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View Full Version : Can hot weather increase caecetrophs-sp?



willowholly
03-07-2010, 07:35 PM
Barley has got a terrible bum & had it last time it was really hot in May.Her diets not changed,so can it be anything to do with the weather?

charl86
03-07-2010, 07:49 PM
I've had the same problem with Sooty lately, so I think it might be from the heat.

thumps_
03-07-2010, 09:05 PM
1st. Do the caecs smell like your normal bunny caecs?
My buns caecs have a smell but I don't personally find it offensive, it's a Thumper smell.
If the wrong bacteria take over in his caecum his caecs stink & even he can't stand them!

Normal smelling caecs = no big panic. - possibly too much nutrient for energy needs. Action - reduce dry pellets, perhaps introduce herbs rather than rich veg.

Stinky caecs = wrong bacteria (dysbiosis) needs putting right.
Causes - gut slowed down because of eg. heat stress, dehydration, too much high nutrient.
STOP ALL starch/fruit/commercial treats.
Increase fiber - hay, perhaps bramble leaves & safe shrub leaves.
Stop dry feed (because it's hot art the mo.) & give a small amount of the lower nutrient veg to maintain fluids.
If this fails within 48hrs or it gets worse, hay only diet for 48 hours.

Should the caecs become runny see a vet immediately.
Good luck :wave:

Shellypops
03-07-2010, 09:17 PM
1st. Do the caecs smell like your normal bunny caecs?
My buns caecs have a smell but I don't personally find it offensive, it's a Thumper smell.
If the wrong bacteria take over in his caecum his caecs stink & even he can't stand them!

Normal smelling caecs = no big panic. - possibly too much nutrient for energy needs. Action - reduce dry pellets, perhaps introduce herbs rather than rich veg.

Stinky caecs = wrong bacteria (dysbiosis) needs putting right.
Causes - gut slowed down because of eg. heat stress, dehydration, too much high nutrient.
STOP ALL starch/fruit/commercial treats.
Increase fiber - hay, perhaps bramble leaves & safe shrub leaves.
Stop dry feed (because it's hot art the mo.) & give a small amount of the lower nutrient veg to maintain fluids.
If this fails within 48hrs or it gets worse, hay only diet for 48 hours.

Should the caecs become runny see a vet immediately.
Good luck :wave:


That was an excellent post a lot of us have been suffering with the same problems recently and you just somed up an action plan perfectly!:thumb:

willowholly
03-07-2010, 09:58 PM
1st. Do the caecs smell like your normal bunny caecs?
My buns caecs have a smell but I don't personally find it offensive, it's a Thumper smell.
If the wrong bacteria take over in his caecum his caecs stink & even he can't stand them!

Normal smelling caecs = no big panic. - possibly too much nutrient for energy needs. Action - reduce dry pellets, perhaps introduce herbs rather than rich veg.

Stinky caecs = wrong bacteria (dysbiosis) needs putting right.
Causes - gut slowed down because of eg. heat stress, dehydration, too much high nutrient.
STOP ALL starch/fruit/commercial treats.
Increase fiber - hay, perhaps bramble leaves & safe shrub leaves.
Stop dry feed (because it's hot art the mo.) & give a small amount of the lower nutrient veg to maintain fluids.
If this fails within 48hrs or it gets worse, hay only diet for 48 hours.


Should the caecs become runny see a vet immediately.
Good luck :wave:
They dont smell abnormal.She only does it late morning/early afternoon.She only has a very small amount of pellets in the morning with hay.She has loads of veg in evening which I cant really reduce because it helps her renal problems but she doesn't have any problems in evening/night with caecs.Ive also found lately she wont let me touch her bottom since Dills been pawing her alot lately so it makes cleaning difficult.When she was a single bun she would sit for ages letting me shread her tail & cut out dirty fur.Now I cant get anywhere near her.Im thinking its the hot weather making her lazy/sleepy.Im worried as shes going on her hols again on sunday which means she will have access to the outside world & flies which she doesn't have here.Really dont think diet is the problem.what do you think?

thumps_
03-07-2010, 10:11 PM
I think the problem is the heat, which is causing "stress" which is slowing down the gut. My suggestions re diet were to improve a slow gut.

The heat has been a big problem to us too, especially with Thumper's ongoing gut issues.
He has a normal single coat, but he's so well insulated he's boiling inside, but cool on the outside!!!

My vet shaved a square of fur off his tummy from just below his liver,& down, a couple of days ago. BRILLIANT.
I leave a damp, folded bath towel in shade for him, & he hops on & off to cool down through his bald patch. He's perfect temp. control, & it's fast. It's the way we've found by far.

willowholly
03-07-2010, 10:23 PM
Ahh,sorry,I thought you were saying it was stress related due to heat if her poos smelt,which they dont.What veg is low in nutrients?tonight she had cabbage,broccoli,carrot.If it is diet due to stress,& veg was the problem aswell as pellets,wouldn't she have excess caecs throughout the day & not just late morning?Bet your bun feels cooler now is shaved.Poor Thumper.

thumps_
03-07-2010, 10:47 PM
Ahh,sorry,I thought you were saying it was stress related due to heat if her poos smelt,which they dont.What veg is low in nutrients?tonight she had cabbage,broccoli,carrot.If it is diet due to stress,& veg was the problem aswell as pellets,wouldn't she have excess caecs throughout the day & not just late morning?Bet your bun feels cooler now is shaved.Poor Thumper.

Bunnies have a gut timing mechanism, so they only pass caecs x2 per day & at a different time from waste poops.

The gut can slow down fom all sorts of stress factors, & maintain a reasonably normal gut bacteria. (not smelly)

If the slow down is severe or prolonged, there can be a take over by the wrong sort of bacteria which is when the poops get smelly, & it can cause further gut issues in a downward spiral.

As a separate issue if there is too much nutrient in the diet for the bunny's needs, they won't eat all their normal caecs.

It's good to stop uneaten caecs if possible, as you know.

I honestly don't have experience of kidney problems in buns - too much experience of gut & poop problems!!!!:lol: .

Looking at your bun's diet I'm NOT criticising NOR in any position to do so.
If it is OK with your bun's kidney issues, I'd stop the carrot, & see if that helps, because carrot is high in starch = energy & your bun is probably not excercising much in this heat so needs less energy.
I hope that makes some sense to you!!
ETA if your bun has bladder sludge - there's a fantastic weed which helps.

Hanlou
03-07-2010, 10:55 PM
Thanks for the posts thumps. :wave:

You make a lot of helpful posts so thanks. I had this exact problem with Hollie on the hottest day we had (apart from last Sunday - she was ok then) and as she has thick fur I'm certain it was the heat.

I put a damp towel up at the window which seemed to help - sort of a cheap air-con' as it cools the air coming through the window.

Hollie's caecotrophs were non-smelly but I pretty much did *exactly* what you said and gave her 'bland' veg that day, no treats and a few less pellets. She had a little 'soft poo' too. She was fine by the evening thankfully and has had no problems since then.

willowholly
03-07-2010, 11:03 PM
ETA if your bun has bladder sludge - there's a fantastic weed which helps.

Which is?I grow my own dandelions but only give them now & then as high in calcium & I believe they are a laxative as well as a diuretic.
Thankyou for all your advice.You have been very helpful.

thumps_
03-07-2010, 11:23 PM
It's called sow thistle. There are prickly & smooth leaved varieties. Thumper prefers the smooth leaf (who wouldn't?)
http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=sowthistle&gbv=2&aq=0&aqi=g1g-m1&aql=&oq=Sowthistle&gs_rfai=

They grow in recently dug ground, & like to be dry round the stem but moist near the surface underground. They also grow in road grit, but are usually too contaminated by traffic fumes for our buns. If you want to try some, & can't find them locally, I'll post you some seeds I've collected.

thumps_
03-07-2010, 11:49 PM
I forgot to explain dehydration.
We all know that bunnies can't sweat. When they overheat, they breath more quickly & lose heat by evaporating fluid from the lungs & sinuses. So they get dehydrated from their breath.
If the gut has slowed down they feel full, & are less likely to drink cos that makes them feel full too. The poor bunnies can't win.

Sow thistle is packed with fluid. I've no idea how much calcium it's got in it, but it's worked miracles for Thumper's fluid intake, which is the main cause of his sludge.;)

willowholly
04-07-2010, 09:46 AM
Good morning:wave:Its funny you saying about dehydration as they drank over a bowl of water the other day or so but now hardly seem to touch it.Can you grow sow thistle inside?I have no garden so grow my dandys on my windowsill.Would love to have a go if you can.:D

thumps_
04-07-2010, 12:45 PM
:wave: Hi there, I don't see why not, but in good conditions they're about 2-3' high & grow taller in shade. They like sand or gravel for about 1" at the top & a good moist soil underneath, bright sun for about 1/2 the day.

If you cut them back to just above ground level they sprout again with bushier leafier growth. If you want seeds you cut back about to about 1/2 plant height & they send off flower heads where the remaining leaves meet the stem!!

I think that if your buns are breathing quickly, getting a strip of fur shaved from their tummies, & putting a damp towel down for them to lie on will help a lot.
[In humans rapid breathing mucks up our blood calcium levels & causes minor problems with nerve conduction - even to the gut. I do NOT KNOW whether this also applies to bunnies]

If your buns are off their fluids, I'd be concentrating on getting fluids into them - herbs such as basil/dill/ even cucumber, starting as always in small amounts.

All the best Judy.
[I'm currently trying to find out whether gut slow down also increases the amount of calcium buns absorb from their food. I don't know too much :lol:]

Gemmapookie
04-07-2010, 01:19 PM
Thanks for the really useful information Thumps, it will be so useful for anyone with this kind of problem :wave:

Willowholly, I hope your bun has less caecs today. The hot weather is such a bother for them :( xxx

thumps_
04-07-2010, 04:18 PM
Thank you every one for being so kind, & appreciative on this thread.
I owe everything to my lovely bunny who is good at looking after himself, & I try to check out what I see him doing with a wonderful vet.

Although off topic from the caec issue it has become on topic for Willowholly's bunnies, & sludge issues + heat.

When buns breath more rapidly to lose heat:-
a) They become dehydrated (which is bad for the gut) and obviously pass less wee.
b) It upsets the blood acidity/alkalinity which mucks up body calcium levels. To keep this under control the body makes the wee more alkaline.

Calcium carbonate - "chalk" doesn't dissolve well in alkaline urine. So our buns need to make even more wee to dissolve the chalk, if their wee gets more alkaline.

The best place to intervene for sludge issues in summer heat is to help them to cool down without having to breath so fast, (plus increasing their fluid intake in their fresh diet.)

Wild buns just nip down a burrow where the air is much cooler underground.
I tried to cool the air in front of his nose basically with ice, but had to be with him all the time.
a)To make sure he didn't sit on it & get frost bite/burn
b) To follow him round when he hopped off!

I've said before about shaving his fur.
I think that's as much as I know.:lol::lol::lol::lol:

willowholly
04-07-2010, 10:47 PM
Thankyou so much Judy.B has alot of wet veg for her cystitis such as cucumber,apples,carrots.I know this is not a good diet for most buns,but it works for her & vet suggested it.Got in from work about an hour ago & all veg has gone but water not touched.Caec problem,no change.Didn't give her any carrots or fruit today & barely any pellets,but no difference what so ever.:(

donnamt
04-07-2010, 10:50 PM
awww dont feel down hearted, takes weeks for the gut to sort itself after an upset xxxxx

Hanlou
04-07-2010, 11:01 PM
Thankyou so much Judy.B has alot of wet veg for her cystitis such as cucumber,apples,carrots.I know this is not a good diet for most buns,but it works for her & vet suggested it.Got in from work about an hour ago & all veg has gone but water not touched.Caec problem,no change.Didn't give her any carrots or fruit today & barely any pellets,but no difference what so ever.:(

Hope the wonderful Barley will soon feel better xxx :)

Sending vibes for her xx

Fortunately I don't worry about Hollie's fluid intake as she drinks loads of water which is, as I now see, a very good thing!

thumps_
05-07-2010, 12:51 AM
Thankyou so much Judy.B has alot of wet veg for her cystitis such as cucumber,apples,carrots.I know this is not a good diet for most buns,but it works for her & vet suggested it.Got in from work about an hour ago & all veg has gone but water not touched.Caec problem,no change.Didn't give her any carrots or fruit today & barely any pellets,but no difference what so ever.:(

Don't worry I understand exactly why B needs that diet. I also understand why you can't use the standard technique of a hay only diet. It's far too dry, & would set off her urine problems again.Yes?

OK I think the 1st. thing is a trip to the vet:-
a) to shave a square of fur from just belowthe liver on B's tummy.
b) to assess B's hydration, she may need some subcut fluids depending on your vets findings.
c) May be worth having B's teeth checked for molar spurs if it hasn't been done recently.

I'd persevere without the carrot & pellets for a couple of weeks if you can. If B is a house bun, the only thing she needs from her pellets is Vit. D3, & she'll have plenty of stores in her body.

I cannot promise it will work but I can say it cannot do any harm & should do good.
We can get B's gut to work better by giving her fresh blackberry leaves. They grow everywhere, even in cities. They grow in a hedge which isn't well maintained, long standing wasteland, at the edge of a copse.
They are considered to be a plant "pest", so you are doing everyone a favour by cutting off the leaves. The Council should be paying you to do so!!!
It's a good source of moist fiber.
Start with about 3-4 sprays of leaves. (I cut the individual leaves off the prickly stem, cos Tumper's got a delicate mouth :roll:) If B really goes for them she needs them. My bun has had them ad lib. for years.

I'm suggesting this because my bun will only drink when his gut is working well. The slower his gut, the fuller he feels, & he wants to use all the space he he's got for food & fiber; he deffo doesn't want to fill up with water!!!

Tip 2) The tip of a teaspoon of Avipro plus in the water as a flavouring without sugars, can encourage buns to drink. [It's a probiotic, but I'm just using it as a flavouring]

willowholly
05-07-2010, 08:59 PM
Good news is today the water bowl was almost empty when got home from work.Still lots of caecs but Barley,in herself is much livelier,im guessing thats because its cooler.Thankyou so much Judy for being so helpful.You're lovely.:D

thumps_
05-07-2010, 10:32 PM
:wave:I'm delighted to hear your news.:D:D:D:D:D It's wonderful that they are drinking well.
My own bun has been a bit livelier this evening in the cool too, & eaten a little more. I think we can say that heat does slow down the gut!

Another thought occurred to me. In a well suited pair of buns I have seen remarkable altruistic behaviour. In particular one bun refused to eat himself until he had taken the choicest morsels to his sick partner. I wondered whther B's partner let her have the lion's share of the veg knowing that she was poorly, but probably they are fed separately. If she was eating more veg than usual for the fluids, she'd certainly get uneaten caecs. & it will take a few days to work though.

I still think that a few bramble leaves daily would help to prevent her from getting GI issues over the summer. Those of us with stasis prone buns can dry them for winter, but I think that in B's case, it's best they are fresh cos she needs all the moisture she can get & winter isn't such a tricky time.

willowholly
06-07-2010, 09:27 PM
Believe me,Dill is not that thoughtful when it comes to sharing food-he always nicks hers!!!:lol:Water not drunk much today but hardly any caecs,so think we are getting there.Asked my dad for some sow thistle & bramble leaves when there,so hes going to save them for me.Thankyou so much,again.:D

Living_a_lie
06-07-2010, 09:50 PM
I've been having this same problem - I have proceeded by stopping anything other than hay and a small amount of pellets and when they decrease (stop), I will start giving her small amounts of veg. I gave her a commercial treat chew bar thing that attaches to the side of the cage and I think she may have eaten this in one go and this has increased her ceros, hence cutting out any treats until it clears up. Hope your bun is feeling better soon :)

willowholly
07-07-2010, 09:23 PM
Not one caec today.There has been a big change in her since its got cooler.So pleased,was dreading leaving her next week.:D

thumps_
07-07-2010, 09:48 PM
I'm really pleased for you both. :D:D:D:D:D
At least you've got a few ideas to work on, to give you a bit more lee way in the future.
With every good wish & have a lovely holiday. Judy & Thumper :wave:

willowholly
08-07-2010, 12:08 PM
Ahh,thankyou both.:D