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Is anyone else concerned? - Stasis treatment

T

thumps_

Wise Old Thumper
Is any one else concerned that a few buns in stasis have been given baytril (Antibiotic) by mouth when there is no evidence of infection?
Also despite the hot weather, these buns do not seem to be getting help with hydration issues.

Not only am I not a vet, but I could not even examine a bunny. Far be it from me to tell a vet what to do - truely.

But I think I have grasped the basic principals of treating stasis, & the pitfalls.
As I understand it there is a potential for oral ABx to further destabilise the intestinal flora, & make the stasis worse except in a VERY few very RARE situations. It is after all a life threatening condition.
Bunny mummies cannot be expected to know about stasis when it happens for the 1st. time.

What do others think? and what can we do about it on here?
 
I don't think you need to be too worried about oral baytril being given...My vet often gives it if she can't find a definite cause for stasis, and I've never known it make the problem worse.

I agree that hydration is need, and importantly sub-cut or IV fluids rather than oral. Works like magic in cases of impaction.
 
I agree Judy. When the emergency vet gave esme baytril recently for no apparent reason, my own vet next day said not to give her any more-she needed stasis treatments and the option of any food that would get her eating rather than an unnecessary abx - in this situation - that may upset her gut flora and potentially make matters worse.
 
If my vet had not offered baytril for Doodee yesterday I would have hauled him over the table until he did.

She was one very sick very distressed anorexic bun and do bear in mind my other rogue had gone off her food in a very similar way and was very poorly a few days ago with yet another infection.


It was not oral it was injected along with metacam and drugs to get her gut moving again. If stasis had been for longer than 12 hours she would have been in critical care on a drip I had her provisonally bokked to be in at 1.30pm if she wa snot drinking.

It was the flaming oral science recovery food he prescribed that caused a heap of grief- for me- I just about still have fingers.:lol:
 
Tracybeakersisland, I am noted on this forum for not criticising severely.
Your original post on your thread was unclear about the situation, of exposure to recent infection.
This is not usual in stasis situations.
You may also be aware that my own bun has a condition of gradual destruction of the nerve supply to his gut, has had epiodes of stasis about every 6 weeks throughout most of his 5 year life, has had no functioning caecum for 7 months, & is terminally ill.
At no point do I say ABx should NEVER be given for stasis, just that there should be a clear indication to do so.
There are general principals of treatment & individual exceptions to the rule.
I was trrying to address general principals.
ETA a course of oral ABx given my bun's condition could kill him.
 
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Tracybeakerisland said:
If my vet had not offered baytril for Doodee yesterday I would have hauled him over the table until he did.

She was one very sick very distressed anorexic bun and do bear in mind my other rogue had gone off her food in a very similar way and was very poorly a few days ago with yet another infection.


It was not oral it was injected along with metacam and drugs to get her gut moving again. If stasis had been for longer than 12 hours she would have been in critical care on a drip I had her provisonally bokked to be in at 1.30pm if she wa snot drinking.

It was the flaming oral science recovery food he prescribed that caused a heap of grief- for me- I just about still have fingers.:lol:
Click to expand...

i hope that doodee is still improving and yes, as you were aware of an infection closeby and your vet thought it necessary, baytril should have been given:)

my bun showed no signs of infection so was treated with gut stimulant, pain relief and fluids which, thankfully, worked for her. she had had a shot of baytril and i was given oral for her which my vet advised against - maybe oral vs injectable effects the gut differently:?

maybe also, some vets give baytril as a matter of course for rabbits? mine doesn't.:)

hope your fingers aren't too sore - i had my first bunny bite during the recovery syringing - ooouuucchh:shock:
 
Yes, poppymoon injected ABx have no significant effect on the gut. Oral ABx can encourage the overgrowth the of adverse bacteria, which have already increased because of the stasis. Some adverse bacteria make toxins which can slow down the gut further.

I had hoped to alert owners to the situation you were faced with. Had your own vet not intervened, I was deeply concerned for Esme.

It would appear that personal issues with me have taken precedence over thegeneral care of buns in stasis.
 
Simon gives a thorough check over to all bunnies with stasis,if he suspects an infection [a temp or whatever] he'll give abx if not then he wont give any.He also likes to see any bun thats had stasis in a couple of days just to check that all is going well.[:love:]
 
Thank you Daisy lop.
This is the point I am trying to make. That is good veterinary practice.
If there is clinical evidence that a bun has an infection, then obviously it needs to be treated.
[In fact especially so in a stasis situation because stasis is often associated with a low WBC so the bun is immunocompromised]

I am concerned about a few stasis buns who have been prescribed ABx when there has been NO clinical evidence of infection.
A return to the bad old days of sick animal = ABx + steroids.
The purpose of the thread was to improve bunny care in general, by helpig owners to understand the principals of management.
 
I agree. Completely.

I also think far too many buns miss out on Sub cut/IV fluids and painkillers in situations like that.

I believe those saved Autumn's life back in May (coupled with the fact I was able to administer under vets instructions, from home) and they are such easy and basic things to think about.
 
I don't think anyone has an issue with you _thumps, just that people have different opinions and I personally go by what has worked for me in the past.

Sometimes the best you can do in a desperate situation is try the 'hit-it-and-hope' approach where you throw any and every possible medication at the problem in the hope that something works.

Besides there are lots of different types of stasis, caused by different things, and symptoms can vary so greatly. I've seen stasis buns present with rock solid abdomen and dry or no poops...bloated belly with diarrohea...gassy bun who is agitated and can't get comfortable....and others besides.
 
To date I have never had anti biotics prescribed when there has been a stasis by either of the two bunny savvy vets that we have used.

I cannot personally see why it would help to have Baytril (if someone who has been prescribed for stasis please enlighten me). Normally I would expect rehydration, pain relief and gut stimulant and/or zantac. I agree that fluids are incredibly important and would be far more beneficial in most instances of stasis.

I can see why it would not be beneficial to give it - as you say, unbalancing the gut flora, and possibly causing more harm than good.

I think I might have to ask our vet if he can see any reason why it should be prescribed, next time I see him.
 
We have been prescribed baytril or similar on a few occassions when bunnies have presented with stasis.

I feel that in some instances that stasis is a symptom of another problem rather than a problem in itself :?
 
Hugo's There said:
We have been prescribed baytril or similar on a few occassions when bunnies have presented with stasis.

I feel that in some instances that stasis is a symptom of another problem rather than a problem in itself :?
Click to expand...

I think that you are probably going to see every different kind of treament for your bunnies Liz and will see more than your fair share of stasis due to an underlying more serious problem. Most of our stasis issues have never been attributed to anything more than a bit of fur, or grumbling teeth maybe so I'd not expect an anti-bio for those cases.
 
Hugo's There said:
I feel that in some instances that stasis is a symptom of another problem rather than a problem in itself :?
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this

Of course you can go down the route of blood tests, etc, to establish a cause before giving antibiotics...but it depends how much time you have. Establishing a cause isn't much good if the bun has already died.
 
The Duchess said:
Most of our stasis issues have never been attributed to anything more than a bit of fur, or grumbling teeth maybe so I'd not expect an anti-bio for those cases.
Click to expand...

I personally don't believe that fur causes stasis...I'm very much of the opinion that already slow guts cause fur to get stuck in the GI system
 
Hugo's There said:
We have been prescribed baytril or similar on a few occassions when bunnies have presented with stasis.

I feel that in some instances that stasis is a symptom of another problem rather than a problem in itself :?
Click to expand...

I thought this was always the case? Please correct me if I'm wrong there. I always believed that Stasis was caused by something else (i.e. stasis doesn't happen for no reason).

Ok, writing that and thinking it through, I think, from my understanding, is that something has to cause stasis (as in it never just happens), which may be environmental, dietary, etc, but that stasis can be secondary to another physical (diagnosed or otherwise) problem. Is that correct? And Liz, you were talking about stasis being a secondary issue?


ETA- when I started writing ther were no replies after Liz. I'm so slooooooooooooooooooooow.
 
I agree with everything you've said Thumps. Unless there is an obvious infection, I see not point in using ABX (especially oral)
Stabilise first with analgesia and fluid therapy, and continue further treatment after blockages have been ruled out.
You mentioned WBC count. I'd love to know if rabbits that are regularly given short courses of any of the bendazoles, are more prone to GI stasis?
 
abbymarysmokey said:
I personally don't believe that fur causes stasis...I'm very much of the opinion that slow guts cause fur to get stuck
Click to expand...

I know where you are coming from here.

As most of the bunnies that come in to us have normally been on a bad diet for a very long time, gut motility is often a problem and has in the past caused the gut to slow down too much.

Not enough fibre through lack of desire to eat hay though rather than a real gut complaint where the gut is severely affected. To date, we haven't luckily had a rabbit who has had a long term gut problem so we count our blessings.

With our rabbits that have had a very high fibre diet and produce good output normally, fur passes throught the gut very well; with us finding many strings of pearls at times of heavy moult.
 
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