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parsnipbun
30-04-2010, 07:47 PM
Ok we now have a diagnosis for Mistletoe . He has eaten something very fibrous some of which is lodged in the duodenum causing a thickening there (the vet thinks its garden string but I think it is a mass of undigested apple tree bark as there is no string in our garden - but they had a lot of apple tree cuttings a few days before he came down with bloat).

He has passed quite a bit of it (after being on a drip for a day) BUT that was several days ago and some of it is still there despite having subcuts, metaclopromide etc etc

The vet now says we can either play a waiting game or operate.
It may come down on its own as the rest obviously has OR it may not shift.
She is worried that if it stays there it may cause a real blockage - or even a blockage as it comes down.
Once blocked we would have to operate immediately (as blockage equals death); which may not be possible (say overnight or on the Bank Hol):
but as everyone knows intestinal ops on rabbits do not have a high success rate.The risk is of course adhesion or internal bleed.

So do we go for an operation tomorrow morning or not???

After Damson's amazing survival two weeks ago, I feel we would be really pushing it to try a stomach op. on Mistletoe. but would feel dreadful if he then got obstructed over the weekend . . .

Have till 8.30am tomorrow to decide -

Life is never easy is it . . .

Blackberry & Co
30-04-2010, 07:50 PM
I haven't got any advice, not having had this experience, but I wish you the best of luck, whichever option you choose. What a tough call. Sending huge vibes your way. x

Jack's-Jane
30-04-2010, 08:38 PM
Oh dear ............................ :?

The duodenum's not the best place for it to be stuck :cry:

I dont envy your dilemma and I hope that whatever you decide MS will pull through xx

parsnipbun
30-04-2010, 08:45 PM
As I type Mistletoe is happily skipping around and chomping on dandelions . . . obviously completely unaware of the danger lurking in his duodenum . . and the difficult choice we are having to make.

I am wondering whether an image might help make up our minds as it may show how big/small the piece is.

prettylupin
30-04-2010, 08:46 PM
What does your vet feel about liquid paraffin as a last resort? I personally have never used it for GI issues and have read some contraindications of its use... but have once had a vet mention it to me as a last resort.

I think I would be inclined to continue meds for a few more days and wait and see if it breaks down and comes out on its own, but I'm sure you will make the right decision whatever you decide, it's not a decision I envy at all.
Poor Mistletoe snowgoose... he's not had much luck with his tum. Lots of vibes x

prettylupin
30-04-2010, 08:48 PM
How about an ultrasound first?

Jack's-Jane
30-04-2010, 09:35 PM
How about an ultrasound first?

I think that's what he had today :?

parsnipbun
30-04-2010, 09:43 PM
I think that's what he had today :?

I thought she was going to but actually she just palpated again today - she had noticed the duodenum thickening by palpating the other day and had him in again to check if she could still feel it. She then examined a 'stringy poo' I had taken in and came up with the string theory (which I think is fibrous apple bark).

I think she feels she can feel it well enough and so did not image. Do you think it would help>

Jack's-Jane
30-04-2010, 09:47 PM
I thought she was going to but actually she just palpated again today - she had noticed the duodenum thickening by palpating the other day and had him in again to check if she could still feel it. She then examined a 'stringy poo' I had taken in and came up with the string theory (which I think is fibrous apple bark).

I think she feels she can feel it well enough and so did not image. Do you think it would help>

Oh right, well I dont think I'd want him opened up without an U/S or Xray first :?

thumps_
30-04-2010, 10:17 PM
If it helps, Thumps had a "nasty episode" (obstructed gullet in reptrospect) a few days later he passed 1 thread of gardening twine with 11 poops on it. I assumed a bird had dropped it when gathering nesting material.
The point is that string is easily recognizable as string. I think you are right about bark fiber.
We've had an ultrasound 2 days ago. In good hands it's an amazing diagnostic tool. Marie could even see thickening of the caecal wall. No sedation/GA was required. Unless there are good contraindications I think that is the best next step.

parsnipbun
30-04-2010, 10:25 PM
If it helps, Thumps had a "nasty episode" (obstructed gullet in reptrospect) a few days later he passed 1 thread of gardening twine with 11 poops on it. I assumed a bird had dropped it when gathering nesting material.
The point is that string is easily recognizable as string. I think you are right about bark fiber.
We've had an ultrasound 2 days ago. In good hands it's an amazing diagnostic tool. Marie could even see thickening of the caecal wall. No sedation/GA was required. Unless there are good contraindications I think that is the best next step.

MS has passed about 15-20 strings of poop, each with about 6-8 poos on!!!!
I did show them to another vet but she just thought they were stringy poos as part of the symptom of stassis and not the cause (am more inclined to trust todays vet with actual diagnosis). Today she pulled apart the one example I had left and found this stringy stuff (I think it is fibrous bark).
because she can feel thickening I think she didn't bother U/S - but maybe I should insist . the other stringy poos he passed were after being on a drip for the day and I wonder if its worth trying that . .

prettylupin
30-04-2010, 10:31 PM
I agree that an ultrasound would be the most helpful next step if appropriate, to really see what is going on inside before deciding on surgery.

I have always felt that hydration is key to getting stuff moving through the guts and out, fibre helps loads, but sufficient hydration does remarkable things in my limited experience. I do hope all goes well in the morning. :)

parsnipbun
30-04-2010, 11:24 PM
yes - am wondering whether to ask them to drip him again for a few hours - only thing is that if it shfits it but it blocks it elsewhere then after midday tomorow we are reduced to emergency vets until Tuesday (and specialist rabbit surgery vet not back till Weds :shock:)

Why doe sthis always happen at Bank Hols??????

thumps_
30-04-2010, 11:38 PM
Pretty lupin is spot on about hydration.

Parsnip bun, I've an old cider apple tree, with no dwarfing stock. I took some old thick bark. I can't get the fiber to "spin" into a thread, whatever I do with it. (I'm not brave enough to chew it but tried working it & using spit - forgive me)

15-20 strings of poops with 6-8 poops on sounds very much to me as if the "fiber" is rabbit fur. I'm well used to these from time to time, but not in such large numbers. As long as the colon is working well, they just come out in a long line no probs. If the gut is on the slow side, (going in or coming out of stasis) they can loose their alignment inside the bun, get tangled up, & be difficult to pass. The fur connecting the poops can look medium/ dark brown from ceacotroph material, just like very dark jute string.

I'm truely sorry to add to your worries, but in your shoes I'd like much more information, & a clearer diagnosis before considering an abdominal operation.
You are very much in my thoughts. All the best, & please keep us updated.

prettylupin
30-04-2010, 11:54 PM
Yes certainly fur would present in this way, we certainly get strings of poops with Poppy bunny as she has such long silk fur, and we brush her daily! :shock:
I am wondering in fact, if the fur has been lining the walls of MS's gut for some time during this Spring moult, and the sudden intake of apple tree indigestible fibre has scoured the gut walls and shifted this fur?

I only comment on this because when we fostered a bun before he went to a new home he had never eaten hay, only P@H nuggets and the odd carrot. He was a young bun, perhaps 6 months, but his droppings were always very small and dark. We taught him to eat hay over several days and a few days later he passed a huge load of stringy poops...that his owner (whom we kept in touch with) had never seen him do before, his droppings from the first day he ate the hay increased significantly in size due to the indigestible waste fibre bulking his waste droppings. My theory, and it is only a theory, was that this fur had been building up in his guts and the sudden intake of fibre bulked his droppings, increased his motility and stretched the walls of his intestines and scoured the fur out along with it.

Perhaps an ultrasound could be done over the weekend?

abbymarysmokey
01-05-2010, 12:44 AM
What are his symptoms ATM? :wave:

I think vets are sometimes a little too keen to opt for surgery, when things may right themselves if given time. I've had rabbits in virtual stasis for weeks on end, who have gone on to make a full recovery (not common, but it does happen).

Personally I'd only opt for surgery on the guts/stomach if the rabbit was in pain and was at immanent risk of death....but that's just my personal feelings.

Good luck whatever you decide xx

Jack's-Jane
01-05-2010, 06:33 AM
I agree that an ultrasound would be the most helpful next step if appropriate, to really see what is going on inside before deciding on surgery.

I have always felt that hydration is key to getting stuff moving through the guts and out, fibre helps loads, but sufficient hydration does remarkable things in my limited experience. I do hope all goes well in the morning. :)

Completely agree with this.

parsnipbun
01-05-2010, 04:07 PM
Hi everyone . . many thanks for everyone's suggestions. There is no hair (or very little hair) in the stringy poos - its just not hair! I also have dissected the pooh and its not hair. Its strange sort of fibrous very light brown stuff - the colour of mmmmm . . . very light brown cardboard (and no he hasn;t access to cardboard).

I tried separating fibres on the apple inner bark and did make stringish (My experience of prehistoric life reconstructions may have helped me here!! we made baskets of birch bark peelings and string of all sorts of things!!!) . . but thats not to say that that is what it was.

We decided against an op for now - the vet says that it os a very difficult call as he may pass it without blocking . . or he may not. Imaging - she really feels that she has enough info from feeling the area (which apparently she can feel quite clearly and definitely) and looking at poohs.

I am subcut fluiding twice a day and trying to encourage lots of wet green weed eating. At present he looks s healthy as anything!

Many thanks again to everyone for concern and suggestions . . another tense weekend.

On the plus side Damson has gained 300 gms!!!!! (now weighs 1.9 - was 1.6 immediately after kidney op! 1.8 for a while before that.). He'll be a chubby little thing soon!

parsnipbun
01-05-2010, 04:11 PM
PS I may push her on the imaging again next week IF he stays healthy BUT she can still feel the duodenal thickening.

because she has now done quite a few gut ops with success I think she is less cautious than I am (or she used to be)!!!!

thumps_
01-05-2010, 04:26 PM
I'm so pleased you've got the fiber aspect sorted out parsnip bun. My sincere apologies for worrying you.
It goes to show I'd be hopeless in Neolithic times, despite my fascination about how folk lived then. I only cut the bark into thin strips & used a meat hammer as a pulper. Obviously a bad model of rabbit teeth! :oops: :lol::lol::lol::lol:

My every good wish for you & yours, & everything crossed that Mistletow S will pass all this under his own steam.
I don't know why buns always seem to be ill at w/e & bank holidays either.
My boy is good at needing a dental just before a w/e. :roll:

parsnipbun
01-05-2010, 04:41 PM
:lol::lol:

In my first and second years at Uni studied palaeolithic and Mesolithic and did all sorts of things with flint knapping, pine resins, etc etc. Spent quite a while excavating on some of most famous sites in France and Greece etc
I knew it would come in useful in future life!:shock::shock:
but as I say - thats not to say it was the apple bark!

For a bunny that may need an op he really is remarkably lively - at present on top of hutch trying to get at various shrubs/leaves through the upper roof of the aviary by standing on tiptoes (and yes I do know what they are and they are not the culprits either!!).

thumps_
01-05-2010, 04:52 PM
PS I may push her on the imaging again next week IF he stays healthy BUT she can still feel the duodenal thickening.

because she has now done quite a few gut ops with success I think she is less cautious than I am (or she used to be)!!!!

My human knowledge can get in the way on the forum. I would want to know whether the "thickening", is caused purely bya mass of foreign material, or whether there is a slight narrowing in the duodenum itself - perhaps thick muscles, or even old scarring of the internal wall. The type of surgery would be different in each scenario, with different risks & outcomes.
In this I'm not casting aspertions on your vet. It's simply a clarification I would personally like before proceeding.

thumps_
01-05-2010, 05:06 PM
:lol::lol:

In my first and second years at Uni studied palaeolithic and Mesolithic and did all sorts of things with flint knapping, pine resins, etc etc. Spent quite a while excavating on some of most famous sites in France and Greece etc
I knew it would come in useful in future life!:shock::shock:
but as I say - thats not to say it was the apple bark!

For a bunny that may need an op he really is remarkably lively - at present on top of hutch trying to get at various shrubs/leaves through the upper roof of the aviary by standing on tiptoes (and yes I do know what they are and they are not the culprits either!!).

It's lovely that Mistletoe is so lively & not suffering much. :):)

I'm rarely envious, but if I could have a parallel life I would love to have had your experience. Early man had an absolute wealth of knowledge about natural materials & their environment which has been totally lost to us in our artificial society.
I've yet to find any use whatsoever for a "pilot study" of left & right handedness from the Neolithic implements round here.:oops::lol:

parsnipbun
01-05-2010, 06:15 PM
It's lovely that Mistletoe is so lively & not suffering much. :):)

I'm rarely envious, but if I could have a parallel life I would love to have had your experience. Early man had an absolute wealth of knowledge about natural materials & their environment which has been totally lost to us in our artificial society.
I've yet to find any use whatsoever for a "pilot study" of left & right handedness from the Neolithic implements round here.:oops::lol:

Odd you should say that as I am sure I recall such a study being published as part of the 1980s/90s push on trying to ascertain the individual in prehistory. Do you know knappers such as Francis Wenban Smith and the Boxgrove lot ?

Can I make you more jealous by saying that I have actually been inside the real Lascaux (twice), Altamira and numerous numerous other painted caves - and also worked in cave sites here and abroad in Europe - as well as later sites in Syria, Lebanon, Peru, etc etc .

How I then became a garden historian is another story . . .

PS Mistletoe Snowgoose still well . . .

thumps_
01-05-2010, 07:16 PM
Oh my goodness, I'm all wobbly at the thought of seeing all those wonderful sites,, AND withall the background knowledge to appreciate what you are looking at.

Sadly, I never met with the career archaeologists, apart from Rabbi Julia Neuburger, (Cambridge) when she moved from archaeology to rabbinical training. (A very funny story).

The handedness work was through psychiatry, Digby Quested.
They were also looking at the inherited form of bipolar affective disorder, & asking questions like "Why didn't the genetic line become extinct?" & "What biological advantages might it confer on individuals in those different societies?" A surprising number of academics have a mild bipolar illness which enhances their creativity in thought.

akaemzybabe
01-05-2010, 10:12 PM
good to know about the bark, my 2 have been chomping through anything woody i give them at the min, they'll eat a foot apple twig in an hour. I'll make sure I dont give them a whole tree in 1 day just to be on the safe side. I'm also sure savoy cabbage gave 1 of my buns bloat a while back so we avoid that too

parsnipbun
01-05-2010, 10:49 PM
well tbh this is the first time that apple bark has caused this and we give it to them a lot - and bear in mind I have 18 buns and only one was affected . . . but I will also be restricting it in future to small amounts at any one time rather than just throwing the tree in whole:shock:

Jack's-Jane
02-05-2010, 06:54 AM
As MS is a REW I would be keeping Pyloric Stenosis in mind, they appear to be more prone to the condition

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/pyloric.html

parsnipbun
02-05-2010, 12:01 PM
Thank you - I will mention this and see if she is aware of it.

When you say REW seem to have it more than others is there an article/published stuff on that or s it personal observation? I know you have had several REW with problems.

This is the second attach of stassis that MS has had - the first was about 13 months ago. He is about 2 years old (poss just over).

Jack's-Jane
02-05-2010, 01:31 PM
I have lost 3 (related) REWs to a congenital PS (PM confirmed)

I think some of the REW 8 were also affected.

We *think* that Little Bill (brother of the three fatalities) also has the condition.
Little Bill is a REW.

Here's another bit of info:

http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/S/00dis/Miscellaneous/Pyloric_stenosis_Rabbit.html

The only published work I can find is :A case of spontaneous congenital pyloric stenosis in a rabbit by RH Cardy - 1973.

Its a Pub-Med one and I am not a subscriber atm. Maybe your Vet is though ?

parsnipbun
02-05-2010, 03:20 PM
Were yours all young (sorry to ask upsetting questions)? MS is at least 2 years poss older . . .

I may be able to get the publication through the University Library.

They hold everything.

Jack's-Jane
02-05-2010, 03:31 PM
Were yours all young (sorry to ask upsetting questions)? MS is at least 2 years poss older . . .

I may be able to get the publication through the University Library.

They hold everything.

They were all 6 months old :cry:

I believe the REW 8s who were effected were about 2

thumps_
02-05-2010, 03:42 PM
As MS is a REW I would be keeping Pyloric Stenosis in mind, they appear to be more prone to the condition

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/pyloric.html

Thank you Jane. I did not know that buns could get this condition which has been on my mind too.
In humans, we release the tight muscle, which is constricting the duodenum with a simple cut through it. Because we don't cut through the wall of the bowel there are none of the difficult issues of bacteria spilling into the abdoninal cavity = peritonitis.
It's the least risky procedure.

ETA Parsnipbun, if you would like further background about the operations mentioned on the link, I can tell you about humans. My 1st. job as a doctor was in this field, & we did these operations every week. Pleas just pm me.

Jack's-Jane
02-05-2010, 03:47 PM
Thank you Jane. I did not know that buns could get this condition which has been on my mind too.
In humans, we release the tight muscle, which is constricting the duodenum with a simple cut through it. Because we don't cut through the wall of the bowel there are none of the difficult issues of bacteria spilling into the abdoninal cavity = peritonitis.
It's the least risky procedure.

I did have one operated on but sadly she did not recover :cry:

thumps_
02-05-2010, 03:56 PM
I did have one operated on but sadly she did not recover :cry:

I'm so sorry for your loss Jane.
Fortunately I'm aware that abdominal ops in buns are far more risky than in humans, and almost a last ditch standwhen there is no other option left.
In fact the Highly selective vagotomy with or without drainage, & other alterations of the anatomy were not long term successes with humans, there were many side effects, & revision surgery was often needed.
The myomectomy was very successful in children, but I don'tknow about bunnies. As in all things surgical it is chosing the right proceedure at the right time, with the patient in the best possible condition. THEN we cross our fingers.!!!

prettylupin
02-05-2010, 04:14 PM
As in all things surgical it is chosing the right proceedure at the right time, with the patient in the best possible condition. THEN we cross our fingers.!!!

Except that in humans, being nil by mouth for a few days won't often cause our entire system to shut down.
I suppose as far as buns are concerned, opting for bowel surgery really is all about the 'right time', in my mind, although there will always be exceptions, this will be as abbymarysmokey rightly said, when the situation is dire, acute and it is an emergency.

How is Mistletoe Snowgoose today?

parsnipbun
02-05-2010, 09:02 PM
Except that in humans, being nil by mouth for a few days won't often cause our entire system to shut down.
I suppose as far as buns are concerned, opting for bowel surgery really is all about the 'right time', in my mind, although there will always be exceptions, this will be as abbymarysmokey rightly said, when the situation is dire, acute and it is an emergency.

How is Mistletoe Snowgoose today?

MS is very very well again today - much weller than he would be if he could read all this :lol:

He has been passing lots and lots of big normal poos and ONE stringy type poo. I did try and dissect it but cannot positively identify anything.
I have now double checked his age and he is younger than I thought - born August 2008 so about one and a half.

I am hoping that he is now going to stay well and we will have the suspect 'thickening' checked again on Weds and I will ask about imaging again then and also mention the Pyloric Stenosis. I did not undertand all of the article you referenced Jack'sJane (sorry - head full of a chapter on Edwardian Gardens that i am meant to be writing to tight deadline): How does pyloric stenosis cause a thickening of the duodenum - ?

PS and were there any symptoms that are SPECIFIC to PS - rather than just stasis/bloat symptoms as general?

thumps_
02-05-2010, 09:24 PM
MS is very very well again today - much weller than he would be if he could read all this :lol:

He has been passing lots and lots of big normal poos and ONE stringy type poo. I did try and dissect it but cannot positively identify anything.
I have now double checked his age and he is younger than I thought - born August 2008 so about one and a half.

I am hoping that he is now going to stay well and we will have the suspect 'thickening' checked again on Weds and I will ask about imaging again then and also mention the Pyloric Stenosis. I did not undertand all of the article you referenced Jack'sJane (sorry - head full of a chapter on Edwardian Gardens that i am meant to be writing to tight deadline): How does pyloric stenosis cause a thickening of the duodenum - ?

PS and were there any symptoms that are SPECIFIC to PS - rather than just stasis/bloat symptoms as general?

I'm so pleased that mistletoe is doing so well. I'm really hoping that he'll get through this under his own steam.

May answer how pyloric stenosis & the thickened duodenum relate & leave bunny symptoms to Jack's Jane?

Pyloric stenosis just means a narrowing of the 1st part of the duodenum - usually close to the outlet of the stomach.
There are several causes but the cause mentioned in the link is thickened muscle.
We don't know why this happens. In humans we are born with it, & the babies have issues early on. The muscle round the walls of the duodenum & sometimes extending to the stomach is thicker & stronger than normal, so the hole through which the food has to pass along the duodenum gets smaller & smaller, until it blocks.
So it sounds as if your vet believes she's feeling this thick muscle.

Jack's-Jane
02-05-2010, 09:51 PM
I'm so pleased that mistletoe is doing so well. I'm really hoping that he'll get through this under his own steam.

May answer how pyloric stenosis & the thickened duodenum relate & leave bunny symptoms to Jack's Jane?

Pyloric stenosis just means a narrowing of the 1st part of the duodenum - usually close to the outlet of the stomach.
There are several causes but the cause mentioned in the link is thickened muscle.
We don't know why this happens. In humans we are born with it, & the babies have issues early on. The muscle round the walls of the duodenum & sometimes extending to the stomach is thicker & stronger than normal, so the hole through which the food has to pass along the duodenum gets smaller & smaller, until it blocks.
So it sounds as if your vet believes she's feeling this thick muscle.

Thanks Judy, I was hoping you'd be along to explain it far better than I could !!

As far as symptoms go, with my girls (Nellie, Peggy-Sue and Bree), there were no symptoms. Just a sudden onset bloat and death within 24 hours despite emergency treatment :cry:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b27/Jan-bun/Picture1141.jpg


and this............... :cry:

http://www.onetruemedia.com/otm_site/view_shared?p=702fc3f4762c1b7dc9e44d&skin_id=1011&utm_source=otm&utm_medium=text_url

parsnipbun
03-05-2010, 10:54 AM
Thank you both of you - I will print this out and take it.

JacksJane:That was a lovely tribute . . :(

thumps_
03-05-2010, 12:25 PM
How is Mistletoe S today parsnipbun?
I hope that we are able to get some concepts about the issues involved over the cybernet. The very best way is if your vet can do some doodles of the stomach & duodenum while explaining it to you. All will become crystal clear then.

With every good wish for you all.

thumps_
04-05-2010, 04:12 AM
Diagram of pyloric stenosis caused by muscle enlargement in a human.
http://pedsurg.ucsf.edu/media/85927/img_main.gif
I hope it clarifies things for you, without risking seeing things you may prefer not to see. Bunny anatomy is very similar.

parsnipbun
04-05-2010, 09:53 AM
Diagram of pyloric stenosis caused by muscle enlargement in a human.
http://pedsurg.ucsf.edu/media/85927/img_main.gif
I hope it clarifies things for you, without risking seeing things you may prefer not to see. Bunny anatomy is very similar.

thank you . . . couldn't be plainer!

rodneyvet
05-05-2010, 09:01 AM
I think that if you want to get a diagnosis and correct treatment for this case, you need to get some more work done. Has any blood been taken? are there any radiographs (including contrast radiographs)? Are you seriously contemplating surgery to look for a rare condition such as pyloric stenosis without trying to properly diagnose it first? If you are sure there is delayed gastric emptying its worth knowing that both renal disease and diabetes can cause delayed gastric emptying in rabbits. Or your rabbit may just have ileus. Please remember the implications of surgery in this species with regards to adhesion formation and postoperative ileus. One should be able to fully justify the decision to take these animals to surgery. Fluroscopy would be ideal to diagnose pyloric stenosis but is often cost prohibitive.
Goodluck

Hugo's There
05-05-2010, 09:13 AM
I just noticed you are talking about pyloric stenosis. Leon had problems with this but it was only found out via PM. He died at 16 months.

The PM showed that Leon had a thickening of the pyloris and also a small tumour on it. The day he died it had be come infected, abscessed and burst.

He showed no symptoms until the last day of his life and the PM also found his stomach to be impacted with food and pus. He was eating the morning of the day he died.

The vet told me that there is no way we would have been able to diagnose his problems before hand even if he had shown a symptom or two because ofits positioning and if we had there would have been virtually nothing we could do.

I don't expect this is really relevant to your situation but thought I would share my experience seeings as how Leon had been mentioned earlier in the thread :)

Dobbin
05-05-2010, 09:43 AM
Loads of vibes and hugs coming to you. These bunnies do like to worry us.

Sue
xx

parsnipbun
05-05-2010, 01:56 PM
I think that if you want to get a diagnosis and correct treatment for this case, you need to get some more work done. Has any blood been taken? are there any radiographs (including contrast radiographs)? Are you seriously contemplating surgery to look for a rare condition such as pyloric stenosis without trying to properly diagnose it first? If you are sure there is delayed gastric emptying its worth knowing that both renal disease and diabetes can cause delayed gastric emptying in rabbits. Or your rabbit may just have ileus. Please remember the implications of surgery in this species with regards to adhesion formation and postoperative ileus. One should be able to fully justify the decision to take these animals to surgery. Fluroscopy would be ideal to diagnose pyloric stenosis but is often cost prohibitive.
Goodluck

My vet (who I should say is a very experienced vet with rabbits) was contemplating surgery as Mistletoe was bloating up and a blockage was suspected - she also thought the there was more obstructive material in the duodenum which was threatening to cause a second period of blockage.

The pyloric stenosis diagnosis was suggested on this thread resulting from my reporting that my vet mentioned that MS had a thickening of the duodenum on two manual inspections during the period of bloat/ileus. Others have been helpful in explaining what PS is and its increased incidence in REW. TBH this has been quite a theoretical discussion.
Pyloric stenosis has not been discussed with the vet as MS has at present recovered from whatever caused his bloat and has not had the
further obstruction she was concerned about - we are going for another check up this afternoon and will then consider what to do next on the basis of whether there still appears t be some thickening or not. I am sure at that stage she will discuss diagnosis and tests..

My vet is well aware of the difficulties with adhesion and post operative ileus - and has successfully carried out a blockage removal on another rabbit of mine several years ago (despite rabbit being in advance timpani and shock having bloated overnight on a small object), as well as a kidney removal on a 9 year old rabbit just a month ago. She is very skilled and I am sure she would not have suggested the surgery had she not genuinley felt it necessary. In fact she gave us the option of either waiting and seeing if it blocked again OR operating to ascertain state of obstrction. Her worry was that as it was a Bank Holiday for the following 3 days and any secondary block would be fatal as there are no competent vets who could deal with it over that period here.

Hope that clears things up - I know its a long thread so the ins and outs have been lost.:D

rodneyvet
05-05-2010, 03:26 PM
Thats cleared it up fine :D
I hope your rabbit does not need surgery and goes on to do well
Goodluck

yvette
05-05-2010, 03:29 PM
I had Pyloricstenosis as a baby.....:oops:

parsnipbun
05-05-2010, 03:34 PM
I had Pyloricstenosis as a baby.....:oops:

It really is AMAZING the experience of people on RU!!!

yvette
05-05-2010, 03:38 PM
It really is AMAZING the experience of people on RU!!!

I was vomiting......mum used to measure my bottle and then I would projectile vomit MORE than what Id been fed.
Was taken into hospital at the age of 6 MONTHS for an exploratory op...where it was discovered.
Its VERY common in little boys...at around 6 weeks of age.
I was born November 66....had the op in MAY 69!!!(and Im female.....)

parsnipbun
05-05-2010, 03:41 PM
I was vomiting......mum used to measure my bottle and then I would projectile vomit MORE than what Id been fed.
Was taken into hospital at the age of 6 MONTHS for an exploratory op...where it was discovered.
Its VERY common in little boys...at around 6 weeks of age.
I was born November 66....had the op in MAY 69!!!(and Im female.....)

Ooooh - I did the projectile vomiting bit too - but it was an allergy to cows milk . . I was born back in 1957 and my mother had to go back to work straight away so my aunt looked after me . . . no goats milk or 'breast expressers' in those days!! I was very unpopular . . my aunt has always had such a neat and clean house . . .

yvette
05-05-2010, 03:47 PM
Ooooh - I did the projectile vomiting bit too - but it was an allergy to cows milk . . I was born back in 1957 and my mother had to go back to work straight away so my aunt looked after me . . . no goats milk or 'breast expressers' in those days!! I was very unpopular . . my aunt has always had such a neat and clean house . . .


:lol::lol::lol:

prettylupin
05-05-2010, 04:41 PM
Hope that Mistletoe's afternoon check up goes ok! Please let us know how you get on. :)

(Can I just say it's great to see Rodneyvet back on the forum too)

Jack's-Jane
05-05-2010, 04:46 PM
Hope that Mistletoe's afternoon check up goes ok! Please let us know how you get on. :)

(Can I just say it's great to see Rodneyvet back on the forum too)

:thumb:

:D

Good luck at the Vets Twiggs xx

thumps_
05-05-2010, 08:50 PM
I hope all went well this afternoon, but I'm mindful that you have a lot of rabbits to care for.
I also rudely forgot to ask whether you managed to get your bed back after the bunny take over last Autumn.

parsnipbun
05-05-2010, 09:34 PM
Sorry to keep everyone is suspense!

Looks like its good news for MS as the vets could not detect any thickening or dughy feel in the duodenum this time and we have concluded that it was caused by fibrous material which he has now managed to pass on his own (well - with lots of meds and fluids and all intensive home care, and the combined support of RU!!:lol::lol:)

I shall be keeping a close eye on him as he slowly comes off the metaclopromide over the next few days.

Who knows . . I may even get my bedroom back again . . . . or is that a FFffffff I can hear Viola Rose making????

thumps_
05-05-2010, 10:11 PM
I'm absolutely thrilled for you both parsnipbun. That's wonderful news.:D:D:D
There's potential good news about getting your bedroom back too.:D

parsnipbun
05-05-2010, 10:15 PM
I'm absolutely thrilled for you both parsnipbun. That's wonderful news.:D:D:D
There's potential good news about getting your bedroom back too.:D

yes - especially as I am allergic to hay:lol::lol::roll:

I think there have been bunnies in the bedroom (a range of changing ones) for about a year now . . . At one stage there were bunnies in my bedroom, bunnies in the outdoor (heated) studio (in fact still are); bunnies in the office/study (still are); and bunnies in the lodgers bedroom (currently bunny free).

Thats not to mention the foursome permanently in the living room/dining room/patio!

This summer we are hoping to be down to the 'normal' 5 houserabbits inside . . with the others resuming their rightful places in the outdoor world!

thumps_
05-05-2010, 10:23 PM
yes - especially as I am allergic to hay:lol::lol::roll:

I think there have been bunnies in the bedroom (a range of changing ones) for about a year now . . . At one stage there were bunnies in my bedroom, bunnies in the outdoor (heated) studio (in fact still are); bunnies in the office/study (still are); and bunnies in the lodgers bedroom (currently bunny free).

Thats not to mention the foursome permanently in the living room/dining room/patio!

This summer we are hoping to be down to the 'normal' 5 houserabbits inside . . with the others resuming their rightful places in the outdoor world!

I'm so sorry, it must have been incredibly difficult, but with the relief about Mistletoe S, I burst out laughing envisaging bunnies popping out of every door you opened.
I also thought that you are now an authority on the causes of projectile vomiting in infants.