Bunny Calcium Diet & Health Worries! :o(

Hi I posted back in July about Lightsa - my Lionhead bunny, with what was finally diagnosed with Bladder Sludge problems. I changed his diet to the Oxbrow Bunny Basics T. Took him off his previous diet slowly, and he seemed to be doing fine, although he is not eating as he should and its showing, because he doesn't like Timothy hay, or the Oxbrow Bunny Basics T.

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I'm a little upset also about the Bunny Basics T. I didn't do my research and ordered it, because it was recommended on here. I didn't realise the pellets were so small and you don't feed as much as I did for Excel. I bit the bullet, borrowed some cash from friends (which I've now paid back) and ordered it from the internet, along with some Oxbrow Timothy hay - 4kgs for £10. The 22kgs sack of Bunny Basics came, and I was shocked to read that it says it only lasts to December 2010 - I've been feeding it since July, and I've barely made a dent in it so I think I will end up binning over half of it - a bitter pill to swallow. Does it usually have such a short shelf life???

Then the other day, my other bunny, Littleblack, an 8yr old unneutered male Black Netherland Dwarf, rescued at the same time as Lightsa from the same place, had bloody urine. Straight to the vet with him, and he's now on a course of Baytril. The vet said because the cages are next to each other (I had moved them while Lightsa was ill to avoid cross infecting, but maybe didn't wait long enough before moving him back) it's possible there was cross infection, so just to be safe, Lightsa is also on a course of Baytril too.

I don't know if it's normal, but both bunnies always seem to be a bit depressed during moulting season, and this season seems to have hit them both badly. I brush them lots and am continually amazed how much these bunnies lose, fur wise. Is it normal for them to be on a 'downer' over moult season?

Anyway - I've put them both on the Basics T diet, and stopped all the herbs and things they had before, because of the calcium levels, but apart from the fur loss, both have dramatically lost condition. It could be the moult, but even before that, they both just don't seem to be doing so well on the new diet at all, and both hate it and seem grumpy about it.

Both Bunnies are now bedded on Timothy Hay, which costs me an absolute fortune, and its breaking my heart, but I really don't know how much longer I can keep this up on a financial level, the last vet trip with Littleblack was £90, and I've previously spent about £800 on Lightsa over the last couple months - my folks have put their foot down and in tears told me we can't take them to the vets if this keeps up, meaning only one option left. I am on Jobseekers Allowance due to ill health, and being out of work for over a year. Is there a cheaper alternative to Timothy, or a cheaper place to buy it (Im in London, UK, and spent £4 on a small bag of it). Or even a low calcium more palatable version for them. The rabbits just aren't seeming to eat any of it, whereas before on the fresh meadow hay, that I bought by the bale for £4 directly from a farm, both bunnies went nuts for the stuff.

The old boys are caged in a wire top extra large cage over night, with access in the day, and the cage is lined with newspaper and lashings of hay. Now Im on Timothy, the beds are obviously less thick, but it's lasting because they aren't eating it. But the cost is drowning me. What do you bed your bunnies on. Vet said no to shavings as both have breathing issues, and no to Carefresh as Lightsa got blisters on his paws from it. Can I use Straw? Or is that too High Calcium too??? Because they will eat it in preference to Timothy.

Then to top it all, this morning, Lightsa is all bunched up and miserable again, and he didn't eat much again last night. My parents said they can't afford another bladder wash, and the vet said the last time, that it would be better to euthanise if we can't do that. Lightsa is far from impressed by Bunny Basics and is also grumpy because he is hungry. How can I encourage him to eat it?

If anyone has a daily Low Calcium diet sheet on what I can give them on a daily basis - meal by meal type thing, and how much, I would be so very grateful. I just can't get my head around lists of veggies, and my vet doesn't seem to know either. I can't find anything concise on the web about it.

So sorry about this long, random, and all over the place, thread. I'm just so worried, deeply emotional, and upset over my two old boys. I just want to do what's right for them, and the odds feel like they are fast stacking up against me.

:wave: what a terrible time you are having
not too sure that i know much about these things..but i can recommend a very good vet who will talk to you over the phone free of charge...if you want his details p m me ...
hope things get better for all of you soon...
have been looking in rabbit health in the 21st century for you...
water bowls are better for bladder sludge as they will drink more water also if you add unsweetened fruit juice to make them drink more...
it says to clean the toilet area as frequently as poss to make him wee more
hope that helps a little...

o h just said do you qualify for blue cross? of similar? i think rspca would help ..

I'm just bumping this up... looks like the OP needs some help if anyone else has any advice.

Lightsa is a little brighter today - he had quite bad diarrhea in the late evening. I gave him plenty of water, and I also put about 8 chunks of excel in his dish, which he dived on, nipping my hand as he snatched them, along with the Basics, and the Fenugreek disks that stimulate his appetite. This morrning he is a bit brighter and even pressed his nose to the bars, as he stood up to say hi when I came down. His droppings seem a little firmer.

The other bunny - Littleblack, is still extremely fed up and grumpy. His food has been picked at, but he just is not impressed by it. I never thought bunnies could be so fussy!

And rabbitmum - thank you so much - I did call the local RSPCA facility but they can't help as we are out of the catchment area. There are no other places that subsidise help with rabbits in the area. And thank you so much for the bowl idea - he did have a bowl but I took it out when he seemed to get better - I have replaced it last night and he lunged his silly fluffy face into straight away! LOL. He surfaced dripping wet and licking his lips frantically. lol. But the bowl was still in the same place and empty this morning - I have refilled it and am buying a heavier and larger bowl tomorrow. Thank you for that! Wish I'd left it in there now from when he was very unwell in July!

Also does anyone know if Straw is a low Calcium bedding that would be safe to use, and wouldn't matter if they ate it???

Meadow hay isn't really that much higher in calcium than timothy, if at all, and if they enjoyed eating that then I would bed them on it and feed them on it - it should be a lot cheaper for you to buy this by the bale as you say, especially if they used to love eating it. I'd forget the timothy or just feed it as a treat and get them back onto their meadow hay.

As you are on JSA you should be able to access a PDSA vet as opposed to paying so much each time, however, they may not be as rabbit savy so it is a risk.

Lots of fluids should help the UTI's and sludge - so yes a bowl is best.

I would also recommend a natural diet if you can find time to go foraging if you are not working? It is free of course and generally bunny safe wild weeds/plants are naturally low in calcium. They should also help improve your bunnies condition as it is what buns are designed to eat and few buns turn their noses up at wild plants. Do you know what to look for? If not, ask, and look through the diet section and in the rabbit chat section for a thread on drying herbs for winter. There are lots of free wild goodies that are just ideal for bunny to eat.

I would avoid straw personally - there is no nutritional value to it at all, you'd be much better off going back to meadow hay.

As for highest calcium greens - ones to avoid - carrot tops, brassicas (kale, brocoli) parsley, (other herbs are fine and generally low in calcium), spinach.
Like I say, if you can supplement the diet with natural greens you should find both appetite, droppings output and general condition improves.
Sorry you are having such a difficult time. x

I have a bun, Sue, who has only half a kidney working so I have been trying to give her a low calcium diet. I feel a bad Bunny Mummy but I haven't changed her hay at all and she is getting the meadow hay all my buns have

I have also been giving her dried cranberries and fruit juice in her water which definitely encourages her to drink more. I'm completely confused about the calcium content of pellets (have put a post about it on here) and am presently giving her excel with cranberries.

I have also started foraging and am giving her loads of grass and dandelion leaves which she adores. She goes to these before any other food. Although I have three jobs I have very little disposable income so I am finding 'free' food is a great help and don't feel guilty as my buns love it so much.

Sue has lost lots of weight too so she also gets carrots and apple, which isn't ideal I know but I need to try and maintain her weight.

You do sound like you are having a bad time. I had a bunny with bladder sludge a couple of years ago (they were on SS) and I moved them to Oxbow Bunny Basics T and he has not had a problem since. I am also careful not to feed too much veg like carrot tops/kale etc as they are higher in calcium.

He has a bowl of water and does like it topped up with a dash of boiling to make it tepid (all of them tend to drink more if it is tepid)

I tried the Allen & Page as I believe they are lower in calcium but I found that their coats were not as shiny so I moved them back to Oxbow and their coats are really healthy now.

A lot of people do use A&P on here and they are about £7 for a huge sack compared to approx £14 I pay for 4.5kg of Oxbow :roll: It might be worth trying them but look into their calcium content first.

Firstly,you are spending far too much money.It would be like us living on champagne & caviar all the time-impossible.I understand you are trying to do your best for your buns,but this is just stressing you out & taking the fun out of bunny ownership.
B is on a low calcium diet due to renal problems.In her case I find Timothy hay aggrivates things so she has hay I get from sainsburys,meadow hay which is green & they love.Once a month she has a bag of oat & barley hay as she loves this & doesn't seem to upset her.She has straw in her cage with megazorb in litter tray.As for her main diet,she has a small amount of excel in the morning & as much fruit & veg as she will eat in 4 hours in evening.We agreed,with her vet, to give her "wet"veg to give her the extra fluid she needs.She has cucumber,carrotts.apples,pears & cabbage leaves on a regular basis & herbs & spring greens occasionally for variety but not often as they sometimes upset her.I was told by vet in Harrogate she could have any greens she wanted even though high in calcium as fluid in greens was more help than not giving them at all but I do find spring greens do upset her more than other veg,but thats just B.
Hope this helps.Enjoy your buns.

I agree about returning to the regular hay - if that's what they enjoy and it's so much cheaper then return to it.

This link will give you some useful foraging tips - it's long, but worth the read!
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=239131

A lot of buns get very 'down' during their moult. The grooming you're doing will help them a lot.

Good luck with everything x

Hi and thank you to all who have read and responded. I have been through some bumps with animals before but this one seems a mammoth to clamber over.

The farm hay is organic (just happens to be that way and a great price) and always has plenty of green blades in it. It is a little journey away, but the day out to buy a bale is financially worth it, and it makes a nice day out too. It's been worth it over the years to get it by the bale direct from the farmer. When I originally got it for the bunnies, and took them off Bagged hay from the garden centre, a lot of their little health conditions disappeared, and they improved condition generally. They had it as floor liner, which was changed every other day, as neither bun ever developed the litter pan usage habit, or going in one corner. It was also in a wall along the back and one side, which they loved to dig and play in. It didn't matter throwing 80% of it out so often, into a compost heap, as the bale lasted ages. So a thin lining of brown, not fresh smelling, Timothy from Pets At Home, a million times more expensive per tiny portion in a bag, just seemed a very poor replacement, but I couldn't do anything else through lack of knowledge, because every I read, people were saying no to meadow hay. If you think Meadow Hay will be ok and not bump up the calcium, then I will very very very happily switch back. Or if you think Straw, would be a better bedding, and then layer hay on top to lower calcium intake, I can do that also. I just know that even if there is a toss up between Straw even if it has no nutrients(?), and Timothy - the two fussies will nibble the straw first.

I love my boys dearly, and like everyone here, just want the best for them, to ensure as long a life as possible. My heart sinks everytime at the vet lately, when they say "Wow - they are old bunnies". When I ask the vet, they are very clued up on health - but not so much on diet. That is where things come unstuck.

The bowl of water seems a really good thing - Lightsa thinks he's a duck, and sits in it, so back to dish shopping I go again! LOL!. But I think he is doing it for the attention he gets from my mum who picks him up to dry him everytime. When I am around he threatens, but I try and copy the angry bunny grunt they make, and he only dips a little of his tail in, which I ignore. Either way he has been drunk loads now. Littleblack repeatedly pushed his water bowl as far into a corner as possible, and buried it before cowering in the opposite corner from it, so I removed it. Both boys were abused and beaten up as youngsters, and I rescued Littleblack with numerous bone breakages in his body, and several behaviourial problems, so I don't know if a bowl was used against him before. He seems fine with the bottle.

As far as fresh veggies goes, both boys started out life on dry dog biscuits, whenever the previous owner could be bothered, which has messed up their digestive systems. If Lightsa has larger than a carrot coin a day of fresh stuff, he gets chronic diarrheoa, that's why I had them on dried herbs from the Naturals range, from Rosewood Pet Products. The vet said to stop that as there were a lot of Alph Alpha in it, and calcium in the dried Dandelion leaves. I am going to look at the drying herbs thread for them. Foraging in my area wouldn't be so good, I would have thought, as the polloutants are high from council pesticides, high traffic and the local airport.

Thank you all for the help. Sorry about the over emotional posts, but at the moment it all seems so overwhelming. It's beginning to feel more 'do-able' the more I read your posts. Thank you so much, from me and the boys!

You sound like a wonderful bunny mummy to me, you care so much it just comethrough in your posts, hence the emotions, I have no really advice but I used to also think that timothy hay was better when I have perused the net, and bought it, To be honest I Bobby turned her nose up, so I buy farm hay now, and its green and has loads of herbs already in it My buns look amazing since the change over. I wonder if a lot of your buns troubles are because they don't like the Timothy hay, so they aren't eating it. Have you tried Hawthorne? My buns strip the branches of the leaves and then eat the twigs.

Best of look honey you are doing great