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What's Wrong With Sir Victor ?-U/D 28th April Post 27

Jack's-Jane

Wise Old Thumper
Some of you may remember that about a week ago Victor started to have sudden onset episodes of a 'tucked up' abdomen, like he was trying to pull his belly up under his ribcage. You'd think 'acute abdominal pain' BUT he has no signs of pain on examination ( by C aswell as by me )-no bloat,masses,gass,'doughiness'. He can be eating when an 'episode' occurs, or he can just be pottering about the garden.

He is eating and pooing as normal. He has no signs of bladder problems.
His kidneys and liver feel normal. (Again confirmed by C)

Usually a tucked up episode lasts for about 30 seconds and then resolves without any treatment except for me examining his abdomen. It really does not seem to be a GI tract problem, more that his diaphragm goes into spasm.

He has no respiratory tract symptoms. Heart and lungs sound normal.

This morning Victor had another 'episode' only this time it did not resolve. He was in the garden when suddenly he was totally tucked up and he could not hop but had to 'walk' like a dog. I immediately called C who agreed to me giving Victor Metacam, Vetergesic, Ranitidine and Baytril. Trying to cover all bases really. Even when completely tucked up his intestines are palpable, relaxed and not tender. His stomach was not at all bloated and he was not distressed.

Once the analgesia kicked in the 'tucked-upness' resolved and he is still eating although rather drowsy due to the opiate. I have never seen anything like this before and C says she has no idea what may be wrong. Victor is having bloods taken on Monday, but what we are looking for I dont know.

There does not appear to be any spinal pain either and Victor is as mobile as usual except for during this morning's protracted 'episode'.

Sorry for this epic post. But if anyone could suggest any possible causes to Victor's very odd 'tucked up' episodes I'd be really grateful. I am everso worried about him :cry: xx
 
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The only thing i can think of that you havent mentioned is kidney stones. They wouldnt be palpable and dont cause nephromegaly until chronic if at all. But they do cause pain, hunching up and stilted walking. Anatomically they are also close to the diaphragm so could account for the localisation? Have you done any urinalysis? That or RADs would be the only means of diagnosis i think.
 
The only thing i can think of that you havent mentioned is kidney stones. They wouldnt be palpable and dont cause nephromegaly until chronic if at all. But they do cause pain, hunching up and stilted walking. Anatomically they are also close to the diaphragm so could account for the localisation? Have you done any urinalysis? That or RADs would be the only means of diagnosis i think.

Urinalysis done. Strong positive for leucocytes and trace of Ketones :? Inflammation.......... ??

He does pass VERY rusty wee, but he eats tons of grass/dandelion leaves every day.

Would the tucked-up episodes resolve so quickly (apart from today) and wouldn't his kidney's be painful on examination :?
 
I *think* they are variably painful on examination, probably depends on the size, number and location of stones. Would cause low-grade pain generally though, and more so when the stretch and hop (friend's bun has just been diagnosed - vet said thats why he has started "hopping weird") . Urinalysis is suggestive of inflammation or something going on, either kidneys or bladder. But if he's not straining or otherwise urinating normally kidneys would be more likely? No significant crystals? (few calcium oxalate is normal, so determing "high numbers" is pretty tricky....)
Thats about the extent of my knowledge though...U/S imaging might also work - just thought of that, and wouldnt need GA etc. I know they do kidney imaging in cats and dogs. IV urogram would show up stones and other issues in kidney/ureters/bladder/urethra, but thats invasive and costly, and i'm not sure whether they do them in rabbits routinely.
 
I *think* they are variably painful on examination, probably depends on the size, number and location of stones. Would cause low-grade pain generally though, and more so when the stretch and hop (friend's bun has just been diagnosed - vet said thats why he has started "hopping weird") . Urinalysis is suggestive of inflammation or something going on, either kidneys or bladder. But if he's not straining or otherwise urinating normally kidneys would be more likely? No significant crystals? (few calcium oxalate is normal, so determing "high numbers" is pretty tricky....)
Thats about the extent of my knowledge though...U/S imaging might also work - just thought of that, and wouldnt need GA etc. I know they do kidney imaging in cats and dogs. IV urogram would show up stones and other issues in kidney/ureters/bladder/urethra, but thats invasive and costly, and i'm not sure whether they do them in rabbits routinely.

Thank you, I did mention Kidney Stones to C when this started about a week ago. I think I'll request Xrays on Monday. C does not have U/S equipment so it'd be a 30min car journey for that and Victor travels badly. Not sure what's worst, the risk of a GA or the risk of him getting very poorly from travel induced stress :?
 
Yeah travel stress doesnt do anyone any good ay? mine stress out in the 10 mins door to door from mine to the vet! :roll: they love it once they're there tho! :lol:. Hope you get some answers anyway - seems it needs further diagnostic tests whichever way you look at it.
 
Yeah travel stress doesnt do anyone any good ay? mine stress out in the 10 mins door to door from mine to the vet! :roll: they love it once they're there tho! :lol:. Hope you get some answers anyway - seems it needs further diagnostic tests whichever way you look at it.

The more I think about it the more I feel Kidney Stones may be the most likely cause. Perhaps the pattern of acute 'tucked-up' episodes has changed now due to the position the stone(s) are now in :?

*Must try not to second guess diagnosis and wait for proper tests*...... :oops:

But *if* it is Kidney Stones then surgery is the only option isnt it :cry:

And if both Kidneys are effected then................ :cry: :cry:


*Tries to switch off anxiety channel*................ :oops:
 
I *think* stones can be broken up by ultrasound, but that may be in the bladder, not sure about kidneys....
Anyhew, Yeah, don't go there yet. Just wait til you get a definitive diagnosis.
 
I just wonder, if it isn't renal stones, as to whether there could be a trapped nerve somewhere along the spine? Or a bit of arthritis maybe in his spine causing his gait to change. I realise that doesn't explain his 'tucked up' tummy though. In humans c3,4,and 5 supply the diaphragm... god knows how the layout is for bunnies :?

Perhaps an Xray is a good idea to rule out lots of things, if he is up to it. Hope you get some answers soon. :) x
 
I just wonder, if it isn't renal stones, as to whether there could be a trapped nerve somewhere along the spine? Or a bit of arthritis maybe in his spine causing his gait to change. I realise that doesn't explain his 'tucked up' tummy though. In humans c3,4,and 5 supply the diaphragm... god knows how the layout is for bunnies :?

Perhaps an Xray is a good idea to rule out lots of things, if he is up to it. Hope you get some answers soon. :) x

Thank you

I am even more convinced that its Kidney Stones now as he had a few more 'episodes' after the major one this morning. However after SQ fluids and a bit more Vetergesic he has not been tucked up for about 6-7 hours :?

He is weeing so at least there is a flow-through still running.

Maybe this mornings severe episode was a stone passing through his ureter- a ureteric colic :?

Gaaaaaaaaaah, must stop guessing and wait for diagnostics :oops:
 
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Please keep us up to date and let us know what the diagnostics find, it sounds like you have got the pain well under control though :)
I know what it is like to try to second guess diagnoses... it drives you mad and around and around in circles! :( Take heart that your superb vet will get to the bottom of it i'm sure and hang in there, i'm sure he's gonna be ok. :)
 
Really hope he perks up. I was going to ask whether you had stopped the NSAIDs with the kidney query. Maybe being a bit groggy is putting him off?
 
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