Newbie-- EC--sorry I posted on wrong forum before

Hello,
What a terrific forum!
Sorry if I've missed the advice on a previous thread-- I've read loads of the posts and found them very helpful but need a bit more advice, please. We are heartbroken and worried.
Bandit is 9, half Netherland Dwarf, nearly blind with cataracts. He developed EC symptoms a few days after recent tooth rasping operation. Hindlegs were very bad (at worst point he dragged his hind quarters) -- after 28days Panacur they improved a lot though he was still a bit weak and wobbly. But a week after the Panacur was finished we noticed hindlegs getting more wobbly again and we started another course of Panacure 28 days with metacam 4 drops once daily. (He is tiny and quite thin-- 1.5 kg.)
His legs are somewhat better but he definitely is not 100%.Still eating OK and running around but much less bouncy.
Unfortunately our vet is willing but not terribly clued about rabbits and Bandit is incredibly stressed by going far in the car and we don't have any better vet nearby. Earlier we tried to get advice through RWA but the vet didn't respond to our vet's Fax.
Bandit lives with Rose, and Bruce Lee lives separately. They all have enormous hutch and cage areas, and paved and grassed pens with some shared areas so it is just imposssible to clear urine or even thorougly clean the environment. Rose and Bruce Lee were given 9 day Panacur-- showed no symptoms, but both younger.
Bandit had Baytril after tooth op, but I stopped at about 13 days. I thought the Bayril and the Panacure would upset gut flora, so waited til they were finished before giving a tube of fibreplex probiotic.
Some people seem to think rabbit should be on Baytil when EC being treated, to prevent secondary infections due to low immune system. Bandit seem so underpar I don't know if Baytril would drag him down more now, with losing his gut flora etc-- or should I ask vet to prescribe?

Do others with EC find they have to keep repeating the Panacure and metacam? How long can a bunny take this without damage?Could anyone please advise?

Bandit is also terribly matted with gluey urine on elbows and hind legs-- (he is very possessive of Rose and chases her and sprays a lot. )The matts seem to be uncomfortable and he struggles to pull them out. But when I recently bathed, combed him and blew him dry with hair dryer he was very stressed-- in fact I think that was just before the EC symptoms appeared.(I used Hibiscrub in water and rinsed well, as suggested by vet for another rabbbit )I don't know if bathing is too stressful-- but it's very difficult and hurts to comb these gluey matts out.
Bunnies are so lovely and it breaks our hearts to see them suffer.
Shebunkin
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I dont have any advice as i havent dealt with E.C before, but wanted to welcome you to the forum and i hope bandit feels better very soon. do you have any photos of him?

xxxx

Hi there :wave:

I'm sorry to hear about your lovely bunny Bandit and his EC, he sounds like a super bun and i'm sorry that you are so worried about him, as you must be with his symptoms. Can I just say what a super age he is, you must have looked after him very well
Cataracts are common in older buns, but cataracts can also be linked to EC - the spores can erupt in the eye and cause this, so i'm wondering if Bandit had an exisiting EC infection, which simply flared up after his dental due to the stress on his body both on his immune system and pyschologically. I think at age 9 he is doing very well to cope with this illness and not surprisingly his immune system will not be as strong as a younger bun and healing is bound to take longer in this respect.

I have no personal experience of EC but the usual course of panacur is 28 days, however, those with a severe active infection can repeat this 28 days as necessary I understand, 56 day courses are not uncommon.
I hear that bleach cleaning is not going to be fully full proof with a bun that is spraying to eradicate spores, you can only do your best to limit reinfection in this respect.
Because the majority of the damage comes from inflammation of the nervous system - the use of a NSAID like metacam ongoing does seem to be essential. Although only 1.5kg he may be able to tolerate a higher dose than 4 drops - although at his age his renal/liver function (if you were to have his bloods checked) may mean that this lower dose is more appropriate to prevent impairment of function of these organs - a delicate balancing act in a bun his age. But very often metacam can be used for years - if, as I say, buns's kidneys are up to it. Liz (Hugo's there) is very experienced with older buns and buns with disabilites and might be able to give you some more specific advice as she runs a rabbit retirement rescue.

As to bathing, I would avoid this, it is very stressful for a rabbit. I would try to tease the mats out or cut them off (watch his skin) and use baby wipes or a damp flannel to clean him if need be. If he feels dizzy from his EC he may prefer to be handled at ground level to prevent sudden movement or lifted slowly on to your lap.
Antibiotics are a good idea to prevent secondary infection but I don't know how long for really... hopefully someone with experience will advise.
Perhaps your vet could email or fax another exotic vet for further advice? Bristol Vet school has a specialist rabbit clinic who offer advice to other vets, as do many other exotic referral vet services. Whereabouts in the country are you?

As prettylupin has said, the normal course of panacur is 28 days, but can be repeated. My rabbit Vinnie had three courses of it because every time the treatment was stopped the symptoms reappeared. With the panacur she also had baytril and metacam, the first course of baytril made a difference, and after her relapse she was put on a much longer course which made a vast improvement.

Cleaning is difficult as the spores exist in urine and can get to a lot of places if he sprays. Bleaching is recommended on day 21 and 28 of panacur treatment. I soaked litter tray, bowls, toys etc in a bucket of diluted bleach then rinsed well. I also replaced the cheap vinyl flooring I had on the floor as Vin lived inside.

It is definitely stressful for your rabbit to be bathed, and is difficult to keep him clean. Is he using a litter tray or is he incontinent, getting it all over his fur? Matts are especially difficult, cut off as much as possible, if you're uncomfortable about it you could ask to vet as rabbits have such delicate skin. Urine scald is also something you need to watch out for.
When Vinnie was incontinent we put her in childrens nappies with the elasticated edge cut off, this kept the worst of it away from her fur. However if he lives with a partner I wouldn't recommend it as she could she them.

An alternative to bathing is to put a small amount of water in a section of your shower/bath (if you're using the bath, block off a bit so that bunny dosen't panic) and let them splash around in it for a while. Put a towel on the bottom of the bath as a non-slip surface for them. As long as you sit beside him and keep him calm this can get the worst of the rubbish off and is much less stressful that you forcing him to have a bath. If he starts to scrabble and try to get out, let him. Then you can mop the most off with a towel and keep him inside until the fur dries off, give him a nice pile of towels and that soaks up a lot of the moisture. A few hours in a heated house and he'll dry off nicely without the hairdryer.

The other thing I would say to you is to watch his weight. Vinnie didn't like being picked up and as she as so fluffy I didn't realise how much weight she lost at the start. I was told to give Vin as much as she would eat to keep her strength up - she dropped down to just over a kilo at her worst point, where she was 3kg before :shock:

All the best and keep us updated.

Thank you for advice!

Just posted a little photo of the 3--Bandit is the little white bun. Bruce Lee (the Dutch) can only join them when I can supervise, as Bandit treats him as a rival but is too little and old to carry off the role of top rabbit! We started by fostering BL but ended up unable to part with him.

Just back from the vet. She felt Bandit's caecum was a bit conjested and gave a metaproclimide injection, and sent us off with Zantac to give by syringe.We are to continue Panacure and Metacam. Bandit suddenly perked up a bit on return and has been eating grass in the corral. Maybe the spongy caecum explains why he has been a bit off colour. But definitely wobbly and still needing the Panacur.

Thank you all very much for advice. I will avoid bathing or use the suggested towel and shallow water.

I can't bleach the paving or grass, or even the inside of the very large hutch/ cage area-- just keep the bedding as clean as poss. Bandit and Rose are not litter trained-- Rose pees everywhere! Because they are outside except for when in our front room for convalescence we can't really litter train now.

I am glad to hear the Panacur and metacam is well tolerated and can be continued for some time without risk (and vet confirmed what you said!) She didn't think we needed antibiotic at present. I will give more probiotic Fibreplex to get gut flora in a good state.

Didn't manage to post a photo but will keep trying.

update on Bandit and reply to suggestions

Hello again,
Thinking about the spread of spores and a suggestion that I separate Bandit from the others. I don't think I can separate Bandit from Rose-- I think it would kill him. But I will separate Bandit and Rose's grazing area from Bruce Lee's area.(Living areas already separate)
I will continue Bandit's Panacur and Metacam for 28 days from now, and start Rose and Bruce Lee on the 9day course about a week before Bandit's Panacur finishes. Then keep the two lots separate for another month. I imagine Rose and Bruce Lee may be carriers, though already given the 9day dose, but have decided the best I can do is try to prevent Banit getting re-infected as he is the oldest and frailest. The other two are strong, and if in future they show any EC symptoms I'll know to start the Panacur immediately.
Thank you for the reassurance about Metacam-- I will continue.I amgiving 5 drops now as his weight OK-- only a tiny loss since pre-op on the vets scales.

Bandit has perked up a lot with the Zantac the vet prescribed. I think maybe his quietness was due to sluggish gut or borderline GI stasis. I'd given Rabbit Recovery a few days before, when he went off his food, but then he started eating again so I thought he was OK.(I wonder if the Metacam slows it down a bit like people on NSAIDs)
He's now grazing voaciously and chasing Rose around and being a pest-- in short back to normal apart from slightly wobbly back legs.
Yes I think the cataracts which he has had for years, may be from EC but vet dubious.
It was Bristol clinic my vet approached for help but they wouldn’t advise unless we were sending the rabbit for a consultation. Maybe I'll talk to the RWA helpline again. Thank you all for your support, advice and excellent suggestions.
Shebunkin

In terms of cleaning the paving, it might benefit from some freshly boiled water being poured over it (be careful of your feet!!)

cleaning paving

Thanks Sarah P that's a good idea. There's a place Bandit often marks on the paving-- I'll pour hot boiled water over it. Shebunkin