Losing Weight and Squishy Poos U/D post 49, 12th Aug

Will try and keep this as brief as possible.

Around the end of April, Paddy and Benji had some grass from the garden and since then, Benji's poos have been quite soft, dark and squidgy. It is definitely the faecal droppings, not caecotrophes, which are the problem. They have had no veg for a couple of months and only get a small bowl of SS pellets in the morning, so they have been eating mostly hay for about 2 months. I bought some Pro-C probiotic which I added to their water, but it didn't seem to make much difference.

Other than soft poos, they have both been behaving normally - lively, keen for their food, etc. However, we have noticed that Benji has been losing weight for the last 5 or 6 weeks. He was 1.8kg when we got him (end of February) and is now 1.5kg.

We have been seeing the vet and he has been having Protexin Pro-Fibre pellets (a tablespoon once a day) for the last 3 weeks. He's still not putting on any weight and is quite skinny. He is still perky and very keen for hay and pellets - he wolfs them down, so I don't really think he has dental problems.

He's to go back to the vet in a week, and she is talking about taking faecal samples and blood tests.

I suggested to our vet we give Benji a little porridge every day as I know it is good for weight gain, but she wasn't keen on that as she said it can ferment in the stomach and cause more problems if the tummy is a bit delicate to start with. :?

(Just to add, we have just started a 28-day course of Panacur, as they haven't been done since we got them. They've only been having it for 3 days so far).

I'm quite worried about him and I'd be grateful if anyone has any thoughts about the weight loss and what to do about it. Thanks in advance. :wave:

Is he drinking lots?

Has your vet considered liver problems? A blood test might help.

Sending vibes for Benji, hope it turns out to be something simple

Thanks for your reply and vibes.

I'd say he's drinking an average amount really - difficult to say accurately when there's 2 bunnies living together!

I will keep your suggestion about liver problems in mind to mention to the vet.

Please excuse me for being graphic, the reason for it is to work out what's going on. I may have met this problem before, with a caecum that doesn't work properly.
Do the waste poops have an outer covering of dark material, & pure fiber in the middle?
By squidgy, do you mean that they flatten when squeezed & a small amount of water comes out, or do they lose all shape, & have no fiber inside at all?
Are the waste poops a normal round shape, or are they pointed at 1 end like a tear drop?
Have there been any large balls of waste poops held together by mucus & caec. material?

There are other things to consider too.

Thank you so much for replying.

Do not worry about being graphic, I shall be graphic too in order to better explain the problem!

I should say that Benji's poos are not all problematic; some of them are more normal, though dark and small. The 'squidgy' waste poops are quite loose and squashy and damp, not really formed into a shape. Sometimes he'll leave a little heap of matter like this in his tray. There is fibre in it though; it doesn't look like caecal matter or like mucus. There are also sometimes brown liquidy stains on their fleece - not massive, but just as if a little liquid has leaked out.

His poos have improved very slightly over the last few weeks I would say - there are not quite so many unformed squashy ones. But the weight loss has increased unfortunately.

I hope that's helpful - I will photograph and post (if no-one minds!) any unusual ones that he does over the next day or two.

When you mention poos pointed at one end like a teardrop - that definitely rings a bell, as I have seen some like that too.

what does the lots of little ones stuck together mean? treacle does those sometimes

blue_vix said:

what does the lots of little ones stuck together mean? treacle does those sometimes

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If they're black, like a tiny bunch of grapes, totally squishy between something like cling film, a if made of black mud - they're caecotrophs,which your bun would normally eat. There's a smell to them a bit musky, & your bun will only eat them if they smell right!! So changes in diet, medication, or sometimes too rich a diet can do it.

Rosie Rabbit said:

Thank you so much for replying.

Do not worry about being graphic, I shall be graphic too in order to better explain the problem!

I should say that Benji's poos are not all problematic; some of them are more normal, though dark and small. The 'squidgy' waste poops are quite loose and squashy and damp, not really formed into a shape. Sometimes he'll leave a little heap of matter like this in his tray. There is fibre in it though; it doesn't look like caecal matter or like mucus. There are also sometimes brown liquidy stains on their fleece - not massive, but just as if a little liquid has leaked out.

His poos have improved very slightly over the last few weeks I would say - there are not quite so many unformed squashy ones. But the weight loss has increased unfortunately.

I hope that's helpful - I will photograph and post (if no-one minds!) any unusual ones that he does over the next day or two.

When you mention poos pointed at one end like a teardrop - that definitely rings a bell, as I have seen some like that too.

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Please post a photo it would be very helpful indeed.
Are the abnormal poos disgustingly smelly - not normal musky caec. smell?
I'm wondering if the 1st. part of the colon isn't working properly, & possibly caecum.
The 1st. part of the colon moves the food such that the large waste fibers end up in the center & the fine particle nutrients are pushed into little pouches called haustrae at the sides. Normally the waste moves forward water is absorbed, & out. Then the 1st. part of the colon empties the pouches & propels the nutrients in reverse, into the caecum for bacterial release of the nutrients & some absorbtion through the caecal walls. The caecum should empty when no waste poos are in the colon, so we get the caecotrophs which the buns need to eat.

I do not have the experience of a bun with liver problems like Hugo's there. [She takes in buns who cannot be rehomed because of severe health issues & usually older buns.]

Several metabolic issues can cause malfunctioning of the gut.
There's also coccidiosis. Hoppit! has 2 buns who had that & will help you with that aspect I'm sure.
I'm more used to caecal overgrowth of the wrong bacteria, which release toxins which slow down the gut even more. The underlying issue with us is a very sluggish caecum.
We've had poos like this in the past but they were very smelly.

I think that the bloods are important.
An ultrasound doesn't need a GA & actually shows how well the gut is moving, especially the caecum which lies nearer the surface than the rest of the gut. It would be a good next step if all comes back negative.

I suggest you feed him some fresh blackberry leaves. My own vet is a good rabbit vet, & assures me that they can't do any harm. They are a natural gut stimulant, & help my bun a lot. Any hedge away from a busy road is a good place to look, country park, any wasteland, or allotment hedges. They are just as effective dried. As a rule of thumb, if he goes crackers for them he's got a caecal /colon problem, if not the basic problem is more likely to be elsewhere.

#sorry to hear this about our boys...Give him a hug for me please ..Not sure what to suggest ..Strange the weight lost if anything i can do let me know

sending loads of vibes, hope you get some answers soon xxxx

Not got any suggestions Im afraid, just wanted to send the little guy vibes xxxx

Debbie, Donna and Gemma - thank you for your vibes. :wave:

Thumps - thank you so much for your post, it's very interesting.

I wish I had taken a photograph of some of the problematic poops before now - Benji hasn't done any of the squishy ones for a couple of days! If there are any more, I will certainly post a photo. The strange thing is that, having smelled them when they did appear , I remember thinking that they were not really smelly at all. I suppose they were like normal fibrous faecal poops but with more liquid mixed in - so they came out like a sloppy, unformed mush.

I managed to get hold of some fresh blackberry leaves and he has eaten half of one, though he didn't exactly go mad for it.

I think when we see the vet next Tuesday she will suggest doing bloods and I will certainly keep in mind the points raised here. Many thanks again for your input.

How is Benji doing? Best of luck with the vet appointment.

Yes good luck for tomorrow & please keep us updated.

Did he ever have a faecal sample tested? I wonder whether he picked up a mild strain of coccidia from the grass, as this can cause changes to poos and weight loss. Some strains can be fatal but others can be self-limiting, so it could be a possibility and now his body is overcoming the infection so he is improving again. Just a thought.

Santa said:

Did he ever have a faecal sample tested? I wonder whether he picked up a mild strain of coccidia from the grass, as this can cause changes to poos and weight loss. Some strains can be fatal but others can be self-limiting, so it could be a possibility and now his body is overcoming the infection so he is improving again. Just a thought.

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Forgive me for a brief hi jack. Santa, I once heard that many buns carry benign coccidia, but it's not causing issues a bit like EC. If that is true, do you know how we can tell the difference? Also do you know how coccidia affects the gut, & which part is primarily affected?
ETA That is a very good point.

Hello Thumps! Yes I believe that is true in much the same way as EC or even pasteurella. Presumably it either flares up suddenly if the bun becomes 'under the weather' or if environmental circumstances cause a build-up (.e.g the bun reinfects itself heavily through eating excessively contaminated grass/hay etc), as well as potentially causing problems if it is passed to another bun.

My understanding is that rabbits become immune to any strain that they have had an illness with, which potentially could mean that you have a 'healthy' bun carrying a serious strain of the illness so in itself the bun is fine but it could pass it to other rabbits. Most strains are fairly self-limiting low-level infections, they tend to only cause serious problems if it's a very aggressive strain (like the hepatic one) and/or if the buns are young before their guts have fully developed with the right pH.

I don't know exactly how it affects the gut (or liver/bile ducts in the case of the hepatic one) or indeed if different strains affect different parts of the gut. I do know it can be a pain to isolate though and because it is naturally present, just finding it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the cause of a problem - in much the same way that an EC blood test doesn't necessarily tell you that a current illness is caused by EC.

From what i've gleaned from our rabbit-savy vet when he was in the country, as Nino had coccidia infection when he was little at the RSPCA from infected grass (they lost them all but him) the intestinal coccidia infection causes inflammation of the mucosa which can then obviously lead to scarring and long term issues in this respect - something we've often suspected as a contributing factor in Nino's ongoing chronic non-obstructive ileus.

I am wondering if it causes villus atrophy much like other intestinal parasites also? :? But only transitory of course whilst the infection is active - if this were true, and it's only my guessing, then it would disturb absorption of water and nutrients or specific ones only through the bowel wall - much as does say the protozoal infection of Giardia in humans and other species.
As well as an acute diarrhoea of course.

Thank you so much Santa & pretty lupin. Wow between you that must be the total knowledge about coccidia. I can add a small bit about depressed immune system in buns. Most of the factors which cause stasis (except diet) especially pain/ stress of any type (including moulting/ heat/rapid temp fluctuations - cold) depress the WBC. Ileus itself does so very significantly.

thumps_ said:

Forgive me for a brief hi jack. Santa, I once heard that many buns carry benign coccidia, but it's not causing issues a bit like EC. If that is true, do you know how we can tell the difference? Also do you know how coccidia affects the gut, & which part is primarily affected?
ETA That is a very good point.

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If you have a copy of Richard Saunders book on internal medicine there is a table on page 180 of all the different strains of coccidia affecting rabbits and which areas they affect.

When Roxy had coccidiosis x-rays revealed a large build up of gas in her caecum. She was never ill in herself and continued to eat through out. She had diarrhoea for under 24 hours and was a little tender in her abdomen but that was it

ETA if you don't have a copy and would like the info I don't mind typing it out for you when I have a few spare minutes