PDA

View Full Version : P@H newspaper offer



prettylupin
24-06-2010, 03:39 PM
I have no idea if this has already been posted on here, but I just got this through the post:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af12/prettylupin/PHoffer-1.jpg

Is it me or is there something wrong here.... this cage is VERY small, too small for a rabbit. Not really helping the 'bunnies cost a lot to look after properly' issue is it. Maybe i've missed something but I didn't realise they stocked cages this size and said they were suitable for rabbits? I thought they were becoming more pro larger hutch as a company. :?

Heather&Bart-MyLittleBuns
24-06-2010, 04:04 PM
Hmm tbh so did I but it seems not :?

It seems all they want to do is make money even at the cost of the animals welfare :(

honeybunny
24-06-2010, 04:09 PM
That cage is not suitable for a rabbit or a guinea pig..the base would make a good litter tray though:D

KTJ
24-06-2010, 04:15 PM
I have 2 pet rats, Bella and Daisy, and their cage is bigger than that one :?

prettylupin
24-06-2010, 04:22 PM
I have just copied this off their website!

[When you buy a pet from us, you can be sure it was bred in comfortable and caring surroundings. We only source pets from suppliers who fulfil the 5 basic freedoms laid down in the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and we regularly inspect our suppliers to make sure they meet our high standards and that they have the right attitude towards animals.]

Don't you just LOVE the hypocrisy of it all! What on earth is the point in making a claim referring to the animal welfare act regarding your breeders if you are then going to encourage your customers to break it! :roll:
I'm off to write a lovely email to customer services (again!) ;)

Oh yeah - that was under the section 'we are a responsible retailer'!! :roll:

Blackberry & Co
24-06-2010, 04:29 PM
I've emailed them about this kind of offer before, and got absolutely no response :roll:

But if lots of people complain it WILL make a difference - so come on everybody!!! :thumb:

prettylupin
24-06-2010, 04:33 PM
I've emailed them about this kind of offer before, and got absolutely no response :roll:

But if lots of people complain it WILL make a difference - so come on everybody!!! :thumb:

Do you have a straightforward email address for customer services? I can't use the online form because I want to attach the image of the offer I have received to demonstrate my point and to cut and paste that section about responsible retailing from their website to support it. I have had very good responses from them in the past so hoping another one will be forthcoming. Overall I do feel they are an awful lot better than most other pet shops out there, and have made some very positive changes, I just wish it wasn't always three steps forward and two steps back again, it is very frustrating.

Same happened recently with Haskin's Garden Centre. After a year of being in contact with HQ and the MD got loads of stuff changed and improved, only to go in the other day to find management had changed and it was all back to square one again......groan! :shock::cry:

Blackberry & Co
24-06-2010, 04:35 PM
Do you have a straightforward email address for customer services? I can't use the online form because I want to attach the image of the offer I have received to demonstrate my point and to cut and paste that section about responsible retailing from their website to support it. I have had very good responses from them in the past so hoping another one will be forthcoming. Overall I do feel they are an awful lot better than most other pet shops out there, and have made some very positive changes, I just wish it wasn't always three steps forward and two steps back again, it is very frustrating.

Same happened recently with Haskin's Garden Centre. After a year of being in contact with HQ and the MD got loads of stuff changed and improved, only to go in the other day to find management had changed and it was all back to square one again......groan! :shock::cry:

Had to use the one on their website, so I'm not sure you can attach images. Might be worth sending a letter through the post in that case.

Other places send an acknowledgement, but I didn't even have that from P@H. Think I will have to try again!

prettylupin
24-06-2010, 04:37 PM
Had to use the one on their website, so I'm not sure you can attach images. Might be worth sending a letter through the post in that case.

Other places send an acknowledgement, but I didn't even have that from P@H. Think I will have to try again!

I would try again. I've had some very indepth responses to various issues I have raised and at times they've even phoned my local store and reported back to me regarding certain things, rabbits in the adoption centre etc.
The key is to point out their positives as well as their shortcomings and just say how disappointed you are, it always seems to work for me. :)
I am actually very disappointed because they are pretty responsible most of the time and this is why it frustrates me more a bit I suppose, rather than a retailer who couldn't care less in the first place.

racheljessica
24-06-2010, 04:41 PM
Yeah it is too small but I must admit I did take advantage of the offer yesterday. I've bought it for bonding two rabbits next week. From what I have read on here rabbits need to be in a small space during bonding to make them interact with each other.

I was dissapointed that staff didn't preach to me about the cage being too small to keep rabbits closed in and they must have access to a run etc though. They didn't bother to find out how I was going to use it. It's a good offer for responsible owners who are using the cage in addition to other space and keep it open permanently (or using it short term for for bonding purposes). It's bad that there is nothing on the advert to say it isn't suitable accomadation to keep a rabbit closed in for people who are less aware of a rabbits needs.

The Duchess
24-06-2010, 04:56 PM
Yeah it is too small but I must admit I did take advantage of the offer yesterday. I've bought it for bonding two rabbits next week. From what I have read on here rabbits need to be in a small space during bonding to make them interact with each other.

I was dissapointed that staff didn't preach to me about the cage being too small to keep rabbits closed in and they must have access to a run etc though. They didn't bother to find out how I was going to use it. It's a good offer for responsible owners who are using the cage in addition to other space and keep it open permanently (or using it short term for for bonding purposes). It's bad that there is nothing on the advert to say it isn't suitable accomadation to keep a rabbit closed in for people who are less aware of a rabbits needs.

On the subject of bonding, the tray might be useful but the top will just get in the way as you will need to be able to get to stop the bunnies if anything kicks off. The tray base with a puppy pen around would be more suitable.

The problem with taking advantage of this kind of offer is that while people are prepared to buy it, they will keep selling it and nothing will change.

Vote with your feet people and boycott retailers that don't try and improve their product lines.

Snouter
24-06-2010, 05:51 PM
I have just copied this off their website!

[When you buy a pet from us, you can be sure it was bred in comfortable and caring surroundings. We only source pets from suppliers who fulfil the 5 basic freedoms laid down in the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and we regularly inspect our suppliers to make sure they meet our high standards and that they have the right attitude towards animals.]

Don't you just LOVE the hypocrisy of it all! What on earth is the point in making a claim referring to the animal welfare act regarding your breeders if you are then going to encourage your customers to break it! :roll:
I'm off to write a lovely email to customer services (again!) ;)

Oh yeah - that was under the section 'we are a responsible retailer'!! :roll:

I agree, it's hypocrisy.

That offer is remarkably similar to the one for the Easter Bunny offer described in the following thread.

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=220405

The end result of the tirade of Easter Bunny complaints was basically:


An offer of just the rabbit products (with the inclusive rabbit removed).
An email from P@H containing numerous platitudes from the P@H Head of Pets plus the usual stuff about "responsible retailer, care for animals, trained staff, etc, etc".


It looks as though the original rabbit-exclusive offer has just been repeated.

Perhaps they think that people have forgotten the Easter Bunnies offer.

If someone has bought one, I wonder if they were given the advice about buying a run? This was included at a discount in the previous offer.

The above thread also contains a direct P@H email address to which emails (with attachments) can be sent.

CrazyGal330
24-06-2010, 06:21 PM
They have these kinds of offers plastered all over the store, for various hutches for rabbits, guinea pigs and hamsters, from what i saw last time i went into my local p@h. As a responsible owner it could be taken advantage of to get say, a "big" rabbit hutch for guinea pigs, but it seems really irresponsible that they have these lables all over the store, by the hutches, by the animals, grr. :(

Elena
24-06-2010, 06:27 PM
On the subject of bonding, the tray might be useful but the top will just get in the way as you will need to be able to get to stop the bunnies if anything kicks off. The tray base with a puppy pen around would be more suitable

I think it depends on the size of the opening in the lid. We used one similar but bigger for bonding the four but ours had an opening that was almost as large as the entire top.

(They were only in it for a few hours before we made it bigger before anyone asks!)

Becki xX
24-06-2010, 09:02 PM
I'll complain - again :roll: :(

Bucks
24-06-2010, 09:31 PM
On the subject of bonding, the tray might be useful but the top will just get in the way as you will need to be able to get to stop the bunnies if anything kicks off. The tray base with a puppy pen around would be more suitable.

The problem with taking advantage of this kind of offer is that while people are prepared to buy it, they will keep selling it and nothing will change.

Vote with your feet people and boycott retailers that don't try and improve their product lines.

Here Here

We have just started with rabbits a couple of months ago & bought quite a few things fro P@H, I think from now on we will vote with our feet & shop elsewhere, Hopefully we will find time to wright to P@H to let them know why we wont be shopping with them again, not that it will make any difference.

Also our local P@H seem to have a lot of rabbits the same enclosure with tonnes of woodshavings & pretty much no hay at all.

thumps_
24-06-2010, 09:39 PM
This is terrible.

The best reference I can find to minimal requirements for bunny housing is the RSPCA rabbit care site. Environment is http://www.rspca.org.uk/allaboutanimals/pets/rabbits/environment.
I have yet to find a site quoting the 6'x3'x2' size for a hutch. I believe that a run is now compulsory. If anyone can help me there I'd be grateful.

You have my support. I'll e-mail when I've calmed down a bit.

Nicola1
24-06-2010, 09:43 PM
:( they seem to have loads of offers like this at the minute. To be fair though when I first got Harvey the girl who served me told me the 4ft x 2ft hutch I got would be too small when he got a bit bigger, she never refused to sell me Harvey though.

I think the way they would get around it is they are putting junior rabbit food in as part of the offer :roll:

Becki xX
24-06-2010, 09:47 PM
Vote with your feet people and boycott retailers that don't try and improve their product lines.

This! Its so easy for us to pick up a tin of dog food or a cat collar when we need them right now, especially as P@h is next to where we both work - but we are making a massive conscious effort to source everything online. As I always come out :cry: after seeing the animals X

Snouter
24-06-2010, 10:03 PM
This is terrible.

The best reference I can find to minimal requirements for bunny housing is the RSPCA rabbit care site. Environment is http://www.rspca.org.uk/allaboutanimals/pets/rabbits/environment.
I have yet to find a site quoting the 6'x3'x2' size for a hutch. I believe that a run is now compulsory. If anyone can help me there I'd be grateful.

You have my support. I'll e-mail when I've calmed down a bit.

I think that the ultimate responsibility for the welfare of their rabbits eventually comes down to the owner.

In a free market, P@H (and anyone else) can sell what they like (provided it's legal). Customers can chose not to buy it.

Tiny hutches for sale are unacceptable, but they aren't illegal (unfortunately). The owner is responsible for welfare standards for their rabbits.

P@H (and others) have no obligation to only sell hutches that comply with RSPCA/RWA standards.


However, P@H (and others) can reasonably be criticised if:


The conditions of the animals in their stores and the actions of their staff do not comply in every single respect and detail with the terms and conditions of their pet shop licence.
They do not do all the things they claim regarding staff training, knowledge and experience.
They provide poor, incorrect or inadequate advice after claiming that they always do so.

They can also be humilliated as a business each time they say one thing but do another or fail to live up to the claims in their brochures, leaflets and literature.

Bucks
24-06-2010, 10:23 PM
I think that the ultimate responsibility for the welfare of their rabbits eventually comes down to the owner.

In a free market, P@H (and anyone else) can sell what they like (provided it's legal). Customers can chose not to buy it.

Tiny hutches for sale are unacceptable, but they aren't illegal (unfortunately). The owner is responsible for welfare standards for their rabbits.
P@H (and others) have no obligation to only sell hutches that comply with RSPCA/RWA standards.


cut

But how many new owners out there just go by what they where told at P@H & other pet shops & know no better.

We bought our Rabbits and a hutch that was way to small a couple of months ago, not knowing any better.
Luckily for our bunnies I cared enough for them to get onto the Internet to do some research and came across RU which has educated us a lot more about rabbit welfare, but how many just stick with the advice & what they buy from these pet shops.

The Duchess
24-06-2010, 10:32 PM
I think that the ultimate responsibility for the welfare of their rabbits eventually comes down to the owner.

In a free market, P@H (and anyone else) can sell what they like (provided it's legal). Customers can chose not to buy it.

Tiny hutches for sale are unacceptable, but they aren't illegal (unfortunately). The owner is responsible for welfare standards for their rabbits.

P@H (and others) have no obligation to only sell hutches that comply with RSPCA/RWA standards.


However, P@H (and others) can reasonably be criticised if:


The conditions of the animals in their stores and the actions of their staff do not comply in every single respect and detail with the terms and conditions of their pet shop licence.
They do not do all the things they claim regarding staff training, knowledge and experience.
They provide poor, incorrect or inadequate advice after claiming that they always do so.

They can also be humilliated as a business each time they say one thing but do another or fail to live up to the claims in their brochures, leaflets and literature.

You are absolutely spot on here, which is why I do wonder why people complain about things like this and then carry on spending their hard earned cash on these kind of products.

The only way to make a difference to anything in this world is to hit the supplier in their pockets, or take the time to write to them and follow it up until you get somewhere.

thumps_
24-06-2010, 11:05 PM
Thank you for the clarification.
It used to be that a product on sale had to be suitable for the purpose for which it was marketed. I had assumed that if one marketed a product as a rabbit hutch, it had to be suitable to be used as such, for the average sized rabbit.
ETA or size of rabbit specified.

Snouter
25-06-2010, 05:49 AM
Thank you for the clarification.
It used to be that a product on sale had to be suitable for the purpose for which it was marketed. I had assumed that if one marketed a product as a rabbit hutch, it had to be suitable to be used as such, for the average sized rabbit.
ETA or size of rabbit specified.

In this post, and the previous one by Bucks, I think we are now getting into "fitness for purpose" and the "quality" of the advice provided by P@H (and others).

I certainly don't know the definitive answers.:oops:

Perhaps some lawyers among RU could comment on what would happen if someone asked the pet shop, "Is this suitable for rabbits?" but it did not comply with the best welfare standards. Who decides what is "suitable" and who decides what "fit for purpose" means in the context of rabbit accommodation? Vague phrases like "as large as practicable" are not definitive.

I'm not seeking to defend unacceptable products/practice at pet shops in any way.

If every customer that wanted a hutch asked for ones that were RSPCA/RWA compliant, then there could possibly be progress. However, are pet shops likely to "educate" customers about hutch sizes (or only stock RWA-approved sizes) to the extent that the customer then decides that it's "too expensive" and loses the sale to another shop?

Pet shops are commercial organisations whose primary concerns are the business's survival and profitability. They sell pets and pet products to make a profit. Despite all of the "fluffy bunny" PR and warm words of concern, I think that these aspects are usually secondary to profitability. The phrase, "We like to give our customers a choice" means that customers can "choose" to buy tiny cages, tiny runs, poor food, etc. Giving "choices" to the "uninformed" means that they can make "uninformed choices".:roll:

It would be great if pet shops always asked potential customers for rabbits whether they had fully researched it first and were certain that they knew what they were taking on, could provide life-long care, etc, etc. It would be like asking a sweet shop to discuss obesity guidance to all prospective chocolate bar purchasers.:shock:

Unfortunately, the losers are always the poor rabbits. Often "bought" without prior thought and knowledge, housed in "inadequate" hutches and left to die "without care" when the "interest" evaporates.:cry:

Apologies for rant.:oops:

prettylupin
25-06-2010, 09:01 AM
In this post, and the previous one by Bucks, I think we are now getting into "fitness for purpose" and the "quality" of the advice provided by P@H (and others).



This comes from the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and yes it is pretty vague and impossible to interpret with regard to rabbit welfare standards as there are no minimum hutch size requirements laid down in Law. Burden of proof is on the purchaser also. Too much to prove with no legislation to support. The reality is that any size hutch is 'fit for purpose' because that purpose is to house a rabbit - therefore it just needs to fulfil that category, nothing more. The fact that it may not be fit to house a rabbit within recommended welfare recommendations is irrelevant as far as consumer law is concerned.

The only solution I can see is for manufacturers and retailers to change their attitudes to rabbit welfare for which they would need a financial incentive - as Helen says, people boycotting the smaller hutches.... which without adequate welfare education of the masses will never happen. Or for legislation to reflect the minimum standards and impose these on manufactuers and retailers. This is why the work of the RWAF is so important as they are campaigning and encouraging discussion of welfare issues at all levels. Member support in writing letters, putting on awareness events and boycotting stores/products can only support this effort - there is a long way to go sadly :(

The Duchess
25-06-2010, 10:26 AM
Unfortunately, the losers are always the poor rabbits. Often "bought" without prior thought and knowledge, housed in "inadequate" hutches and left to die "without care" when the "interest" evaporates.:cry:

Apologies for rant.:oops:

Please don't apologise, you are absolutely right.

This is primarily what the Make Mine Chocolate! campaign is trying to highlight. It is a campaign to stop the impulse purchase of rabbits, because we know that rabbits bought on impulse end up unwanted in so many cases after just a few months. People who buy on impulse will be attracted by the Pets at Home ad shown above, which makes having a rabbit seem possible for little outlay. If these kind of packages weren't available and people couldn't just tip up and buy a hutch that will fit in the back of their car, then they may go home, cool off, think about things and choose not to have a rabbit at all.

Anyone who feels strongly about this kind of thing, please, please help us to spread the message.

MMC is not about Easter bunnies, it is about the year round problem which is worse around holiday times. People go out for a drive on a weekend to amuse the kids and find themselves at a shopping park where there is likely to be a big chain store pet shop - the rest is history.

Anyone who wants to try and help, please join our campaign. We have a lot to do, with a very steep hill to climb to try and make people understand what is involved with having a rabbit. Most people would be put off by the reality.

www.makeminechocolate.co.uk

thumps_
25-06-2010, 12:23 PM
Thank you so much Snouter & Pretty lupin for helping me to understand the current thinking.

My personal experience was that as a responsible owner, who knew the basic needs of a bun, I was unable to meet those needs through the products specifically sold for rabbits through pet stores. P@H & Paradise pets are only 2 of the large chain stores here.
Without a computer, I could not access information about suitable alternatives.

The largest hutch & run "Loppy's Loft" (4'x4' run) flat pack @ 180 had several design faults. eg. the private sleeping compartment was too small for a 16 week old medium sized bun.:shock::shock:
My 8'x8' flat pack shed cost 200 at the time. I assume that was profitable. True the mesh for the run is expensive.

We can't expect the general public to know any better, when their total experience is seeing tiny hutches in use, & for sale. I am only different because I'm old.
The home made accommodation in my childhood 50 years ago, was a standard 5'x3' hutch mainly private area, with permanent access to a 12'-15' run for ONE medium sized rabbit, usually a chinchilla from the fur/meat farms. [This is before there were any pet products at all, & vets couldn't neuter buns.] It was far from idyllic.
So you may understand that this issue distresses me deeply, to tears, as it does my parents in their late 80's.

It seems to me to be both in the financial interests of the multimillion pet industry, & the government to perpetuate status quo.

You are so right Pretty Lupin, that it gets more results to praise what can be praised, & to be unemotional & factual, & brief in showing errors.

ETA The tiny ray of hope is that a few tradesmen have provided home made extensions to their own bun's accommodation just from seeing how happy & friendly my free ranging bun is.