Help - I don't know what else to do!!

Hi fellow bunny lovers

I seriously need some help and advice because I don't know what else to do. A couple of months ago my beloved bunny, Beany Woo, started to act differently in that she started peeing in the kitchen and also around her trays. I was initially convinced that the peeing around the tray (and under it) were for the purposes of marking her territory and peeing in the kitchen was because she wasn't getting her own way (ie not getting food when she is begging). This had been pretty consistent and then she started pooing everywhere as well, just pooing wherever she is so that I am constantly following her cleaning up. Recently it has become much worse and she is peeing and pooing everywhere so I have just been confining her to one room as I can no longer cope.

I have had her to the vets to check her over, the vet examined her and said she appears to be in very good health. She has had precautionery antibiotics in case of infection and panacur in case of EC but none of these had made the slightest difference.

Has anyone else experienced any similar problems as I do not know what to do. The only thing I can think of is that she is being territorial - we have a lizard also which shares a room with her in a vivarium and when he has been out it gets worse. I have tried disciplining her shouting no and clapping hands when I see her do it and chase her to her tray, putting soiled tissue in tray - but to be honest she couldn't care less.

I am so frustrated as prior to this I spent about 6 months scubbing carpets and cleaning her because of sticky poo problems. I finally got her dietry balance right which cured it and then she starts with this. I suffer from fibromyalgia and I am constantly fatigued and in pain and I can't take much more. I love her to pieces, she is my little baby and I so much want to make it right.

I would be most grateful for any advice

Is she spayed?

Hmm not sure I like the idea of precautionary antibiotics, don't think rabbits should really be on antibiotics unless it is essential they can upset the balance of their stomach.... is your vet very rabbit savvy?

NicolaTervit said:

Is she spayed?

Hmm not sure I like the idea of precautionary antibiotics, don't think rabbits should really be on antibiotics unless it is essential they can upset the balance of their stomach.... is your vet very rabbit savvy?

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Just what I would say!

Yes, sorry meant to say she was spayed at 6 months she is now a couple months over 2 years old.

The vet seemed good (compared to others I have seen) and because she has had an increase in drinking water too she gave antibiotics in case of a kidney infection.

hmm... mine sometimes miss the tray. Or could be spring fever, hormones playing up? I know she's spayed but her hormones could still affect her? i would still be reluctant to put her onto antibiotics unless a definite diagnosis has been made...... but if you're confident in your vet you are best to follow her advice.

Unfortunately it is a lot more than her missing the tray - you can see with her that it is an obvious choice. I believe that it is behavioural but I don't know what to do to tackle it. For example when I confine her to a room now as soon as she gets a chance to get out she runs into another room and wees either on the floor or the sofa and then runs of kicking up her back feet when I shout at her.

It took me a while to figure out why she was peeing under her tray and it was because her food dishes were next to it and she likes to pee around them so that they are stood in pee. I just can't stop her I have tried all I can think of.

if its deliberate rather than a loss of control could this be a kidney infection? I've never had experience with one so not sure but probably worth asking your vet, I would have thought a kidney infection meant a loss of bladder control rather than deliberate peeing..

She sounds as though she feels her territory is threatened (i have had the same thing happen in a neutered doe).

This may be because she can smell something else outside it or inside the territory.

The vet gave the antibiotics in case of infection and said that if it were a kidney infection I would see some change within a couple of days. I am due to take her back tomorrow but there hasn't been any change since the antibiotics.

I personally think it is deliberate as I know her personality and most of these incidents seem to be as a result of not getting her own way, very few (maybe only 2 of which I have witnessed) seem to have been an accident. However I have been open to the fact that it may be half and half and flirted with the thought that maybe the antibiotics could help, but it doesn't seem to have any effect.

I know before you mentioned that they still have some hormones even though they have been spayed. I agree with this as I notice with her that she still sometimes circles my husband's feet and follows him everywhere they way she used to before she was spayed. I don't know if this has something/anything to do with it - as I say at the moment I am just desperate for answers. She had always been such a clean little girl and now she is just so dirty!!

I don't know what other people think about the antibiotics and whether or not it could be an infection if its deliberate... i dont want to advise you too radically in case im wrong!

She is still on the antibiotics at the moment, last day. As I said she is due back at the vets tomorrow. However, she has said that I need to consider whether it is behavioural and try that first and she appears to be fine. The next steps are more intrusive on her she would need to have blood tests for which she would have to be put under to draw the blood and I am not happy to do that unless I feel it is absolutely essential to her wellbeing.

Hi, I agree with Parsnipbun, but I also think that it is likely that there is not just one cause but perhaps a combination of things going on here. I think the way that you respond to this behaviour is critical in it becoming self-perpetuating. We went through something 'fairly' similar but not identical, also with a spayed doe, but when we first adoped her, not now, she is very good now. But I have ME and I totally understand how at your wits end you must feel - we felt the same. I just couldn't cope with all the constant clearing up and washing of towels and blankets on a daily basis.
Provided your vet has RULED out COMPLETELY this being a health issue and this really is the most important thing, I would personally, in your position, seek help from a rabbit behaviour expert as to me this seems like you could do with outside help. It helped us no end, not so much in terms of finding the solution - this we discovered by ourselves over the course of the next few months - year, but in terms of having someone to talk all the issues through with, to get it off your chest, and with someone who really understands rabbit behaviour. The most important thing we learnt from the experience was to change our expectations and relax about the whole issue and to recognise that our bun was just being a bunny and trying to tell us something that was so important to her, and we just weren't listening properly. It is so hard when you are so tired and frustrated with it all. Certainly my frustration with our bunny was making things worse that I will freely admit. When I chilled out about it all and stopped reacting to the behaviour, but also when we came up with our own solutions to counteract her insecurity in her environment and tried things out that worked... the situation improved drastically. Often solving one issue can have a knock on effect on others. We were dealing however with a very nervous fearful rescue bun and every bun is different.

I would recommend contacting either Emma Magnus or Dr Anne McBride, you will need a vet referral first.
http://www.rabbitbehaviour.co.uk/contact.htm
We were lucky in that Dr McBride is local to us and we had a home visit.

and I agree with Pretty Lupin! perhaps you could get a telephone referral for Anne McBride if you are not close to her?

It really is worth working it through with your rabbit - she seems like she is unhappy about something.

Prettylupin, thanks so much for posting this reply. It is great to know that someone understands - I am close to tears!! I shall discuss the referral with my vet tomorrow it sounds like a great idea. If she is unhappy a.bout something then I certainly want to put it right for her.

I would have to have a telephone consultation as I live in Rotherham, South Yorkshire. I could try and make a video of her as it says.

Thanks so much for the link and for the information, just having something else to try makes all the difference.

If an infection is ruled out I would try going back to basics with litter training, so confine her to a small area for a while, put paper down, if she goes on the paper put it in her litter tray and clean the area with white vinegar, I'd try this for a few days, only giving her more space when she has worked out where her tray is . Do you have hay in her litter tray?

Doe Eyes said:

Prettylupin, thanks so much for posting this reply. It is great to know that someone understands - I am close to tears!! I shall discuss the referral with my vet tomorrow it sounds like a great idea. If she is unhappy a.bout something then I certainly want to put it right for her.

I would have to have a telephone consultation as I live in Rotherham, South Yorkshire. I could try and make a video of her as it says.

Thanks so much for the link and for the information, just having something else to try makes all the difference.

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No worries, I know exactly how you feel.

Here are some things to try in the interim:
I certainly would not confine her anymore, in my experience, if she already knows how to use her litter tray and the behaviour is 'for your benefit' and I believe you, such as when you let her out after confining her and she rushes over and instantly does a pee in another room - yes, this is for your benefit. But something important to realise is that it is not to spite you, it is to tell you something - she knows she gets your attention! I know it must feel like it is to spite you when you are so tired and fed up of it all, it was certainly how we felt, but the first thing to understand is that (1) rabbits do not have that cognitive ability, and (2) unless responses are immediate, they have absolutely no bearing on a rabbit's behaviour. If you confine her even more, she will just feel more frustrated and less able to communicate to you how she is feeling and from personal experience this just precipitates the problem and does nothing for your relationship with each other.
She has learnt to use a trick that gets her a response from you - you clap your hands or shout at her the second she displays the behaviour - in her eyes this is a result. At the outset there is every chance that the original peeing beside the tray and around it was due to an infection or some stress or worry she was experiencing that was happening at that time, however, if the response from you is the same each time this quickly becomes a learned response and the behaviour can continue, even though the original trigger for the behaviour may now be absent.

My first piece of advice is to completely ignore this behaviour - do not look at her when she pees on the floor in the other room, do not react, think to yourself calm thoughts and do not go to clear it up immediately, in fact I would do this when she has left the room and you can go in there and clean it up with the door shut where she can not see you. In my experience... the behaviour to get a response from you may initally escalate!!! Be prepared for this... Poppy used to actually come and stand in front of us while we were watching tv as peeing in the corner or elsewhere began to get no response.. so she decided if she stood directly in front of us it might work! We had to work hard not to laugh and concentrate on the telly! :roll::lol: Just keep ignoring it, I have found scolding unwanted behaviour a complete waste of time. Instead, focus on rewarding good behaviour.
Get a routine going for her, as you would a small child, bedtimes, up times,feed times, shut in times and stick to it, it will lessen her frustration. If she does not feel secure in her environment peeing is one way to tell you this. Think of ways to make her space feel more secure, don't shut her in - let her choose where she feels safest to be if possible or make that place her shut in place for night times/or when you are out etc. We found that tunnels and boxes placed near the litter tray add to security internally whilst bun is in a vulnerable position - on the loo! Don't be neurotic about her tray habits... if you catch her using it - give her a treat instantly and tell her she is a good girl, if you catch her not using it - ignore it.
These are just some ideas to be going on with. Every bun is so different and what worked for ours may not work for yours but for us it was a question of trial and error of new things - study her habits closely and see what you can do to increase her internal security. Good luck

Doe Eyes said:

A couple of months ago my beloved bunny, Beany Woo, started to act differently in that she started peeing in the kitchen and also around her trays.

The only thing I can think of is that she is being territorial - we have a lizard also which shares a room with her in a vivarium and when he has been out it gets worse. I have tried disciplining her shouting no and clapping hands when I see her do it and chase her to her tray, putting soiled tissue in tray - but to be honest she couldn't care less.

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I'm just wondering what could have been happening around the time this all started? Was she ill or had she been ill? Had you been away or did you move her or change her layout to how it was previously? Is this when your lizard arrived or has he/she always lived in the kitchen with Beany Woo? I'm wondering if the lizard is part of her distress? What sort of lizard is it? (Not that I know much about lizards but it is one which might be seen by her as a threat... predatory or in terms of taking over bunny burrows in the wild?)
Is there anyway that Beany Woo could have a room that is not with the lizard or you could move the lizard to another room? Have you tried this to see if it helps at all? I am certain it is more than one issue, but finding the original source for her change in behaviour may be quite signifcant.
I think it is also worth bearing in mind that it is Spring and this behaviour began coinciding with the sudden increase in natural light levels. You need to bear in mind that regardless of removing the ovaries and uterine horns, buns still secrete other hormones from other glands.. pituitary etc. in response to increased light levels in Spring and this may be exacerbating any existing territorial issues.

I've found that using hay in the litter tray has been the one and only thing that has truly convinced charlie that he should only pee there.
He has the odd accident, but is good 99% of the time now.

When he was on woodshavings, he'd be good for a while and then just change his mind and start peeing everywhere again.

So if your bunny isn't on hay for litter at the moment, I'd start with that!

Hope you can resolve it soon :wave:

I find this a very interesting thread as I have three rabbits in the same room as three lizards (bluetongue skinks). I don't find any conflict between the species. Each morning when the buns houses are cleaned out at least two of the lizards will come to the glass front of their enclosures and watch. They seem to take a real interest in the proceedings, especially filling the bowls with hay; so much so that we refer to it as having an audience for the "hay ceremony".

Only one of the buns was in the room when the lizards arrived but shared with two others who both passed away late last year. Our male lop Liam would watch the lizards from the floor and one of them would frequently sit at the non-heated end of her enclosure and look down into Liam's hutch for quite long periods, apparently watching him. On a few occasions Liam was lifted up to the lizards height and they would come over to the glass directly in front of him. There was no fear or animosity in either party, just curiosity.

I am just wondering whether Beany Woo had the room to herself before the lizard arrived. I have found with indoor rabbits they seem to divide the parts of the house into three categories: mine, yours and ours. They can tend to be a little possessive of that which they determine as their part. Our buns have respected that part which they know as the hoomins' to the extent of sitting at the doorway if the door is left open inadvertently; except for the occasional mad dash into the bedroom, run a circle around and under the bed and then return with a binky down the passageway. However, they don't like to have things changed in their room and will regularly thump when let out until the status quo is returned. I believe they like routine and order in their lives.

This has probably done nothing to help resolve the current problem other than to hopefully show that it is possible for diverse species to share.

Lobo said:

I have found with indoor rabbits they seem to divide the parts of the house into three categories: mine, yours and ours. They can tend to be a little possessive of that which they determine as their part.

I believe they like routine and order in their lives.

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Most definitely!

I think that the OP actually takes lizard out and exercises him/her in the kitchen though??? Or did I get that wrong? :? That might set up a different dynamic to just being in the same room?