Teddy_not good news-kidney advice please!

hi all
some of you may remember that teddy went into stasis at the weekend and had bad dioreah. He was doing better but not quite right in himself and wondered if it could be his teeth as he suffers with molar spurs. I asked my vet to have a look today and if they were o.k to do a blood test as i know he isn't himself.
Haven't spoken to my vet as he had to leave early but the vet nurse filled me in and i will discuss it in more length next week with my vet and get a copy of the blood results.
Teddys teeth were fine so they did a blood test and She said his kidney levels were very high and that he was in a chronic condition. I have never had a problem with kidneys before so would appreciate any info anyone can give. I am getting some research together and a plan! i know we can only give him supportive care but I want to do my very best for him.
My vet has not experienced it with rabbits either and is willing to listen to any ideas i have. It does fit in with his symptoms of loss of appetite and weight lost and he has been very lethargic this week.
He is at least 8 years old and was very neglected before i rescued him 3 years ago. he has his dental issues and bad arthritus.

questions
1. he needs a low calcium diet..am i right? i think i have a list of low calcium foods and he already eats oxbow t pellets which are lower in calcium.
2. Metacam? he has that for his arthritus and i know thats not good with kidneys...is there other pain relief i can use?
3. more water is essential and i have heard people say adding fruit juice can tempt them to drink more...is that right? and what juice is best?
4. Dandelion tincture? i read in a book that can help..anyone tried it?
5. are there any medications or herbal remidies that can help?


any advice would be gratefully recieved.

Sorry to hear about Teddy

I have no personal experience with kidney buns but I would assume a low oxalate diet would also be on the cards along with low calcium just to be on the safe side.

Non-steroidals like metacam can take their toll on the kidneys/liver with long-term use sadly, however, the only other pain relief suitable for rabbits really are opiates (such as vetergesic) which make bun very sleepy and are not really for long term use as far as i'm aware, I suspect there are tolerance and dependence issues as there are with other opiates used longterm - the human equivalent of course being morphine. Or steroids (cortico) of which buns are very susceptible to the side-effects and really can only be used as a last resort.

How were his liver enzymes? Some sow thistle/milk thistle might be helpful if they are elevated.

Have you tried supplementing his NSAID with glucosamine for his arthritis? We've recently started Nino on glucosamine alongside the metacam in the hopes that as it begins to take effect we can lower the metacam daily dose to protect his kidneys for longer.
I hope Teddy is ok.

thanks for your advice! will have to ask about liver levels but they didn't mention it. You say Oxolate..sorry not sure what that is and what kinds of foods comtain it?
I have recently beed looking at glucosimine for his arthritus and will definately be doing it now. can I ask which you use as i wasn't sure which to get.
He has spondolosis in his spine as well as the arthritus in his legs but its not really bad at present although it was worse last winter. He only has metacam now and then and not on it constant.

awww sending teddy vibes

I found this post when I first joined and saved it in my favourites but it's a list of fruit and veg with their calcium amounts per 100g

309 mg -- Lambs quarters
210 mg -- Spinach, Mustard
208 mg -- Dill Weed
190 mg -- Turnip Greens
187 mg -- Dandelion Greens
145 mg -- Collards
138 mg -- Parsley
135 mg -- Kale
120 mg -- Watercress
119 mg -- Beet Greens
105 mg -- Chinese Cabbage (pak-choi)
103 mg -- Mustard Greens
100 mg -- Chicory Greens
99 mg -- Spinach
81 mg -- Okra
68 mg -- Lettuce, LooseLeaf
67 mg -- Cilantro
65 mg -- Purslane
52 mg -- Endive
51 mg -- Swiss Chard
51 mg -- Chard, Swiss
48 mg -- Broccoli
47 mg -- Cabbage
47 mg -- Rutabaga
42 mg -- Brussels Sprouts
40 mg -- Celery
37 mg -- Sweet Potato Leaves
37 mg -- Green Beans
36 mg -- Lettuce, Romaine
36 mg -- Parsnips
32 mg -- Lettuce, Butterhead (Boston, Bibb)
32 mg -- Alfalfa Sprouts
31 mg -- Squash (winter, all varieties)
30 mg -- Turnip
27 mg -- Carrots
24 mg -- Kohlrabi
23 mg -- Carrots, Baby
22 mg -- Sweet Potato
22 mg -- Cauliflower
21 mg -- Asparagus
21 mg -- Pumpkin
20 mg -- Squash (summer, all varieties)
19 mg -- Endive, Belgian (Witloof Chicory)
16 mg -- Beets
14 mg -- Cucumber (with skin)
9 mg -- Peppers,Red
9 mg -- Peppers,Green
5 mg -- Tomato
2 mg -- Corn, White

CALCIUM per 100 gram -- Fruits

49 mg -- Raisins, Seedless
40 mg -- Orange
33 mg -- Lime
32 mg -- Blackberries
26 mg -- Kiwi
26 mg -- Lemon (no peel)
24 mg -- Papaya
22 mg -- Raspberries
15 mg -- Cherries, Sweet
14 mg -- Strawberries
14 mg -- Tangerine
14 mg -- Apricots
12 mg -- Grapefruit, White
11 mg -- Grapefruit, Pink and Red
11 mg -- Pear
11 mg -- Cantaloupe
11 mg -- Grapes
10 mg -- Mango
8 mg -- Watermelon
8 mg -- Persimmon, Japanese
7 mg -- Pineapple
7 mg -- Apple (with Skin)
7 mg -- Cranberries
6 mg -- Banana
6 mg -- Honeydew Melon
6 mg -- Blueberries
5 mg -- Casaba Melon
5 mg -- Nectarine
5 mg -- Peach
4 mg -- Plum
:wave::wave:.

Sorry to hear the latest about Teddy. He's a lucky boy to have such a caring bunny mummy who will make sure he gets the best of care.

thanks Smoo!! thats just what i need!!

thanks susan for your wishes and glad you got your parcel o.k!

No probs!! I was looking at things that are ok to feed buns and came across this and though i'll keep hold of it!

sorry to hear of teddys condition

i hope some help can be found very soon.

wow thank you for that foods list..im saving that!

fingers crossed xx

The Buns I have cared for who have had chronic renal failure were treated with anabolic steroid injections, multi-vitamin injections and fluid therapy (when required). Their diet was modified - minimise calcium intake and restrict phosphates (no carrots, bananas or tomatoes)

A drug called an ACE inhibitor, eg Fortekor, may also be useful. It can reduce the blood pressure thus reducing the 'filtering' workload of the kidneys.

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Nov...td/Fortekor_2_5_for_Cats_and_Dogs/-46123.html



EC can be a cause of chronic reanl failure, so this should be taken into account if there are other 'in contact' Rabbits.

For analgesia NSAIDS are best avoided, an opiate based drug is probably a safer option.

Jack's-Jane said:

The Buns I have cared for who have had chronic renal failure were treated with anabolic steroid injections, multi-vitamin injections and fluid therapy (when required). Their diet was modified - minimise calcium intake and restrict phosphates (no carrots, bananas or tomatoes)

A drug called an ACE inhibitor, eg Fortekor, may also be useful. It can reduce the blood pressure thus reducing the 'filtering' workload of the kidneys.

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Nov...td/Fortekor_2_5_for_Cats_and_Dogs/-46123.html



EC can be a cause of chronic reanl failure, so this should be taken into account if there are other 'in contact' Rabbits.

For analgesia NSAIDS are best avoided, an opiate based drug is probably a safer option.

Click to expand...

:thumb:

Very useful to know thank you. Lisa hope that helps. Yes I meant to say cut out any high phosphate veg alongside calcium and oxalates. An ACE inhibitor would make a lot of sense to reduce the load. I had no idea you could use anabolic steroids for this. (Putting all this away in my brain for future ref)

The glucosamine we are using for Nino is Synoquin Cat (about £60 for 3 months supply capsules from vet, but have found Vet UK do it almost half price). They are large capsules which we open and mush into a small piece of banana, however, as Jane says bananas are high in potassium so this would not be a suitable medicine medium for Teddy. I have experimented with liquid but the powder is not water soluble. Mixing it with a little CC if Teddy likes that might work better for him. We have certainly found it has improved his mobility since we started the glucosamine. Hoping then to cut down the NSAID dose - obviously for Teddy he may need to come off this and as NSAID's are the only thing that really help arthritic joints/spondylosis it would be good to find an alternative thing to help with this - so I def suggest trying the glucosamine asap if your vet agrees. There is a thread on it's use for Nino in Health.

I do hope that Teddy can be made comfortable for his final years. x

Lisa, would it be worth getting your vet to get an opinion on alternative meds etc from the Rabbit Clinic at Bristol Vet Hospital. You wouldn't have to take him there, but he could certainly ask via email or fax, if they could recommend a different course.

The Buns I have cared for who have had chronic renal failure were treated with anabolic steroid injections, multi-vitamin injections and fluid therapy (when required). Their diet was modified - minimise calcium intake and restrict phosphates (no carrots, bananas or tomatoes)

A drug called an ACE inhibitor, eg Fortekor, may also be useful. It can reduce the blood pressure thus reducing the 'filtering' workload of the kidneys.

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Nova...gs/-46123.html



EC can be a cause of chronic reanl failure, so this should be taken into account if there are other 'in contact' Rabbits.

For analgesia NSAIDS are best avoided, an opiate based drug is probably a safer option.
__________________

Click to expand...

thanks Jane!
couple of questions
1.Have you used Fortekor? i can#t seem to find any reference to it being used in rabbits
2. as teddy is a dental bunny some foods he just cant eat so i am struggling to find veggies that would be good for him. he currently has grated carrot(which he loves) kale, brocooli ...so thats NOT good for him!! Is carrot very high do you know and would a small amount be o.k? I do feed him hebs but i know parsleys not good so can cut that out. I do feed him alot of plants from the garden but with winter approacing thats going to be tricky! he doesn't seem to like them as much dried.

The glucosamine we are using for Nino is Synoquin Cat (about £60 for 3 months supply capsules from vet, but have found Vet UK do it almost half price). They are large capsules which we open and mush into a small piece of banana, however, as Jane says bananas are high in potassium so this would not be a suitable medicine medium for Teddy. I have experimented with liquid but the powder is not water soluble. Mixing it with a little CC if Teddy likes that might work better for him. We have certainly found it has improved his mobility since we started the glucosamine. Hoping then to cut down the NSAID dose - obviously for Teddy he may need to come off this and as NSAID's are the only thing that really help arthritic joints/spondylosis it would be good to find an alternative thing to help with this - so I def suggest trying the glucosamine asap if your vet agrees. There is a thread on it's use for Nino in Health.

I do hope that Teddy can be made comfortable for his final years.

Click to expand...

thats great thansk! shall order some now. he does eat cc so that might be a good option. Can I ask dosage you use please...teddy is approx 2kg.

Lisa, would it be worth getting your vet to get an opinion on alternative meds etc from the Rabbit Clinic at Bristol Vet Hospital. You wouldn't have to take him there, but he could certainly ask via email or fax, if they could recommend a different course.

Click to expand...

I have thought about confering with someone although i have got alot of good info so far so if i need more info its definately a good option

bunny mad lisa said:

thats great thansk! shall order some now. he does eat cc so that might be a good option. Can I ask dosage you use please...teddy is approx 2kg.

Click to expand...

Yep, Nino has one synoquin cat capsule per day. This is the standard cat dose and as there is little research on using it for buns the protocol appears to be using it at cat dose - both rabbit-savy vets at my clinic agreed with this. There is quite a substantial amount of powder in each capsule! I will check the capsule size for you tomorrow as am upstairs now ready for bed!

bunny mad lisa said:

thanks Jane!
couple of questions
1.Have you used Fortekor? i can#t seem to find any reference to it being used in rabbits
2. as teddy is a dental bunny some foods he just cant eat so i am struggling to find veggies that would be good for him. he currently has grated carrot(which he loves) kale, brocooli ...so thats NOT good for him!! Is carrot very high do you know and would a small amount be o.k? I do feed him hebs but i know parsleys not good so can cut that out. I do feed him alot of plants from the garden but with winter approacing thats going to be tricky! he doesn't seem to like them as much dried.

Click to expand...

Yes, I have had a few Rabbits on Fortekor. Like so many Drugs it is not licensed for use in Rabbits.....just like Metacam isnt, or most antibiotics apart from Baytril !! This does NOT mean the drugs are not 'safe' Just that there has not been the funding needed to go through the testing necessary testing criteria to get a drug licensed for a specific species. If Vets could only use licensed meds for Buns they would be stuck !!

Vets do have to follow the prescribing cascade, but they CAN prescribe 'off licence'

http://www.bsava.com/Advice/BSAVAGu...gcascadeandofflabeluse/tabid/360/Default.aspx

Re his diet, I would avoid carrot if at all possible. Or maybe just feed a small amount once a week

I have just found this.............

http://www.vetline.es/diets-rabbits-detoxication.html

Never seen it before :?