabbit savvy vet, which is great as she doesnt normally do Wednesdays.

She felt all round Starbuck's tummy and said it was fairly soft, and then stopped in her tracks and said "oh actually there are a couple of hard bits". She could also feel that some of his poos werent properly formed - I was in awe of how she could tell this by feeling his tummy. So it seems as though his tummy is not right but the good news is that she did not think he was in stasis.

He did eat a little hay before I took him and one piece of carrot on the way!

So she gave him a shot of metacam and a shot of vetergesic, and some Recovery for me to syringe feed him.

I had to bunny burrito him to do the syringeing - I must find out how to do this better - and I have no idea if it was of the desired consistency. But anyway he has had 2mls of that (she said to do little and often), then he went and munched on his hay. He has also had a quarter of an apple grated, and has some grated carrot but not touching that at the minute.

Any other advice you have would be gratefully received, or vibes.

Rebecca did say that she has had to do surgery on a bunny before that had a hair blockage but I read in RabbitLopaedia that this is seriously bad news, so hopefully he can just pass it with food.

Vicky - thanks for the info about the other brush - I think I will look in to getting one of them, he is still in full moult and he HATES the furminator and it worried me as one time I used it it seemed to almost take too much fur

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I would ONLY allow this as a last resort and performed by either an exotic vet or a regular vet with a lot of rabbit experience. It carries a HUGE risk and generally is only very rarely needed if there is a total unmoving obstruction. I suspect she can feel a couple of dried impacted faeces either in his lower bowel or caecum and with PLENTY of sub-cutaneous fluids, food going in the other end and gut motility drugs this should break down and pass out given time. Fluids are absolutely essential to shift any dried ingesta in the guts - did she not give Starbuck any? In which case you could either go back for them (more stress but may be necessary if things don't improve) but as he is eating I would just keep encouraging this. In my experience a bun with a total blockage won't keep eating - so your job is to get lots of fluids in. Offer some wet leaves - fresh herbs soaking wet, carrot tops, radish tops - anything he likes. You can also try syringing him some cooled herbal tea (peppermint/fennel/nettle) to keep his oral fluids up as well. He is eating so try not to worry too much about surgery etc - this is very last resort and Starbuck doesn't sound like he is anywhere near this stage yet, I have every faith his tum will get back to normal in no time. It is much better to try and pass the fur out naturally if you can. Lots of hay/fresh grass/dandelions/bramble leaves if he will eat them will help push it along.

If your vet is concerned about a total wool block then she really must do a conscious Xray first to check his tum. If all is ok then I would want gut motility meds to help push any ingesta/fur out.

prettylupin said:

I would ONLY allow this as a last resort and performed by either an exotic vet or a regular vet with a lot of rabbit experience. It carries a HUGE risk and generally is only very rarely needed if there is a total unmoving obstruction. I suspect she can feel a couple of dried impacted faeces either in his lower bowel or caecum and with PLENTY of sub-cutaneous fluids, food going in the other end and gut motility drugs this should break down and pass out given time. Fluids are absolutely essential to shift any dried ingesta in the guts - did she not give Starbuck any? In which case you could either go back for them (more stress but may be necessary if things don't improve) but as he is eating I would just keep encouraging this. In my experience a bun with a total blockage won't keep eating - so your job is to get lots of fluids in. Offer some wet leaves - fresh herbs soaking wet, carrot tops, radish tops - anything he likes. You can also try syringing him some cooled herbal tea (peppermint/fennel/nettle) to keep his oral fluids up as well. He is eating so try not to worry too much about surgery etc - this is very last resort and Starbuck doesn't sound like he is anywhere near this stage yet, I have every faith his tum will get back to normal in no time. It is much better to try and pass the fur out naturally if you can. Lots of hay/fresh grass/dandelions/bramble leaves if he will eat them will help push it along.

If your vet is concerned about a total wool block then she really must do a conscious Xray first to check his tum. If all is ok then I would want gut motility meds to help push any ingesta/fur out.

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Thank you Vicky for explaining that, that helps me to understand more what is going on. Sorry I didnt mean to panic anyone by saying about the surgery, more just kind of saying that she had mentioned it....she didnt suggest he was anywhere near that stage, although she did say if I went back she would have to keep him in.

I did ask if he needed any fluids and she said he wasnt dehydrated so she didnt think it was necessary.

I also asked about a gut stimulant and she said that as his gut hasnt stopped then he didnt need that either, but to go with the Recovery and grated apple/carrot to encourage him to eat. The apple has been very juicy so hopefully that is good and he is eating lots of hay.

I am going to give him some more Recovery now - not that he will thank me for it And see how he is doing - I am trying not to stand over him and keep checking him as I think that puts him off more!

I will go and get some parsley from the garden, he usually loves that

Thanks.

PS Is it possible at this stage to give him too much apple? He has had half of one but apart from hay it seems to be the only thing he is eating

helgalush said:

Thank you Vicky for explaining that, that helps me to understand more what is going on. Sorry I didnt mean to panic anyone by saying about the surgery, more just kind of saying that she had mentioned it....she didnt suggest he was anywhere near that stage, although she did say if I went back she would have to keep him in.

I did ask if he needed any fluids and she said he wasnt dehydrated so she didnt think it was necessary.

I also asked about a gut stimulant and she said that as his gut hasnt stopped then he didnt need that either, but to go with the Recovery and grated apple/carrot to encourage him to eat. The apple has been very juicy so hopefully that is good and he is eating lots of hay.

I am going to give him some more Recovery now - not that he will thank me for it And see how he is doing - I am trying not to stand over him and keep checking him as I think that puts him off more!

I will go and get some parsley from the garden, he usually loves that

Thanks.

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Sadly I feel many vets just don't recognise how quickly rabbits dehydrate and although they 'may' not feel dehydrated - if their gut has dried ingesta in it then they really need those fluids. I have been amazed at how easily my rabbits have both in the past sucked up sub-cut fluids in huge amounts and still passed dried looking ingesta hours later. I always insist on them with unfamiliar vets, my vet gives them automatically if bun is in this state. But nevermind, you can make it up a little bit orally by increasing fluids on leaves or by syringe. xx

helgalush said:

PS Is it possible at this stage to give him too much apple? He has had half of one but apart from hay it seems to be the only thing he is eating

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I would not give him any more apple now.

Hay is great, even if that is all he will eat. Try to encourage him to drink as it is important to keep the gut contents well hydrated. This is why I mentioned SQ fluids. Even if the Rabbit is not clinically dehydrated giving SQ fluids reduces the rate of absorption of fluid from the guts, this fluid absorption happens rapidly when the GI tract is not functioning well. If the gut contents become dehydrated an impaction is more likely to occur.

ETA Posted at the same time as PL and said almost the same thing !!

helgalush said:

PS Is it possible at this stage to give him too much apple? He has had half of one but apart from hay it seems to be the only thing he is eating

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I personally wouldn't over do it and would try as many different weeds and herbs as possible first before resorting back to apple again. The sugar won't help his unbalanced caecum, but if it is all he will eat it is better than nothing. x

Jane and Vicky thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it. I am very worried right now. Not that he has got any worse but because I am worried if he doesnt get better.

I have given him some wet grass (grass that I have washed) and washed dandelions that are still wet. He had a nibble on a bit of grass but is just sat looking glum.

I dont know how to encourage him to drink water other than to point at it when he is near it.

I think the Recovery I just gave him ended up more down his chin than in his mouth and that is going to make it worse as then he ends up licking more hair in!

And now Kenco seems to be having wet poos and is moulting again so will have to go out and furminate him now....

I know its been said a thousand times but those with several sick bunnies/rescues I dont know how you do it.

I might get myself some breakfast in a minute...

Dandelions's are going down well - thank goodness the garden is full of them!

I didn't see your thread Earlier. I hope Starbuck is on the mend now? xx