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Urine Infection

Wuezybun

Warren Scout
My two and a half year old bunny Smudge is suffering with what seemed to be a recurrent urine infection. We are about to take him to the vets for the third time but I was wondering if anybody has any advice to help us decide on the way forward?

Back in June we noticed he was wet and urine stained underneath and the vets put him on a week of Baytril and Metacam. We were also washing him daily with hibiscrub.

When he came off the medication he was initially fine but about 3 weeks ago he got urine stained again and we went back to the vets who prescribed a longer period on Bayril and Metacam. He came off that about a week ago and again was happy until today when we have noticed in addition to being wet he seems to have signs of blood in the form of a scab coming out of his penis.

The vet discussed giving him an ultrasound to see if there are any signs of calcium deposits in his bladder or kidneys. She couldn't feel any when she checked him out before.

The baytril and/or Metacam did seem to help but I was wondering how long rabbits should stay on that for?

Thanks in advance on behalf of poorly Smudge.
 
Thank you.. I'm really not used to seeing him upset like this as he's normally my healthy bunny. I hope we'll be able to work out a way to help him..
 
:wave: Yes, your vet is going about this the right way. Poor Smudge could either have calcium sludge or a bladder stone so he can't empty his bladder properly. This could be predisposing him to repeated infections or causing the same symptoms in it's own right.

There is a difference of opinion on the forum, but depite the difficulties, I think it's helpful to send a specimen of his urine for C&S to see exactly which bacteria are causing the infection, & also to look at it under the microscope for crystals. The vet can obtain a urine specimen by pressing gently over the bladder.

Please keep us updated with Smudges progress. We can help you a bit more when he has a firm diagnosis.
In the meantime every thing crossed for your little fella.
 
Thanks for your advice. We've got him back on the metacam and baytril until we go to see the vet on Friday and he has improved already.

I'm not sure whether it's a calcium issue because his pee is very dark and not sludgy. I do wonder whether he has some other problem or injury but hopefully the vet can help us work that out.
 
Everything crossed for Fri.
I'm hoping for something easy to treat.

You won't be able to do a C&S while Smudge is on antibiotics.

You asked how long buns can be on antibiotics for. Basically indefinately, but the problem is the same as with humans that the bacteria tend to get resistance to the antibiotics over time.
 
Smudge is much better now he's back on the metacam and baytril. He's booked in for an xray next Friday and fingers crossed he'll be able to have that without an anesthetic. The vet still thinks that it could be a calcium stone even though his pee isn't very white.

The problem then will be what to do if the vet does find a stone. Does anybody on here have experience of the surgery to remove stones? It seems a big operation for a rabbit.
 
:wave:Calcium -(chalk) in the bladder can cause a problem in 2 main forms.

a)"Sludge" is microscopic clumps of crystals, which are gritty, & like toothpaste or thick cream in consistency. When the bun wees there's white wee. It's like trying to wee white mud! The bladder slowly fills up with it so there's less room for the urine.
A vet can pass a fine tube from the outside into the bladder & flush out the bladder - water in - thin down the "mud" by gentle massage- suck it out, basically.

b) "Stone". This is much harder, & bigger- you can see them, there may only be 1 or a few. They often start round some damaged calls. The wee is usually clear, & the calcium only crystallizes out round the stone which gets bigger in time. The stone can roll around the bladder so when the bun wees it can roll over the exit of the bladder & act like a valve.
It's too big to get out of the exit of the bladder. (no crossed legs emoticon). Sometimes they start to form further up in the kidneys.

Stone is much less common than sludge, but yes buns have had very successful operations for it in good hands. They don't have to cut the bowel, & the bladder is right on top near the surface so they're not disturbing other organs.
Your bun is in with a very good chance indeed which ever bladder issue he has.
I'll try to find a thread for you.
ETA http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=199139&highlight=bladder+stone&page=2
 
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Thanks for that. I found this article which explains it too:

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/bladder-disease.html

The picture of the 1/2 inch stone which the poor rabbit apparently managed to pee out really makes me wince with pain and search for the crossed legs emoticon.

I seem to remember seeing a small animal (an otter maybe) on that Animal Park programme which has an xray and then an unbelievably large stone removed, so that was quite educational.
 
Thanks for that. I found this article which explains it too:

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/bladder-disease.html

The picture of the 1/2 inch stone which the poor rabbit apparently managed to pee out really makes me wince with pain and search for the crossed legs emoticon.

I seem to remember seeing a small animal (an otter maybe) on that Animal Park programme which has an xray and then an unbelievably large stone removed, so that was quite educational.

That's a good link. I'll have everything crossed for Smudge. Please keep us updated.
 
Smudge went in to the vets this morning to have his urine infection further investigated and the vet has just called me back and it seems that Smudge does have Sludge!

In some ways I'm relieved that he won't be having an operation but I wonder how much we can improve him with just diet change as we've been doing that for the last few weeks with little improvement.

Anyway, they are still trying to get a urine sample out of him as I failed to get anything last night. I think that is part of problem, he really doesn't drink enough to flush his system through.
 
I'm relieved that Smudge doesn't need an op.
Yes, I've got a bun who doesn't drink, & gets intermittant sludge issues as a result.

There are 2 main aspects: reducing calcium intake AND increasing fluid intake. Some buns prefer a bowl to a bottle & vice versa.
There's a good list of the calcium content in foods in the diet section. It's measured in dry weight.

You may get some ideas from my thread http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=198469&highlight=buck+urination. We found that my bun doesn't drink because of tiny spikes on his back teeth. Smudge couls well be different but we have to tackle the same issue.

Lilbun gives a very useful reference to herbs. I use fresh wild weeds a lot but with care - dandelions are a strong diuretic (make them wee more) greater plantain less so.
I don't recommend wild chervil unless you really know your plants very well. It's so easily confused with other "umbelliferae" many of which are bad for buns & hemlock is deadly poisonous. It's a strong diuretic, with an "unfortunate" side effect in some buns. :oops:
We have to be very careful that our buns don't dehydrate with diuretic plants & only give them sparingly.

Cucumber, & Romain / round lettuce (Not iceberg) have a high water content, & are low in nutrients/starch/sugar so they are useful, as are some cooking herbs (not parsley)

I'll try to get a good link for sludge for you. :wave:

ETA frequent excercise is very important too, even a digging box. It stops the sludge fom settling out in the bladder base so much, so it's easier to pee.
It's painful for a bun to pee sludge, like peeing grit would be like for us.
 
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Thanks for the info :wave:

Just been to collect Smudge. The vet gave up trying to get urine out of him at about 3pm and then on the way home in his carrier he has done a huge pee. I'm sure he's been holding it in since last night!

The vet gave me a data sheet saying what I should feed and what I shouldn't. It's mainly what I've found out already on the internet but it's still useful. They recommend excel pellets and I've been giving the mature excel with cranberry for good urinary tract health. It's meant for rabbits who are 5+ and he's only nearly 3 so I feel a bit like I'm treating him like he's an old codger!

The vet gave me baytril and metacam but we decided to try another break with the baytril as he's not too bad at the minute so we're trying to avoid him getting resistant to antibiotics.

I'm going to have a go at syringing water into him but the vet told me to be really careful to make sure he doesn't inhale it.

So, we have a plan and it's good to know what the problem is. Just a shame that he's not going to be able to eat his favourite veg again :(
 
:wave: Hi. You seem to have all the info which is good.
Everything crossed that it works out for you both.

I'm really impressed that your vet is addressing the fluid intake. If you put the syringe in the gap between the front & back teeth & ALWAYS keep the nozzel ponting across the mouth (towards the other side), fill the mouth at a gentle even pace so he can swallow easily & doesn't flood, you'll be fine. My own bun prefers that I keep the syringe well to the front of the gap.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Smudge had hung onto his wee. Mind if I was peeing sharp grit I would want to do it as little as possible, & hang on.
Bunnies are amazing!
 
Thanks for the tips for syringing water. When Smudge takes his medicine now he licks it off the syringe so I'm hoping I can persuade him to do that with water. I might try to put a little bit of cranberry juice in it to tempt him.

I've also been impressed with my vet as she isn't the practice 'exotics specialist' who has been on holiday. The one we have seen is new and straight out of vet school but seems to know quite a bit about rabbits.
 
I'm impressed too. It could be that she went to an exotics center as a student "elective" & learned about buns there.
I'm really pleased you've had some good advice & care.
 
It just occurred to me I don't know how much water a rabbit should be drinking per day? I just got 3ml into Smudge (2.5kg dwarf lop) which although it isn't much was really just a start at getting him to take water from the syringe. He did also have a big drink from his bowl when he got back fro the vets.
 
It's said to be 100ml per kilo. but buns get a lot of their fluids from fresh food, especially if given newly washed. It's very variable.
You can increase fluid intake by spraying their hay with water from a new plant sprayer too.

I'm a bit rabbit poop obsessed. If Smudges poops are brick hard, he needs more fluids. If they are squeezable, you aren't far off the mark.
The other evidence is the frequency you have to clean the lime scale off the litter tray. The longer you can go without needing to do it, the better.

(I'm sorry to smile but Smudge sounds so much like my bun. He had fluids injected under his skin (subcutaneously /sub Q) As soon as he got home he made a bee line for his bowl & drank masses as if to say "I'm perfectly capable of drinking normally when I want to". At the time he only drank every 3 months :shock:)

I think you should aim to get Smudge weeing more often. That'll stop the sludge building up so much. It'll take a while for him to adapt.
 
Blimey, that is a heck of a lot of fluid! I think I'll just ramp him up gradually. Part of the problem is that he is a house rabbit and so doesn't get moisture from grass and he does eat a lot of hay.

His poos are healthy looking though, certainly compared to Suzi who is a stasis prone bun and does much smaller poos. Smudge has only gone into stasis once in his life, just before this bladder problem flared up in June, and generally has a really good appetite, especially for all the things he can't eat now (dandelions, carrot tops, parsley, kale...:cry:) It's difficult to tell how much pee comes from which rabbit but I do notice that there is a lot less pee in their litter tray than my foster bunnies tray.

I've been reading about Thumper on the other threads and he seems a lovely little character :love:
 
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