Mistletoe Snowgoose: (On-going) Changed title as Thread drifted . .

Ok we now have a diagnosis for Mistletoe . He has eaten something very fibrous some of which is lodged in the duodenum causing a thickening there (the vet thinks its garden string but I think it is a mass of undigested apple tree bark as there is no string in our garden - but they had a lot of apple tree cuttings a few days before he came down with bloat).

He has passed quite a bit of it (after being on a drip for a day) BUT that was several days ago and some of it is still there despite having subcuts, metaclopromide etc etc

The vet now says we can either play a waiting game or operate.
It may come down on its own as the rest obviously has OR it may not shift.
She is worried that if it stays there it may cause a real blockage - or even a blockage as it comes down.
Once blocked we would have to operate immediately (as blockage equals death); which may not be possible (say overnight or on the Bank Hol):
but as everyone knows intestinal ops on rabbits do not have a high success rate.The risk is of course adhesion or internal bleed.

So do we go for an operation tomorrow morning or not???

After Damson's amazing survival two weeks ago, I feel we would be really pushing it to try a stomach op. on Mistletoe. but would feel dreadful if he then got obstructed over the weekend . . .

Have till 8.30am tomorrow to decide -

Life is never easy is it . . .

I haven't got any advice, not having had this experience, but I wish you the best of luck, whichever option you choose. What a tough call. Sending huge vibes your way. x

Oh dear ............................ :?

The duodenum's not the best place for it to be stuck

I dont envy your dilemma and I hope that whatever you decide MS will pull through xx

As I type Mistletoe is happily skipping around and chomping on dandelions . . . obviously completely unaware of the danger lurking in his duodenum . . and the difficult choice we are having to make.

I am wondering whether an image might help make up our minds as it may show how big/small the piece is.

What does your vet feel about liquid paraffin as a last resort? I personally have never used it for GI issues and have read some contraindications of its use... but have once had a vet mention it to me as a last resort.

I think I would be inclined to continue meds for a few more days and wait and see if it breaks down and comes out on its own, but I'm sure you will make the right decision whatever you decide, it's not a decision I envy at all.
Poor Mistletoe snowgoose... he's not had much luck with his tum. Lots of vibes x

How about an ultrasound first?

prettylupin said:

How about an ultrasound first?

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I think that's what he had today :?

Jack's-Jane said:

I think that's what he had today :?

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I thought she was going to but actually she just palpated again today - she had noticed the duodenum thickening by palpating the other day and had him in again to check if she could still feel it. She then examined a 'stringy poo' I had taken in and came up with the string theory (which I think is fibrous apple bark).

I think she feels she can feel it well enough and so did not image. Do you think it would help>

parsnipbun said:

I thought she was going to but actually she just palpated again today - she had noticed the duodenum thickening by palpating the other day and had him in again to check if she could still feel it. She then examined a 'stringy poo' I had taken in and came up with the string theory (which I think is fibrous apple bark).

I think she feels she can feel it well enough and so did not image. Do you think it would help>

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Oh right, well I dont think I'd want him opened up without an U/S or Xray first :?

If it helps, Thumps had a "nasty episode" (obstructed gullet in reptrospect) a few days later he passed 1 thread of gardening twine with 11 poops on it. I assumed a bird had dropped it when gathering nesting material.
The point is that string is easily recognizable as string. I think you are right about bark fiber.
We've had an ultrasound 2 days ago. In good hands it's an amazing diagnostic tool. Marie could even see thickening of the caecal wall. No sedation/GA was required. Unless there are good contraindications I think that is the best next step.

thumps_ said:

If it helps, Thumps had a "nasty episode" (obstructed gullet in reptrospect) a few days later he passed 1 thread of gardening twine with 11 poops on it. I assumed a bird had dropped it when gathering nesting material.
The point is that string is easily recognizable as string. I think you are right about bark fiber.
We've had an ultrasound 2 days ago. In good hands it's an amazing diagnostic tool. Marie could even see thickening of the caecal wall. No sedation/GA was required. Unless there are good contraindications I think that is the best next step.

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MS has passed about 15-20 strings of poop, each with about 6-8 poos on!!!!
I did show them to another vet but she just thought they were stringy poos as part of the symptom of stassis and not the cause (am more inclined to trust todays vet with actual diagnosis). Today she pulled apart the one example I had left and found this stringy stuff (I think it is fibrous bark).
because she can feel thickening I think she didn't bother U/S - but maybe I should insist . the other stringy poos he passed were after being on a drip for the day and I wonder if its worth trying that . .

I agree that an ultrasound would be the most helpful next step if appropriate, to really see what is going on inside before deciding on surgery.

I have always felt that hydration is key to getting stuff moving through the guts and out, fibre helps loads, but sufficient hydration does remarkable things in my limited experience. I do hope all goes well in the morning.

yes - am wondering whether to ask them to drip him again for a few hours - only thing is that if it shfits it but it blocks it elsewhere then after midday tomorow we are reduced to emergency vets until Tuesday (and specialist rabbit surgery vet not back till Weds :shock

Why doe sthis always happen at Bank Hols??????

Pretty lupin is spot on about hydration.

Parsnip bun, I've an old cider apple tree, with no dwarfing stock. I took some old thick bark. I can't get the fiber to "spin" into a thread, whatever I do with it. (I'm not brave enough to chew it but tried working it & using spit - forgive me)

15-20 strings of poops with 6-8 poops on sounds very much to me as if the "fiber" is rabbit fur. I'm well used to these from time to time, but not in such large numbers. As long as the colon is working well, they just come out in a long line no probs. If the gut is on the slow side, (going in or coming out of stasis) they can loose their alignment inside the bun, get tangled up, & be difficult to pass. The fur connecting the poops can look medium/ dark brown from ceacotroph material, just like very dark jute string.

I'm truely sorry to add to your worries, but in your shoes I'd like much more information, & a clearer diagnosis before considering an abdominal operation.
You are very much in my thoughts. All the best, & please keep us updated.

Yes certainly fur would present in this way, we certainly get strings of poops with Poppy bunny as she has such long silk fur, and we brush her daily! :shock:
I am wondering in fact, if the fur has been lining the walls of MS's gut for some time during this Spring moult, and the sudden intake of apple tree indigestible fibre has scoured the gut walls and shifted this fur?

I only comment on this because when we fostered a bun before he went to a new home he had never eaten hay, only P@H nuggets and the odd carrot. He was a young bun, perhaps 6 months, but his droppings were always very small and dark. We taught him to eat hay over several days and a few days later he passed a huge load of stringy poops...that his owner (whom we kept in touch with) had never seen him do before, his droppings from the first day he ate the hay increased significantly in size due to the indigestible waste fibre bulking his waste droppings. My theory, and it is only a theory, was that this fur had been building up in his guts and the sudden intake of fibre bulked his droppings, increased his motility and stretched the walls of his intestines and scoured the fur out along with it.

Perhaps an ultrasound could be done over the weekend?

What are his symptoms ATM? :wave:

I think vets are sometimes a little too keen to opt for surgery, when things may right themselves if given time. I've had rabbits in virtual stasis for weeks on end, who have gone on to make a full recovery (not common, but it does happen).

Personally I'd only opt for surgery on the guts/stomach if the rabbit was in pain and was at immanent risk of death....but that's just my personal feelings.

Good luck whatever you decide xx

prettylupin said:

I agree that an ultrasound would be the most helpful next step if appropriate, to really see what is going on inside before deciding on surgery.

I have always felt that hydration is key to getting stuff moving through the guts and out, fibre helps loads, but sufficient hydration does remarkable things in my limited experience. I do hope all goes well in the morning.

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Completely agree with this.

Hi everyone . . many thanks for everyone's suggestions. There is no hair (or very little hair) in the stringy poos - its just not hair! I also have dissected the pooh and its not hair. Its strange sort of fibrous very light brown stuff - the colour of mmmmm . . . very light brown cardboard (and no he hasn;t access to cardboard).

I tried separating fibres on the apple inner bark and did make stringish (My experience of prehistoric life reconstructions may have helped me here!! we made baskets of birch bark peelings and string of all sorts of things!!!) . . but thats not to say that that is what it was.

We decided against an op for now - the vet says that it os a very difficult call as he may pass it without blocking . . or he may not. Imaging - she really feels that she has enough info from feeling the area (which apparently she can feel quite clearly and definitely) and looking at poohs.

I am subcut fluiding twice a day and trying to encourage lots of wet green weed eating. At present he looks s healthy as anything!

Many thanks again to everyone for concern and suggestions . . another tense weekend.

On the plus side Damson has gained 300 gms!!!!! (now weighs 1.9 - was 1.6 immediately after kidney op! 1.8 for a while before that.). He'll be a chubby little thing soon!

PS I may push her on the imaging again next week IF he stays healthy BUT she can still feel the duodenal thickening.

because she has now done quite a few gut ops with success I think she is less cautious than I am (or she used to be)!!!!

I'm so pleased you've got the fiber aspect sorted out parsnip bun. My sincere apologies for worrying you.
It goes to show I'd be hopeless in Neolithic times, despite my fascination about how folk lived then. I only cut the bark into thin strips & used a meat hammer as a pulper. Obviously a bad model of rabbit teeth! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

My every good wish for you & yours, & everything crossed that Mistletow S will pass all this under his own steam.
I don't know why buns always seem to be ill at w/e & bank holidays either.
My boy is good at needing a dental just before a w/e. :roll: