PDA

View Full Version : Breeding Does Living Together



troyster
08-09-2010, 10:29 PM
Hi there

I've been keeping rabbits for a while now - specifically two New Zealand white, unspayed doe sisters - and I have decided to breed from them. Now, these girls have been living together quite happily, but I'm unsure what to expect of them when they become pregnant. Is it just a case of keeping an eye, and if they start to fight then separate them? Are they even likely to fight?

Basically I've no experience of the difference being pregnant makes to rabbits (though I have huge experience with the change in my wife's moods when pregnant :D ) Your wise counsel would be greatly appreciated.

If it helps - the does live together, sharing a nesting area (though there's room for another easily), an indoor play area, and a large outside run. They're both well-tempered and, as I say, have grown up together.

Thanks

Troyster

VickiP
08-09-2010, 10:34 PM
:wave: When you say you've been keeping rabbits for a while do you mean you have had just these two doe's ? It doesn't say how old they are?

troyster
08-09-2010, 10:49 PM
Hi - good point. At present I only have the two does. They're ten months old, and are large girls! I am thinking of buying a Californian buck (kept in a completely different area) to breed with them, but I want to be sure I know what to expect before I do anything.

vee-jay
08-09-2010, 10:51 PM
I know of a few people who succesfully keep a doe with a litter with a doe who dosent have a litter, and even one who (accidentally i may add) had 2 does each with a litter living together.

It seems to vary between rabbits though, and i wouldnt want to be in the position were one took a dislike to her sisters kits.

DemiS
08-09-2010, 10:53 PM
It's possible, but there's always a risk. Rabbits often got very hormal when pregnant, and she could turn on her hutch mate, if not the hutch mate could easily harm the babies. Then again I've heard of it being done, with the non-pregnant one even helping to nest build.

Just so you know, the forum is extremely anti breeding

troyster
08-09-2010, 11:00 PM
I had noticed a slight slant in that direction, though hadn't realised it was extreme. I'm guessing that's because the RSPCA end up with so many unwanted baby rabbits. . . or that they get palmed off onto irresponsible owners - both things that I'm very eager to avoid!

If it makes anyone feel happier, I breed goats as well :?

As it sounds like such an 'unknown quantity', it may be worth taking one of the does to visit a friendly buck before I think about buying one myself.

Any other thoughts?

vee-jay
08-09-2010, 11:04 PM
What are you breeding for?, do you know if they are show standered?

VickiP
08-09-2010, 11:10 PM
I had noticed a slight slant in that direction, though hadn't realised it was extreme. I'm guessing that's because the RSPCA end up with so many unwanted baby rabbits. . . or that they get palmed off onto irresponsible owners - both things that I'm very eager to avoid!

If it makes anyone feel happier, I breed goats as well :?

As it sounds like such an 'unknown quantity', it may be worth taking one of the does to visit a friendly buck before I think about buying one myself.

Any other thoughts?

:wave: I think Demismith being that she is a moderator on another forum could have worded that better by saying that this a 'rescue' orientated forum rather than saying extremely anti breeding which sounds negative for the sake of it.

Your right in your interpretations there are lots of rescues overflowing atm with buns awaiting homes and no shortages in the pet shops, am I naive assuming your breeding for pets rather than meat? The same applies to your goats - why are you breeding them?

Whichever way you look at it, the law as it stands is impotent in terms of protecting animals from anyone deciding to 'breed' them regardless of finances, accomodation, time, knowledge etc so it's a fact that we all have to live with until the law catches up with the fact that as a civilised society there has to be legislation applied, in an ideal world we could trust people to use common sense, compassion and logic before embarking on the 'breeding' bandwagon - sadly it's been proven this isn't working - no disrespect to you intended but, time after time people 'choose' to do this without really considering the animals welfare - it is actually at the bottom of the list of priorities.

I don't know why you've decided to do it but, you must think carefully because at best you will have a large number of healthy rabbits and your doe alive - at worst you will lose your doe and maybe some kits.

There are forums specifically for breeders, if your breeding for meat purposes then I think perhaps you will honestly get want you want from them.

HS
08-09-2010, 11:12 PM
Firstly welcome to the forum!
There are a lot of rescues on this forum, who have to deal with the consequences of accidental and irresponsible breeding (not saying that you are one of those!) but the forum is rescue biased.
I can't help you with the answers to your questions, I'm afraid, but will ask why you are wanting to breed them? (in an interested, not accusatory, way!)

troyster
08-09-2010, 11:14 PM
Tentatively I reply 'to eat'. The same reason I breed my goats (and keep pigs occasionally).

I don't like to eat meat from the supermarket, as I don't know what standard of welfare has been employed - or rather, having seen a few farms, I do! All the meat that my family eat is produced in house, or at least on the premises, and I can ensure that my animals are all looked after well and enjoy their lives.

While I'm picking up the vibe that most on this forum keep rabbits as pets only, which is great, I would rather have advice from you guys that from rabbit farmers. I visited a rabbit farm a few years ago and was HORRIFIED at the living conditions!

VickiP
08-09-2010, 11:15 PM
I had noticed a slight slant in that direction, though hadn't realised it was extreme. I'm guessing that's because the RSPCA end up with so many unwanted baby rabbits. . . or that they get palmed off onto irresponsible owners - both things that I'm very eager to avoid!

If it makes anyone feel happier, I breed goats as well :?

As it sounds like such an 'unknown quantity', it may be worth taking one of the does to visit a friendly buck before I think about buying one myself.
Any other thoughts?

See from a pet owners perspective that is horrendous, we all know rabbits prefer not to travel and a buck locked in a 'breeding' hutch is likely to be 3ft if its lucky - Defra regs are 0.56msq and I've seen Californians and NZ whites confined to these prisons 24/7 for the 'owners' pleasure. The whole experience will be far from pleasurable for the doe so don't kid yourself that she will 'enjoy' herself.:wave:

VickiP
08-09-2010, 11:17 PM
Tentatively I reply 'to eat'. The same reason I breed my goats (and keep pigs occasionally).

I don't like to eat meat from the supermarket, as I don't know what standard of welfare has been employed - or rather, having seen a few farms, I do! All the meat that my family eat is produced in house, or at least on the premises, and I can ensure that my animals are all looked after well and enjoy their lives.

While I'm picking up the vibe that most on this forum keep rabbits as pets only, which is great, I would rather have advice from you guys that from rabbit farmers. I visited a rabbit farm a few years ago and was HORRIFIED at the living conditions!

Thankyou for being honest, I will be honest with you, I can't have a conversation with you regarding eating rabbits anymore than I could have a conversation with an oriental person who eats dog. So I bow out now goodnight :)

vee-jay
09-09-2010, 07:36 AM
Tentatively I reply 'to eat'. The same reason I breed my goats (and keep pigs occasionally).

I don't like to eat meat from the supermarket, as I don't know what standard of welfare has been employed - or rather, having seen a few farms, I do! All the meat that my family eat is produced in house, or at least on the premises, and I can ensure that my animals are all looked after well and enjoy their lives.

While I'm picking up the vibe that most on this forum keep rabbits as pets only, which is great, I would rather have advice from you guys that from rabbit farmers. I visited a rabbit farm a few years ago and was HORRIFIED at the living conditions!

ok, well I suppose that show standerd hasnt got much to do with that:lol:
I would find a good NZ or calafornian rabbit breeder and talk to them....most of them eat thier stock anyway even if they are for show so should have some info, im sorry but i dont know much about it.
I understand were you are coming from, and i think to me were you are getting your meat is a whole lot better than were some people get it.

GrahamL
09-09-2010, 08:33 AM
Thankyou for being honest, I will be honest with you, I can't have a conversation with you regarding eating rabbits anymore than I could have a conversation with an oriental person who eats dog. So I bow out now goodnight :)

Didn't want to read and run, but i'm going to have to agree with VickiP and bow out myself, can't talk to you about breeding rabbits for meat:wave:

emilybun
09-09-2010, 08:54 AM
well i must say i applaud you for being honest, i have my bunnies just as pets but i would buy rabbit meat from my butchers! i dont really see why people get upset, its just like eating chicken of beef or lamb! I am glad you are going to try and breed with the rabbits welfare and conditions in mind. Although i would like to add that I have heard that if you have two pregnant does sometimes on of the does will kill the others litter to make way for her own. I hope you have every sucess :)

Azraelm
09-09-2010, 09:06 AM
Hi,
Here is an article on breeding:
http://www.rabbitrehome.org.uk/care/breedingrabbits.asp

And also one on care of giant breeds: http://www.rabbitrehome.org.uk/care/giantrabbits.asp

I would urge you not to breed your does though- you are lucky they live together happily unspayed as it is. When they become more hormonal they are likely to fall out.

And yes this is a 'pet' rabbit forum. Most members will not want to discuss eating rabbits, myself included being a vege.

Kirsty2oo9
09-09-2010, 09:08 AM
Hi there

I've been keeping rabbits for a while now - specifically two New Zealand white, unspayed doe sisters - and I have decided to breed from them. Now, these girls have been living together quite happily, but I'm unsure what to expect of them when they become pregnant. Is it just a case of keeping an eye, and if they start to fight then separate them? Are they even likely to fight?

Basically I've no experience of the difference being pregnant makes to rabbits (though I have huge experience with the change in my wife's moods when pregnant :D ) Your wise counsel would be greatly appreciated.

If it helps - the does live together, sharing a nesting area (though there's room for another easily), an indoor play area, and a large outside run. They're both well-tempered and, as I say, have grown up together.

Thanks

Troyster



=/////// Wrong!

VickiP
09-09-2010, 09:47 AM
well i must say i applaud you for being honest, i have my bunnies just as pets but i would buy rabbit meat from my butchers! i dont really see why people get upset, its just like eating chicken of beef or lamb! I am glad you are going to try and breed with the rabbits welfare and conditions in mind. Although i would like to add that I have heard that if you have two pregnant does sometimes on of the does will kill the others litter to make way for her own. I hope you have every sucess :)

I think when people have animals as 'pets' and given the rabbit is the UK's 3rd most popular pet, making millions for vets and pet supplies industries - the thought of someone 'DIY' necking and skinning and eating is upsetting, even people who have a 'pet' cow or chicken or lamb it's highly unlikely to live in their house as some of the rabbits on here do, also I don't think most omnivores would cull their own chicken, lamb, cows or breed them in their back yard, in fact a lot of farmers don't eat their own livestock for this reason - even though they aren't pets and provide a 'living' for the farmer they sometimes still are unable to consume their own animals.

I also think the significant thing that upsets people about rabbits being bred for meat is that regardless of how well intentioned someone is, often the conditions are dire - they are housed in tiny accomodation and don't get any interaction that a pet would get - as Mandy said we all keep them as pets so we know how intelligent, responsive, gentle they are (mostly) and it is upsetting to think of them reared to just 3 months and then necked.

I've always said I can understand the principle of eating rabbit to sustain human life in an African village for example where conditions for rearing other meat animals are dire, I can't understand it as a choice in this country when it's not necessity given that the animal doesn't provide a lot of meat it doesn't seem cost effective even. With other farm animals like chickens, cows etc there are a lot of other products from the culling of these animals and hopefully not much wasteage, I think people do have a right to choose but, there should be legislation in place to protect the animals welfare and ensure the person is trained properly to perform the culling as humanely as possible.

There are oriental cultures that eat dog and cats I think, in theory why shouldn't an immigrant be allowed to come here and breed them on their land for meat? It wouldn't be allowed because our culture determines that these animals are not part of the 'food' chain, I genuinely think that in time rabbit will no longer be part of the UK food chain, it will die out as it should in line with the fact they are a pet and not required in the food chain, the fact people are eating them now is just still an attachment to the past when they were required 'through the war' etc as a food source, there are still some old folk now passing on their experience to younger people - it doesn't mean it's right or necessary IMO, equally not necessarily wrong but, inappropriate yes it is IMO.:wave:

Angie65
09-09-2010, 10:00 AM
well i must say i applaud you for being honest, i have my bunnies just as pets but i would buy rabbit meat from my butchers! i dont really see why people get upset, its just like eating chicken of beef or lamb! I am glad you are going to try and breed with the rabbits welfare and conditions in mind. Although i would like to add that I have heard that if you have two pregnant does sometimes on of the does will kill the others litter to make way for her own. I hope you have every sucess :)

I agree, but then I'm vegan.

I would be very wary about them raising a litter together - it does work sometimes. I had 2 does arrive here that gave birth the same night - as I didn't know for sure who Mum was, I left them together - successfully - although the litter was scattered several times, I only lost one baby bun. It is quite common for another doe or the buck to kill the babes.

As far as eating your buns goes - I actually think that is better than eating 2p sausages from Tescos - but just cos they are your own buns doesn't mean you "know" the meat. The majority of pet buns have at some point come into contact with EC, which CAN be contracted by humans if they have a compromised immune system.

ETA: also I wouldn't agree that keeping buns alone in hutches was humane or natural either. Unspayed does have a high risk of developing cancer (something like 80%) & add to that the hormonal issues of a un-neutered doe or buck & you have a frustrated or unhappy bun

Sky-O
09-09-2010, 10:16 AM
I am not anti breeding, I'm anti irresponsibility.

I don't think that taking a girl to see a random buck is sensible because of the risks associatied with what that buck may be carrying, and exposing your rabbits to that.

Ideally you need to get your own, and you need to heavily quarantine him, and then breed, but by then your girls may be too old to breed from (that won't take long, they need to be bred for the first time while at an age that seems young to us. I'm unsure exactly of what the age is for a NZ white, but would suspect maybe 11 months or so because they are a bigger breed, but I'm unsure if that is accurate, so please check out on that).

Leaving two together and breeding them seems like a huge risk to those bunnies to me.

Personally, with regards to meat breeding, what is most important to me is that an animal has a good life, and a humane death. It doesn't matter to me what someone else choose to do with their animal once it is dead. If you breed and raise these yourself then at least you will know they have had a good life.

raine
09-09-2010, 11:28 AM
Im wondering is "being reasonable" and "not wanting to make a fuss" inherrant in all Brits. Only the Brits would stand in a long queue in a store without fussing. To me this is another example. Where in the world would someone post on a pet forum, about raising rabbits to kill and eat them and we all answer nicely:roll::roll:

Im intrigued that with google, you were unable to find all the information you required and just happened upon a pet forum to ask this information. Assuming it is a genuine, heres a link to sites that might be more appropriate to your meat production:

http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/aol/search?s_it=sb_uk&q=raising%20rabbits%20for%20food

Morgana
09-09-2010, 11:39 AM
Hi :)

I have two young does living together and recently my male rabbit broke into them, it turned out they weren't pregnant (been about 40 days!) but I did a lot of research into keeping them together and asked a lot of breeders.

I heard the odd story of one doe mutilating or killing the other's litter, so there is a risk. But most breeders said it would be fine for them to live together, that they keep up to five does together and they all help look after the kits. :) Just to watch them for any aggressive behaviour, and if they get aggressive to separate them.

Also make sure they have lots of space, and 2 nesting boxes/areas, though they might both use the same nest box apparently.

Good luck with them :)

P.S. I'm vegan so don't eat meat, and could never face eating an animal that I bred myself and "knew" personally . . . but I think it's admirable that you raise your own animals for meat instead of buying the meat from places with poor welfare standards. I don't think anyone who eats meat could judge you for that, but I understand why people wouldn't want to talk about eating rabbits if they have pet ones.

Morgana
09-09-2010, 11:41 AM
[QUOTE=raine;4015940]Im wondering is "being reasonable" and "not wanting to make a fuss" inherrant in all Brits. Only the Brits would stand in a long queue in a store without fussing. To me this is another example. Where in the world would someone post on a pet forum, about raising rabbits to kill and eat them and we all answer nicely:roll::roll:
/QUOTE]

Well I understand that they wanted advice from pet owners, rather than farmers.

And people asked why they wanted to breed the rabbits, so to eat is the honest answer.

Sure, it's not nice to think about it cos we have rabbits as pets. But a lot of people on here eat meat, so to me there's no difference really.

VickiP
09-09-2010, 11:45 AM
[QUOTE=raine;4015940]Im wondering is "being reasonable" and "not wanting to make a fuss" inherrant in all Brits. Only the Brits would stand in a long queue in a store without fussing. To me this is another example. Where in the world would someone post on a pet forum, about raising rabbits to kill and eat them and we all answer nicely:roll::roll:
/QUOTE]

Well I understand that they wanted advice from pet owners, rather than farmers.

And people asked why they wanted to breed the rabbits, so to eat is the honest answer.

Sure, it's not nice to think about it cos we have rabbits as pets. But a lot of people on here eat meat, so to me there's no difference really.

I think Raine made a good point though, the way you raise 'stock' to eat is completely different to the way you treat and handle/raise a pet animal.

It's also a valid point in the sense that they must realise as a 'pet' forum people will feel uncomfortable about what they are doing. A link has been provided for the OP.

I sincerely hope the OP will seek advice before doing the 'culling' themselves and not just watch video's on youtube where people are 'sharing' the techniques - how kind :evil: It's vital that the suffering and distress to the animal and the other animals is minimal as possible I think and on that basis you must ensure you know what your doing.

Morgana
09-09-2010, 11:50 AM
[QUOTE=Morgana;4015969]

I think Raine made a good point though, the way you raise 'stock' to eat is completely different to the way you treat and handle/raise a pet animal.

It's also a valid point in the sense that they must realise as a 'pet' forum people will feel uncomfortable about what they are doing. A link has been provided for the OP.


Yeah, it's definitely different. I hope the OP came on here for advice, because they want to raise the animals in good welfare standards though . . . because some advice they might get from farmers might not be as good as from here.

Like if I was breeding rabbits, I'd prefer to get advice from here on housing, etc. than from breeders, cos people here often have better welfare standards for their buns. :)

And I agree people would definitely feel uncomfortable about this. I really don't like to think about meat rabbits at all, but I don't like to think about chickens or cows or pigs being farmed either. I know some people could be even more sensitive though, and feel quite sickened by this thread . . .

Maybe a moderator could put a warning in the title?

VickiP
09-09-2010, 11:56 AM
I don't know what your doing to quote Morgana but, it's making them all jumbled up and confusing what people are saying what :lol: Do you just hit the quote button and then type your reply or do you highlight the text and copy and paste into a reply?

Yes hopefully no-one will be upset by this thread, it's not pleasant but, sadly it does happen, I see what your thinking regarding housing and ideally yes 'meat animals' would have the same rights to the '5 freedoms' that pets are entitled to, sadly they don't get those rights. Farmed rabbits even by people in domestic houses (back yards) are never given the space that we see as 'good practice' they are in tiny boxes, single and alone and lucky or rather unlucky :? to make it to 3 months old.:(

I just hope that these people who are doing it don't cull them in front of the others, I asked a breeder who does this if he culls them in front of the others and he had done but, accepted that maybe it is better to take them into the house as they do quite often scream.:cry:

georgie_f
09-09-2010, 11:57 AM
I think Raine made a good point though, the way you raise 'stock' to eat is completely different to the way you treat and handle/raise a pet animal.
It's also a valid point in the sense that they must realise as a 'pet' forum people will feel uncomfortable about what they are doing. A link has been provided for the OP.

I sincerely hope the OP will seek advice before doing the 'culling' themselves and not just watch video's on youtube where people are 'sharing' the techniques - how kind :evil: It's vital that the suffering and distress to the animal and the other animals is minimal as possible I think and on that basis you must ensure you know what your doing.

It doesn't have to be. I may be totally wrong, but I feel like the OP has come here (to a pet forum) for advice as we will tell them more appropriate welfare based ways to raise the rabbits. They don't seem to want to raise them based on Defra's shoddy guidelines. It sounds to me like they want to do it 'right' and give the rabbits decent care and living conditions.

Personally, like most people, I could never eat a rabbit that's been a pet or kill one for food with my own hands (or any animal for that matter, even though I do eat meat) but I do feel that if the OP wants to raise them for food, but raise them in a kind and fair way then they should be able to. If eating their well cared for rabbits means they won't be eating cheap battery chickens or other cheap meat then I can only think of that as a good thing, as odd as I feel saying it.

I do agree that they shouldn't kill anything without being properly trained or shown how though. The scope for unnessecary suffering there is far to large for a novice to be tackling it.

VickiP
09-09-2010, 11:59 AM
It doesn't have to be. I may be totally wrong, but I feel like the OP has come here (to a pet forum) for advice as we will tell them more appropriate welfare based ways to raise the rabbits. They don't seem to want to raise them based on Defra's shoddy guidelines. It sounds to me like they want to do it 'right' and give the rabbits decent care and living conditions.

Personally, like most people, I could never eat a rabbit that's been a pet or kill one for food with my own hands (or any animal for that matter, even though I do eat meat) but I do feel that if the OP wants to raise them for food, but raise them in a kind and fair way then they should be able to. If eating their well cared for rabbits means they won't be eating cheap battery chickens or other cheap meat then I can only think of that as a good thing, as odd as I feel saying it.

I do agree that they shouldn't kill anything without being properly trained or shown how though. The scope for unnessecary suffering there is far to large for a novice to be tackling it.

I don't think anyone is disputing that :wave:

KarenM
09-09-2010, 12:01 PM
I hope the OP came on here for advice, because they want to raise the animals in good welfare standards though . . . because some advice they might get from farmers might not be as good as from here.

Like if I was breeding rabbits, I'd prefer to get advice from here on housing, etc. than from breeders, cos people here often have better welfare standards for their buns. :)

I agree. :thumb:

It makes me uncomfortable, in the sense that I couldn't imagine raising rabbits for meat myself, but I think it's commendable that the OP is trying to research fully before leaping in.

He/she also seems to want to get good information for the welfare of the rabbits, rather than relying on sites dedicated to rabbit farming - as already pointed out by some of the people opposed to raising rabbits for meat, farming conditions often leave a lot to be desired so these places aren't necessarily the best to get info from.

raine
09-09-2010, 12:17 PM
I agree with you that some farmers do keep their rabbits in disgraceful conditions. Do you have any photos of the great set up you have described for your bunnies?

troyster
09-09-2010, 02:14 PM
Thank you all for your input. I really didn't want to upset anyone and start a debate about eating rabbits :oops:

Thanks also for the various links, which I have checked out. My reasons for coming to you was, as stated, because welfare always has to come first, and if it is impractical for me to breed rabbits in conditions that ensure they enjoy their lives, then I won't do it. I had sought advice from rabbit breeders / farmers, but didn't like their set ups of high rise hutches and no room to run around in. Five freedoms and DEFRA regs are all well and good but is 0.56 sqm really enough space to live in :? I'd hate it!

You make good points about the buck - I won't be 'visiting' one, but will hold out to buy one and quarantine him. If it turns out that the girls are too old to breed from, they'll have to return to being pets (which I'm happy with).

As for dispatching, I have been trained (both in humane poultry and rabbit dispatch) and do not do it in front of other animals.

Enough about such unpleasantness - I hope all is well with you and your rabbits. Pets are wonderful :)

DemiS
09-09-2010, 03:53 PM
Personally I think it's great you're raising your own meat. I'm a strict vegetarian, not because I don't like the idea of eating animals, it's because most are kept in horrible conditions. I would happily eat something knowing it had a good life, infact I'm going to start doing that soon as I've been quite poorly since going veggie :?

Morgana
09-09-2010, 04:00 PM
Personally I think it's great you're raising your own meat. I'm a strict vegetarian, not because I don't like the idea of eating animals, it's because most are kept in horrible conditions. I would happily eat something knowing it had a good life, infact I'm going to start doing that soon as I've been quite poorly since going veggie :?

Sorry to hear that you've been poorly cos of it. Do you know why it is? Like is it low iron, or something else? Do you take vitamin supplements?

Do you eat eggs? It might be an idea if you can find eggs from chickens kept in good conditions, that it might be good for you.

When I first went vegan I lost a lot of weight and was down to just over 6 stone (5'5") which wasn't too good, but thankfully I'm much healthier now and gained a stone and a half back :) . . . I think I just had to adjust to it. But I do find if I don't eat very healthily or forget to take my vitamins for a while then I do feel quite low in energy and unweell.

Shellypops
09-09-2010, 04:01 PM
Thank you all for your input. I really didn't want to upset anyone and start a debate about eating rabbits :oops:

Thanks also for the various links, which I have checked out. My reasons for coming to you was, as stated, because welfare always has to come first, and if it is impractical for me to breed rabbits in conditions that ensure they enjoy their lives, then I won't do it. I had sought advice from rabbit breeders / farmers, but didn't like their set ups of high rise hutches and no room to run around in. Five freedoms and DEFRA regs are all well and good but is 0.56 sqm really enough space to live in :? I'd hate it!

You make good points about the buck - I won't be 'visiting' one, but will hold out to buy one and quarantine him. If it turns out that the girls are too old to breed from, they'll have to return to being pets (which I'm happy with).

As for dispatching, I have been trained (both in humane poultry and rabbit dispatch) and do not do it in front of other animals.

Enough about such unpleasantness - I hope all is well with you and your rabbits. Pets are wonderful :)

Well I think its great you have been so honest, and I think your way of getting your meat is far more ethical than buying fro Tescos..

VickiP
09-09-2010, 05:25 PM
Thank you all for your input. I really didn't want to upset anyone and start a debate about eating rabbits :oops:

Thanks also for the various links, which I have checked out. My reasons for coming to you was, as stated, because welfare always has to come first, and if it is impractical for me to breed rabbits in conditions that ensure they enjoy their lives, then I won't do it. I had sought advice from rabbit breeders / farmers, but didn't like their set ups of high rise hutches and no room to run around in. Five freedoms and DEFRA regs are all well and good but is 0.56 sqm really enough space to live in :? I'd hate it!

You make good points about the buck - I won't be 'visiting' one, but will hold out to buy one and quarantine him. If it turns out that the girls are too old to breed from, they'll have to return to being pets (which I'm happy with).

As for dispatching, I have been trained (both in humane poultry and rabbit dispatch) and do not do it in front of other animals.

Enough about such unpleasantness - I hope all is well with you and your rabbits. Pets are wonderful :)

Thats good to hear, it must be torturous enough for the animal without it being bungled or done wrong - that is good also that you won't do it in front of the other animals.

Shellypops
09-09-2010, 05:26 PM
Thats good to hear, it must be torturous enough for the animal without it being bungled or done wrong - that is good also that you won't do it in front of the other animals.

:thumb::thumb:

DemiS
09-09-2010, 07:30 PM
Sorry to hear that you've been poorly cos of it. Do you know why it is? Like is it low iron, or something else? Do you take vitamin supplements?

Do you eat eggs? It might be an idea if you can find eggs from chickens kept in good conditions, that it might be good for you.

When I first went vegan I lost a lot of weight and was down to just over 6 stone (5'5") which wasn't too good, but thankfully I'm much healthier now and gained a stone and a half back :) . . . I think I just had to adjust to it. But I do find if I don't eat very healthily or forget to take my vitamins for a while then I do feel quite low in energy and unweell.

Yep I've been eating plenty of egg, plenty of iron rich foods. I suspect I've been anemic for a long time and the symptoms are more evident since going vegetarian.

Ambience
09-09-2010, 08:16 PM
I think it's great you raise your own animals as meat also. I think providing they have had good lifes and you slaughter them humanely- your braver than i am :)

I myself have a disgust at the current farming methods of animals, despite being a meat lover. I.e i love my bacon, beef bolognaise etc.

I too have guided myself onto a vegitarian lifestyle only very recently. This is hard, because my boyfriend was poisoned by quorn the other night and apparantely this is common, so i am gradually making the transformation.

I am happy to eat animals that are freerange and have lived a good life- outdoor reared pork etc or cow.

I don't eat rabbit meat personally- although i know this isnt' uncommon and i think it's a very admirable thing you are doing knowing where your meat comes from.

If everyone knew the cruelty behind the animals they eat- i think very few would be comfortable eating meat thereafter.

Of course we are the top predetor of the food chain and no less would i expect a cat to eat veg than i would a human.

So i would say welcome to the forum and i hope you find some great advice here on good rabbit care. You are right in it is one of the best places for animal welfare.

Unfortunately there are those would will greet you with an unhappiness on this forum, due to their personal ideas about breeding or eating meat. I wouldn't let this put you off using and learning from the forum however as it's a fantastic resource for you.

As for the does- i'd seperate them if you intend for them to keep both litters, as they are likely to become agressive and fight and possibly kill the others litter. I know of this first hand. I would say its' okay to keep together if you are up for handrearing or the loss of a possible litter, but i would keep an eye on them very closely.

Again i can't say how much i admire what you are doing- raising your own animals for meat, goes way above and beyond. We are a meat eater by nature and i think hopefully we would all evolve to a stage where we are responsible for what goes in our mouths and don't just accept the world of the supermarkets- which are part of a system which exploits animals in ways that are unimaginable.

Ambience
09-09-2010, 08:27 PM
Personally I think it's great you're raising your own meat. I'm a strict vegetarian, not because I don't like the idea of eating animals, it's because most are kept in horrible conditions. I would happily eat something knowing it had a good life, infact I'm going to start doing that soon as I've been quite poorly since going veggie :?

I have been put off by the vegetarian diet also- as it seems to be lacking in nutrition. Also quorn has alot of bad reports, even though i found it tasty. It is not quite natural how mycoprotein is extracted.

I think i'd be much happier on an outdoor raised cruelty free diet. Cruelty free- not meaning that death wouldn't come to the animal-a s it does to us all, but that the welfare was of an impeccable standard.

I love animals and i love nature and don't think there is anything wrong with a cat killing a bird- it's prey or a fox killing a rabbit- its' dinner- or a human killing another animal.

I think alot of human beings would like to thing we are above nature, and even though our spiritual consciousness is evolving and we don't like the idea of eating meat, killing animals etc.

I think the fact we are naturally pre-programmed to eat meat, means we not doing anything wrong as such- we are just playing out our natural part in the system of life. If we were not supposed to eat meat, we wouldn't have been designed this way.

VickiP
09-09-2010, 08:36 PM
I think it's great you raise your own animals as meat also. I think providing they have had good lifes and you slaughter them humanely- your braver than i am :)

I myself have a disgust at the current farming methods of animals, despite being a meat lover. I.e i love my bacon, beef bolognaise etc.

I too have guided myself onto a vegitarian lifestyle only very recently. This is hard, because my boyfriend was poisoned by quorn the other night and apparantely this is common, so i am gradually making the transformation.

I am happy to eat animals that are freerange and have lived a good life- outdoor reared pork etc or cow.

I don't eat rabbit meat personally- although i know this isnt' uncommon and i think it's a very admirable thing you are doing knowing where your meat comes from.

If everyone knew the cruelty behind the animals they eat- i think very few would be comfortable eating meat thereafter.

Of course we are the top predetor of the food chain and no less would i expect a cat to eat veg than i would a human.

So i would say welcome to the forum and i hope you find some great advice here on good rabbit care. You are right in it is one of the best places for animal welfare.

Unfortunately there are those would will greet you with an unhappiness on this forum, due to their personal ideas about breeding or eating meat. I wouldn't let this put you off using and learning from the forum however as it's a fantastic resource for you.

As for the does- i'd seperate them if you intend for them to keep both litters, as they are likely to become agressive and fight and possibly kill the others litter. I know of this first hand. I would say its' okay to keep together if you are up for handrearing or the loss of a possible litter, but i would keep an eye on them very closely.

Again i can't say how much i admire what you are doing- raising your own animals for meat, goes way above and beyond. We are a meat eater by nature and i think hopefully we would all evolve to a stage where we are responsible for what goes in our mouths and don't just accept the world of the supermarkets- which are part of a system which exploits animals in ways that are unimaginable.

Ambience, I don't think eating rabbit is common practice in the UK at all, in fact I don't know one person other than the 'breeder' I was unfortunate enough to discover who eats rabbits. I also don't know any butchers in this area who stock rabbit meat, in fact most supermarkets or retailers would not stock rabbit meat if there were no demand so whilst I think it's nice to 'understand' the concept of the UK's 3rd most popular pet being bred, killed and eaten - I don't agree with it or understand the need to do it given there are already a large number of 'meats' to eat available. Of course you have hit the nail on the head - how many people practically can have a herd of cows or a flock of sheep, pigs or even a large number of chickens with a cockerell which is required I believe in order to 'breed' chickens in their back garden ! The reason rabbits are bred for meat in back yards is usually because they are quiet, contained in very small areas and whilst it is personal choice - lets keep perspective on this.

Granted the OP has come on to look for information regarding the rabbits welfare - he has however had a two does for eleven months so has a degree of experience anyway and I haven't seen anyone jumping on him or being rude so I think the warnings about 'likely' responses are a bit unnecessary now to be honest.

I do agree that we are at the top of the food chain, not because naturally we would be but, because we have adapted things that way and control every other living animal - there are lots and lots of animals that are superior to us - we would be prey for them in fact but, we have developed weapons to protect ourselves and control other species. Naturally man is actually a weak animal in comparison to say a lion.

I personally hope that the OP is genuinely going to provide his animals with the standard required for pets so at least they are able to demonstrate the five freedoms that all animals should have - it is their right in any civilised world that we would grant them that at the very least!

Edited to add I don't know anyone who eats goat either:? I thought that was a cultural thing from countries that couldn't raise/slaughter cows?

Jack's-Jane
09-09-2010, 08:51 PM
I seriously cannot believe I am reading a thread about killing and eating Rabbits on a PET RABBIT Forum.........................


Nuff said.............

Carrie14
09-09-2010, 08:59 PM
I seriously cannot believe I am reading a thread about killing and eating Rabbits on a PET RABBIT Forum.........................


Nuff said.............

I am shocked too. I go away for a few weeks and its like this:?

I am lost for words..

Morgana
10-09-2010, 12:36 AM
I see why people would be shocked.

But to me it's not that different to if somebody made a post saying, "I'm going to have a burger for dinner", or something. Maybe I'm weird for thinking that . . . but that's how I see it.

VickiP
10-09-2010, 12:45 AM
I see why people would be shocked.

But to me it's not that different to if somebody made a post saying, "I'm going to have a burger for dinner", or something. Maybe I'm weird for thinking that . . . but that's how I see it.

I don't think it makes you weird but, you are just thinking 'meat' is meat. It's not though when we think about pet's - if someone say's they are going to eat their cat for example we are shocked, revolted even but, in some cultures that is fine. If someone says I am having a burger for dinner we know that they haven't taken the cow out of a shed in their back garden, held it by it's back legs and broken it's neck - then skinned it, chopped it up, cooked it and eaten it and then gone out to the 'other' cows and 'cared' for them. It's a very strange thing to be capable of doing and why so many farmers don't eat their own animals - let alone slaughter themselves.

Morgana
10-09-2010, 12:51 AM
I don't think it makes you weird but, you are just thinking 'meat' is meat. It's not though when we think about pet's - if someone say's they are going to eat their cat for example we are shocked, revolted even but, in some cultures that is fine. If someone says I am having a burger for dinner we know that they haven't taken the cow out of a shed in their back garden, held it by it's back legs and broken it's neck - then skinned it, chopped it up, cooked it and eaten it and then gone out to the 'other' cows and 'cared' for them. It's a very strange thing to be capable of doing and why so many farmers don't eat their own animals - let alone slaughter themselves.

Yeah I know what you mean. I wouldn't be able to slaughter an animal myself, if I did eat meat.

But I think it's easy sometimes to just buy meat and not think about where it came from.

But it's quite natural to kill animals for food. Not to raise them and then kill them . . . but to kill them yourself is natural, so not really strange. I couldn't do it though.

VickiP
10-09-2010, 01:05 AM
Yeah I know what you mean. I wouldn't be able to slaughter an animal myself, if I did eat meat.

But I think it's easy sometimes to just buy meat and not think about where it came from.

But it's quite natural to kill animals for food. Not to raise them and then kill them . . . but to kill them yourself is natural, so not really strange. I couldn't do it though.

I think it was natural when we were hunters, I don't think there is anything natural about breeding animals in captivity to kill them with your bare hands - I think it is completely unnecessary and unpleasant and whilst I accept that it is a factor to consider in terms of where and how your food is produced, I personally feel it's enough of a contribution and quite safe to source 'ethical' meat from butchers who support UK farmers in providing relatively natural lives with good welfare standards for their animals - I don't feel the need to start eating every single species of animal either because I can and I could never kill it myself, it's not a fair kill - if I had to hunt it and kill an animal or face starvation then yes, that is fair to a degree and is understandable but, not as a choice when it's not necessity.

I think anyone purchasing rabbit in say Tesco (apparently they sell frozen rabbit meat) is even worse - they clearly couldn't care two hoots about animal welfare to be selling this choice - why shouldn't we sell frozen dog for the oriental people who would like to eat it then? Why shouldn't people be allowed to breed cats for meat? Where is the line drawn?

Ambience
10-09-2010, 01:57 AM
Ambience, I don't think eating rabbit is common practice in the UK at all, in fact I don't know one person other than the 'breeder' I was unfortunate enough to discover who eats rabbits. I also don't know any butchers in this area who stock rabbit meat, in fact most supermarkets or retailers would not stock rabbit meat if there were no demand so whilst I think it's nice to 'understand' the concept of the UK's 3rd most popular pet being bred, killed and eaten - I don't agree with it or understand the need to do it given there are already a large number of 'meats' to eat available. Of course you have hit the nail on the head - how many people practically can have a herd of cows or a flock of sheep, pigs or even a large number of chickens with a cockerell which is required I believe in order to 'breed' chickens in their back garden ! The reason rabbits are bred for meat in back yards is usually because they are quiet, contained in very small areas and whilst it is personal choice - lets keep perspective on this.

Granted the OP has come on to look for information regarding the rabbits welfare - he has however had a two does for eleven months so has a degree of experience anyway and I haven't seen anyone jumping on him or being rude so I think the warnings about 'likely' responses are a bit unnecessary now to be honest.

I do agree that we are at the top of the food chain, not because naturally we would be but, because we have adapted things that way and control every other living animal - there are lots and lots of animals that are superior to us - we would be prey for them in fact but, we have developed weapons to protect ourselves and control other species. Naturally man is actually a weak animal in comparison to say a lion.

I personally hope that the OP is genuinely going to provide his animals with the standard required for pets so at least they are able to demonstrate the five freedoms that all animals should have - it is their right in any civilised world that we would grant them that at the very least!

Edited to add I don't know anyone who eats goat either:? I thought that was a cultural thing from countries that couldn't raise/slaughter cows?

Ah okay no probs. I did get fed without my knowing rabbit from my ex boyfriend- it was disgusting and full of bones. I don't believe in eating rabbits personally. I was horrified when my other half told me what he had made as i have a deep love and connection to bunnies.

However if rabbits are raised for meat purposes, rather than pets- they have not less right to be slaughtered than a cow or chicken or a sheep. I know people who own, pigs, cows and sheep which have their own personalities. Of course i don't think any animal should be killed- but it is very much how we are designed.

I think for the sake of this forum it would be better not to talk about killing rabbits for meat, as this forum is not directed in such a way. I do think though that if we can guide people to be more responsible in thier care practices before slaughter, that has got to be a good thing.

I've changed my views since seeing horrific utube videos of animal slaughter and cruelty. I think if someone is trying to be loving and caring before eating meat-(whichever meat that may be- it's honourable!)...It's honourable because so many animals we eat go to their death, without the consideration that every animal should be given and i think that to give an animal an outdoor life and some love before it is made into a burger or whatever else, is a real testament to being a good human being.

It shows we are evolving as human beings. At the moment, we fail to live upto a humane standard in our meat industry and that is very sad, which is why i condone, bringing animals up for slaughter in a less conventional home bred manor. I was considering doing this myself, but i too have no heart for slaughter.

Vicki i do empathize with your point of view, and value it deepy, i think that if you are a vegitarian then your argument holds a great amount of weight and its your personal view- however if you eat kfc, macdonalds, or even ready meals- ( as i do) - the tradgedy behind that- chickens just thrown into a grinder(alive), is unbearable, and something that has put me off meat.

On the other hand- i was born to eat meat- look at every menu in the uk- it's full of meat and animal products. The animals which don't eat meat- are normally prey- they are going to be eaten by something or another. Lions are killed by our weapons as we have the intelligance to kill them , which makes us the top predetor on the planet.

Do you know what i'm drunk now so don't listen to me :)))

Lots of love and light xx

Ambience
10-09-2010, 02:29 AM
I see why people would be shocked.

But to me it's not that different to if somebody made a post saying, "I'm going to have a burger for dinner", or something. Maybe I'm weird for thinking that . . . but that's how I see it.

Agreed- if you don't eat kfc or burgers, ready meals or anything with non free range in- then this is a proposterous argument. Cows, piggies, sheep and chickens have as much right to be here as bunnies.

Ambience
10-09-2010, 02:34 AM
I think it was natural when we were hunters, I don't think there is anything natural about breeding animals in captivity to kill them with your bare hands - I think it is completely unnecessary and unpleasant and whilst I accept that it is a factor to consider in terms of where and how your food is produced, I personally feel it's enough of a contribution and quite safe to source 'ethical' meat from butchers who support UK farmers in providing relatively natural lives with good welfare standards for their animals - I don't feel the need to start eating every single species of animal either because I can and I could never kill it myself, it's not a fair kill - if I had to hunt it and kill an animal or face starvation then yes, that is fair to a degree and is understandable but, not as a choice when it's not necessity.

I think anyone purchasing rabbit in say Tesco (apparently they sell frozen rabbit meat) is even worse - they clearly couldn't care two hoots about animal welfare to be selling this choice - why shouldn't we sell frozen dog for the oriental people who would like to eat it then? Why shouldn't people be allowed to breed cats for meat? Where is the line drawn?

I don't see a problem with selling frozen dog or cat or rabbit or human- i don't think one is above the other- obviously our country has it's philosphys and others have theirs.

I think if we started selling frozen human meat, people would open their eyes to how discusting the meat industry actually is!!!! to what we are!!! Killers. And then to maybe we could all have a proper philosophical discussion about this.

It's absolutely neccesary that we dont shelter ourselves from this so we can become better, rather than hide ourselves under clever marketing- by companies like kfc who happily throw chickens to their deaths (alive).

Ambience
10-09-2010, 02:38 AM
Meat eating runs as deeply as peoples need for survival often- you will eat anything if you have to to survive. This is the truth- anyone would.

You go to a starving person- they will eat a cat, dog, human, fish whatever- if it's life or death its amazing what brings out the human condition the most.

Total poverty and starvation, you will see some of the most prominant examples of what a human being is.

Ambience
10-09-2010, 02:45 AM
p.s i assume no responsibility for the above last posts as i am getting drunk now :)) hope noone takes offence, lots of love to you all, Love Janey xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Jack's-Jane
10-09-2010, 07:39 AM
Meat eating runs as deeply as peoples need for survival often- you will eat anything if you have to to survive. This is the truth- anyone would.

You go to a starving person- they will eat a cat, dog, human, fish whatever- if it's life or death its amazing what brings out the human condition the most.

Total poverty and starvation, you will see some of the most prominant examples of what a human being is.

I would rather die than eat the flesh of ANY animal.

jill
10-09-2010, 08:39 AM
iam a meat eater ive tryed rabbit one time :evil: i dont see the point in killing them
not enough meat on them i couldnt raise and kill my own though i love my bunnys its up to the person if they eat meat or not i respect both as long
as the animal is treated fairly before and during slaughter i dont have a problem

Becky92
10-09-2010, 08:55 AM
Prediction/HOPE of the day :

That this stupid thread gets deleted !!!!:censored:


This person has had the advice they wanted about keeping 2 breeding machines together and is just upsetting the forum

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY is this allowed to be discussed

This person is admittingly going to EAT her rabbits

There are places for this time of person - slaughter forums ect. personally i would say they belong in prison.


So as im being careful what i say - from me , from my rabbit here and rabbits everywhere...

Please do the world a favour and

JOG ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fluffiebunnie
10-09-2010, 09:07 AM
I seriously cannot believe I am reading a thread about killing and eating Rabbits on a PET RABBIT Forum.........................


Nuff said.............


Agreed. Completely out of order.

KarenM
10-09-2010, 09:30 AM
I realise feelings run high on this one, and I don't want to upset people on here who I have great respect for.

To be fair to the OP he/she only stated they were breeding for meat in response to a question asked right near the beginning of the thread. Ok, so maybe he/she should have told a white lie and pretended they were going to be pets but if you're not going to like the answer, then why ask the question?

minirex
10-09-2010, 09:37 AM
Prediction/HOPE of the day :

That this stupid thread gets deleted !!!!:censored:


This person has had the advice they wanted about keeping 2 breeding machines together and is just upsetting the forum

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY is this allowed to be discussed

This person is admittingly going to EAT her rabbits

There are places for this time of person - slaughter forums ect. personally i would say they belong in prison.
So as im being careful what i say - from me , from my rabbit here and rabbits everywhere...

Please do the world a favour and

JOG ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So are you going to send all the farmers and meat eaters to prison too?
If you don't like what is in a thread you don't have to read it or post on it.