Rude Awakening

Hello, well first off I am going to say I am sorry for being so cocky about bonding when I hadn't actually done it - now I have tried it I can see what people mean about the stress factor.

Last night I decided to try my trio together, they had been flopped out next to each other in separate playpens all day and chinning etc so all in all very positive and has been over the last few weeks, I have been swapping toys and haymats for scent etc Anyhow, I opened the 3 pens into one and both bucks were great with my doe she was absolutely fine, seemed a bit nervous but, was almost disinterested if anything, just went nose to nose with both and carried on hopping around and the bucks did the same, then the bucks met - straight away Jingle (3 year old + possibly) Rex jumped on Gizmo's (1 year old dwarf/mini lop) head - Gizmo made a noise and moved and then they started circling really fast and there was fur flying, I panicked (I know idiot) and shouted and clapped so loud that I think the whole of the village heard me they paused, stopped in their tracks and then started again, I picked Jingle up and he wriggled free, as soon as he landed he went straight for Gizmo again so I picked him up again and he bit me on my shoulder :roll: I then separated them all again, they all seemed completely oblivious and were eating straight away and were just hopping around like nothing had happened, I was really upset because initially I thought oh great this is easy, they like each other :roll:

So I am going to try again in a neutral area today, my question is did I intervene too quickly? I have never seen rabbits fight but, this looked like it would have become a fight - if anyone can describe the 'normal' bunny banter that would be great, I said to my OH I am worried now I stepped in too soon, I am also ashamed to say that I had this overwhelming instinct to protect Gizmo, I thought I loved them all the same but, I have had him from a baby and I think it was because Jingle was the aggressor I don't think I would have a problem with either buck and my doe, she seems to like them both, is it doomed because I have 2 bucks or can it be done? I know there will be some chasing and nipping etc but, I don't think till you see it you realise how alarming it is they are so fast. I'm worried I might interpret it as normal and then they get hurt :?

I have two bucks together. I was quite fortunate though because although they hated each other when I tried six months ago, this time round they loved each other and it took minutes for them to be settled around each other.

I think if you see any circling you should split them up. Chasing and fur-pulling is ok. However, if mine chased for too long, ie, more than a few seconds I split them up. Hold the aggressor against the side of the pen for about ten seconds before releasing.

Schuette said:

I have two bucks together. I was quite fortunate though because although they hated each other when I tried six months ago, this time round they loved each other and it took minutes for them to be settled around each other.

I think if you see any circling you should split them up. Chasing and fur-pulling is ok. However, if mine chased for too long, ie, more than a few seconds I split them up. Hold the aggressor against the side of the pen for about ten seconds before releasing.

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Interesting thanks, I have read sooooo many different threads on bonding and I know some bucks get on, I just panicked and I suppose it was chasing and nipping but they were just running so fast in a circle I had visions of this 'rolling in a ball' thing happening and panicked. I think it was good that they responded to me shouting and clapping - although I was really loud Is that an indication that they weren't proper scrapping? If they had been would they have listened to me?

Edited to say, going to try again later, it will be so perfect if they get on, it has to be worth another try, I am going to have the water handy though and not put myself at risk again. Hopefully they will be too hot to bother:roll:

Mine don't normally listen to me :roll: so I can't say :lol: Just to say although I've done a few bondings now I'm not an expert! I can read most of my rabbits pretty well so can normally tell what's going to happen before it does if you see what I mean.

Circling is when they circle each other, a bit like a dog trying to catch it's own tail only with two bunnies. Does that make sense?

circling isnt too bad a sign, the nasty fights ive been witness to have been all in all lunge fly through the air attack in air pull down rip fur draw blood etc.


yep i do feel you intervened to soon and clapping and shouting spraying water wont do a thing other than pause,


have you got a broom not dust brush broom, or and old mop, you see a fight just place between and hold it there to divide until they calm, you be calm to you can use a firm voice if it makes you feel better but shouting really doesnt work,

ave fights last around 20 to 30 secs provided they do stop, if they do stop after a short time then this to me is good as they are testing each other, they do need to be able to get it out of there system

one normaly has to be in charge, get yaself some wine, seems like ya gonna need it :lol:

heat may effect there tempers, please try to avoid constant touching and seperating, most busy time for fights is morning and dusk,

do you have them in a place were you can watch them all the time, even sleep nearby groups take longer than pairs have you made yourself enough time for at least 48hrs though personaly longer,

how big is the space, is there noother smells around of bunnies

areia said:

circling isnt too bad a sign, the nasty fights ive been witness to have been all in all lunge fly through the air attack in air pull down rip fur draw blood etc.


yep i do feel you intervened to soon and clapping and shouting spraying water wont do a thing other than pause,


have you got a broom not dust brush broom, or and old mop, you see a fight just place between and hold it there to divide until they calm, you be calm to you can use a firm voice if it makes you feel better but shouting really doesnt work,

ave fights last around 20 to 30 secs provided they do stop, if they do stop after a short time then this to me is good as they are testing each other, they do need to be able to get it out of there system

one normaly has to be in charge, get yaself some wine, seems like ya gonna need it :lol:

heat may effect there tempers, please try to avoid constant touching and seperating, most busy time for fights is morning and dusk,

do you have them in a place were you can watch them all the time, even sleep nearby groups take longer than pairs have you made yourself enough time for at least 48hrs though personaly longer,

how big is the space, is there noother smells around of bunnies

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Oooh thanks for the replies, Areia would you believe it was dusk:roll: it was my first attempt though and no real harm done I hope, I checked them both over and my doe just sort of watched it all going on so she was fine. They were all fine afterwards aswell, Gizmo thumped when I put Jingle back in the pen next door to him but, no other real unusual signs.

Last night they were each in their own playpen and I just opened the doors sort of thing so that it all connected as one hexagonal one, I suppose because the doe met both of the males and it went well I got a bit hopeful and then the bucks met and it didn't go the same, my rexy boy jumped straight on his head and gizzy made that grunty sound and pushed under him and then Jingle chased him and they were going round in a circle but, it was Gizzie's fur flying, maybe because Jingle is a rex?

I am really limited with bonding area and would prefer to keep them outside in the day and maybe the conservatory at night (nice and cool)Ness and Jingle have never been indoor and when Ness was in after her spay she hated it, went downhill I think cause of it, she perked up as soon as she was out again. I have a shed for them to go in when settled with run attached via a catflap. I can actually sleep in the conservatory aswell if need be on a lilo/airbed I think. I am not forcing things this weekend but, I will try one more time and in a neutral area on the lawn (they have never been in and shaded) if they get on I will move them into the conservatory in the pen tonight and keep them there and then back out in the same size tomorrow and so on, thats the extent of my plan. I can see now why people send them away for bonding:roll: There isn't anywhere near me I don't think grrrrrr I will do what you said with the broom that sounds much better and much more logical. It was sort of the spur of the moment really (not a good idea I know) but they had been so chilled all day next to each other in pens and it was cooler etc

Thanks for the advice xxx P/s there is an unneutered buck next door but, i think it might be too far for them to smell him :? ( hopefully)

having had a rabbit attached to the back of my hand by his teeth because i foolishly thought i could break up a fight, I totaly understood the broom tip that was given to me, the poor boy was so crestfallen after to as hes a soft sole, but just was too busy trying to get away from the doe who was trying to get at him,

oh as well as a broom, having a towel handy may help too to throw over said bun so you can scoop up but this is if fighting really persists

hmm i understand your set up just opening out the sides to make one space yes ?? does this mean they are mixing with each other territories ??? this to me is a no no, groups have to be neutral, also the space could be too big, do you know anyone with a dog crate ???

If not spray the run wires with the solution too,
I know it sounds cruel but a small space has been proven to work better as its less to fight over and easier for you to control as well, and normaly its best to keep them in this space until they show signs of a bond, the cruel to be kind works in the long run, constantly moving them because you feel guilty they are not getting enough space etc isnt an option for now,otherwise you could just be going round in circles

Im just thinking because granted you are limited for space, the conservatory at night then garden could work, but you have to put them in a place no bun has been, orrrrrrrrrrr you have to completly clean it with a vinegar solution, for the garden if you really cant move them to a whole new space rake and water the area, has to be as bunny smell free as poss, the bun next door shouldnt pose a prob, your 3 will be concentrating on each other now

is there no other room you could bond them in? bedroom bathroom, or are there people who are not to keen on that idea,

Thanks Aeria for the reply, yes indoor is a no no with OH he is adamant that its not a good idea (I am midly asthmatic and when we moved recently and pulled all the furniture out etc the amount of rabbit hair)!! He said then he didn't think they were suitable as indoor pets, also the whole house is carpeted apart from the bathroom and conservatory, to be honest he is so brilliant 99% of the time I am trying to respect his wishes on this one, I have a large dog crate I could use, it just seems so small for 3 of them but, I will take your advice, I have put them out in individual playpens in a hexagon shape so all 3 get to see each other, there is a slight gap so no nose nipping although they weren't doing that anyway just lots of chinning. I am going to go with the dog crate in the conservatory - it's easy then to lift outside to a clean area as you say and they will be nice and cool and I can sleep with them. Doing it that way it won't disturb OH who is getting up for work, I am going to do it next week now I think, it's too hot to mess them around. It's Gizmo's dog crate, he has that with a playpen in front but, I will put him out in the playpen and thoroughly disinfect the dog crate and area in the conservatory and move it to another area so it appears different to Gizmo. He has blankets for example but, I will go with newspaper and hay on the floor. Is 48 hours enough to keep them under observation do you think in the dog crate and then extend it a bit with a couple of playpen panels maybe?

This is going to sound daft but, is there an order to put them in the dog crate I mean somebun has to be put in first, second, third? I will be as quick as I can doing it but it's likely to be 5 minutes between 1st and 3rd going in probably would that make any difference?

Thanks for all your help I really appreciate it, it's made me rethink things and plan it a bit better.

here are some pics of the 3 little tykes :lol:

Jingle chillin


Gizmo looking a bit miffed actually


The 3 of them in individual pens

And again


And again with my old girl Lil on guard for them, she is only facing them because I put a parasol over her to block the sun and she is trying to stay on her cushion but get her face in the sun:lol:


Hard to believe he bit me, he looks so gentle doesn't he :roll::lol:


Jingle has always liked Lil, he runs up to her when she walks past

The order you put them really doesnt matter.

If next time you put them together in a small neutral area and they go to circle each other, pull them apart with a broom, count to 10 slowly with them apart and re release them, keep doing that if necessary. This behaviour does not mean it will not work. Dont use your hands as really nasty injuries can happen that way.

If you have other rabbits in the area, particuarly a non neutered male I would suggest either moving the boy or chose a different place for bonding.

Thanks Janice, I am erring towards a playpen so I can use the broom, if I use the dog crate it has a roof fixed on the top so I wouldn't be able to get the broom in. Yes noted about not putting hands in, I have a nasty bruise and two teeth marks on my left shoulder from picking Jingle up:roll: strangely he didn't go for my hands:? He was in such a temper I think, he didn't mean it.
The unneutered male is next door and far enough away I think although it is feasible they will smell him on the breeze? He is a little English Spot I looked after him recently when they were on holiday he is lovely, no spraying or anything as he is single and not even a year yet I don't think. Mine didn't seem bothered although I did wash hands when I came back round here.

They have put his hutch behind the hedge where I am putting the shed though on that far right patio in the corner, (my other pics in this thread http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=234667 his hutch is literally the other side of the hedge, he is out in a run all day from early morning to dusk. Is this likely to cause me a problem do you think? He is very quiet, never thumps or anything.

I'm relieved you don't think it's doomed because of them doing that, I probably over-reacted :roll:

:wave: argh sorry it was a bad start for you.. now you know why I have a million zillion threads on bonding - VERY stressful!!!

Try again Vicki, dont be disheartened - I really think it has to be totally neutral territory, the fights that have happened when mine have met by accident (i.e jumping into each others pens) were attrocious!!
Its horrible to see isnt it - we dont want our babies to come to any harm and I think it looks worse than it is... stay calm and done intervene until proper fighting or if it looks that way.. the broom is handy - and a thick pair of gloves. Dont use anything with a lid - as you say you cant get it and I dread something happening and not being able to spilt it up...

deep breaths and LOADS of good luck - remember it might not happen straight away it can take weeks!!

x

kaths101 said:

:wave: argh sorry it was a bad start for you.. now you know why I have a million zillion threads on bonding - VERY stressful!!!

Try again Vicki, dont be disheartened - I really think it has to be totally neutral territory, the fights that have happened when mine have met by accident (i.e jumping into each others pens) were attrocious!!
Its horrible to see isnt it - we dont want our babies to come to any harm and I think it looks worse than it is... stay calm and done intervene until proper fighting or if it looks that way.. the broom is handy - and a thick pair of gloves. Dont use anything with a lid - as you say you cant get it and I dread something happening and not being able to spilt it up...

deep breaths and LOADS of good luck - remember it might not happen straight away it can take weeks!!x

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Thanks Kath, OH is currently painting the bunny shed for me as I type, they are all separate for now, I said next Saturday morning early they will all go out in separate runs after brekkies for a couple of hours while I clean and change the look of the conservatory, going to put some muslin on the roof and change the voils and white vinegar the floor and a playpen ready for the three of them to go in and they will stay there for 48 hours, i will sleep on the floor on a blow up mattress or something like that. :roll:

It will be worth it though if it works, thanks for the tips I will deffo have the broom handy and some gardening gloves. I will spend the week continuing to put them next to each other and swapping toys etc for scent, fingers crossed for next weekend.
xx

Hi VickiP
I am also bonding a trio today. I have a pair already bonded, Sebastian and Flower (both neutered) and am trying to bond them with Katriona (neutered) who lost her partner Bean last week. They went into a dog crate which I had in the garden but can easily be transported inside so I can sleep in my front room with them. So far the two females have scrapped a lot, flower is really dominant, but Katriona has started giving as good as she gets :? Now there is a bit of grooming, then flower tries to bite her, so she gets a squirt of water straight in the face, so far, this has been enough to stop her. Am keeping my fingers crossed that they continue ok. I hope you manage to get yours to bond next week, its such a stressful time and they really give you a shock with how vicious they can appear to each other Anyhoo, not sure i have much advice I can actually give you as I am fairly new to bonding, this is only my second trio and I have only bonded to groups of pairs together, I think sometimes you just have to take it as it comes. All the best with you bonding next week

Trines said:

Hi VickiP
I am also bonding a trio today. I have a pair already bonded, Sebastian and Flower (both neutered) and am trying to bond them with Katriona (neutered) who lost her partner Bean last week. They went into a dog crate which I had in the garden but can easily be transported inside so I can sleep in my front room with them. So far the two females have scrapped a lot, flower is really dominant, but Katriona has started giving as good as she gets :? Now there is a bit of grooming, then flower tries to bite her, so she gets a squirt of water straight in the face, so far, this has been enough to stop her. Am keeping my fingers crossed that they continue ok. I hope you manage to get yours to bond next week, its such a stressful time and they really give you a shock with how vicious they can appear to each other Anyhoo, not sure i have much advice I can actually give you as I am fairly new to bonding, this is only my second trio and I have only bonded to groups of pairs together, I think sometimes you just have to take it as it comes. All the best with you bonding next week

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Hi thats the only thing that is pulling me towards the dog crate as you said they can be transported in or out if it's really warm and if all else fails, OH has a van so we could take them for a short drive, although I would feel really guilty if I did that I was just discussing it with him and he said he could make me a sort of paddle thing which would fit through the bars to separate them if necessary as a broom wouldn't fit and you can always open the door in an emergency with my gloves on. Mmmm you've made me think the dog crate might be easier actually, I will see what the weather is going to be like, if it's going to be this hot like this weekend it will be the crate so I can put it outside:? It would seem wouldn't it that the clash occurs with same sex bunnies, I do hope yours works out alright, it sounds like you know what your doing, I suppose your worry is that it might upset your bonded pair? Fingers crossed for you, take my hat of to you and hope it goes well for both of us. If you think of anything else as the day's go by let me know won't you.:wave:

I'll let you know if I pick up any other tips. Yes it is always the same sex pairs that cause all the trouble :lol: the boy is just sauntering between the two girls, no aggression, just lots of grooming for both of them. I am not all that worried about the pairs bond as to be honest, they have never bonded strongly and I always got the impression that sebastian was better suited to Katriona as she is really laid back (she is also 7) and flower is a bit of a Diva, its also funny because Bean, who was Katriona's partner, would have suited flower :roll: Anyhoo, I think it will work out, as they have a large hutch with a very large run, so they will eventually have loads of space. Keep your fingers crossed for me

Trines said:

I'll let you know if I pick up any other tips. Yes it is always the same sex pairs that cause all the trouble :lol: the boy is just sauntering between the two girls, no aggression, just lots of grooming for both of them. I am not all that worried about the pairs bond as to be honest, they have never bonded strongly and I always got the impression that sebastian was better suited to Katriona as she is really laid back (she is also 7) and flower is a bit of a Diva, its also funny because Bean, who was Katriona's partner, would have suited flower :roll: Anyhoo, I think it will work out, as they have a large hutch with a very large run, so they will eventually have loads of space. Keep your fingers crossed for me

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Awww will be nice for them, I think you probably know what your doing Hope they are good bunnehs for mummeh! Fingers crossed x

I will say a dog crate isnt always the best when it comes to having to use the broom, I did use the dog crate for most of my bondings though, it does make it a bit skew wiffy with the broom, if you are not confident


yes they do look too small for 3 buns, but smaller is better to start
No I never say give up striaght away, provided you have prepared properly first

I used to love watching there characters as you never get the same two bonds, they can get devious nipping of feet to get a bun to move, forceing heads under chins, random thumping either out of frustration or to intimidate, burrowing to get out, jumping out, if you have an open to

do you drive at all ??? you can start a bond by putting them straight into one carrier and going for a drive


If you do decide to use say a play pen, they are the 6 panels arnt they, id just use one set (6 panels ) then use the others on top maybe most tied with cable ties in case chasing makes it a bit unstable, leaving gap in the middle so you can get a broom in

its going to get messy so maybe an old sheet or tarp if you have carpet you wish to protect, if you have it in your conservatory, trays do tend to go flying in scuffles,

areia said:

I will say a dog crate isnt always the best when it comes to having to use the broom, I did use the dog crate for most of my bondings though, it does make it a bit skew wiffy with the broom, if you are not confident


yes they do look too small for 3 buns, but smaller is better to start
No I never say give up striaght away, provided you have prepared properly first

I used to love watching there characters as you never get the same two bonds, they can get devious nipping of feet to get a bun to move, forceing heads under chins, random thumping either out of frustration or to intimidate, burrowing to get out, jumping out, if you have an open to

do you drive at all ??? you can start a bond by putting them straight into one carrier and going for a drive


If you do decide to use say a play pen, they are the 6 panels arnt they, id just use one set (6 panels ) then use the others on top maybe most tied with cable ties in case chasing makes it a bit unstable, leaving gap in the middle so you can get a broom in

its going to get messy so maybe an old sheet or tarp if you have carpet you wish to protect, if you have it in your conservatory, trays do tend to go flying in scuffles,

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Thanks Aeria for taking the time to help, I am going to go with the dog crate I think, OH has said he will make me a paddle type thing that will fit between the bars and be similar to a broom in terms of being able to push one and hold them if it's a timeout scenario, I really appreciate all the tips, I'm always saying to people to do a search and read threads but, this way saves time and I just needed to talk about it I think. I put ply on the bottom of the dog crate and blankets for Gizzy but, I will cover the ply with newspaper and hay no trays. I am going to go for the crate so if it is hot they can be lifted outside, I will let you know how it goes. I have noted all the advice and feel a bit better about trying again, they were little angels today did you see the pics I put on?

Just seen this Vicki, ouch hope you're ok!!

I dont think bonding in the garden with three is a great idea especially as they have just had a fight there. Its really hard to neutralise an outside space, i would advise a dog crate in the kitchen personally and i always use a water spray (not a water pistol) it encourages grooming after and definetely diffuses things without having to touch them. The smaller the space the better for the first few hours, i know you read my bonding thread and i made the mistake of giving them a huge dog crate... considering it was four buns and teddy is so big thats actually not a huge space but it did make a difference. They were ina tiny crate for a day until i gradually increased it. I felt awful considering the space they are used too but i prefer to do that than risk them injurying eachother fighting. Makesure you have icepods/frozen water bottles to go in the crate to keep them cool. Its all paid off now and they are all happy together. I can tell you its really not easy and i have had 5 weeks of stress, tears and tantrums and i only did this last year too! Its soooo worth it in the end though :wave:

ps Oh and lots of car rides really do help alot!!!