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Acute bloat/hypomotility of the gut? Updated: Confirmed arthritis

prettylupin

Wise Old Thumper
Just wondering how many other members have EC positive rabbits for whom the only symptom is recurrent acute bloat and hypomotility of the gut? No other neurological symptoms at all.
(In this case the EC titre was in the lower ranges that would tend not to indicate an active infection)
 
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Just wondering how many other members have EC positive rabbits for whom the only symptom is recurrent acute bloat and hypomotility of the gut? No other neurological symptoms at all.
(In this case the EC titre was in the lower ranges that would tend not to indicate an active infection)

I have had a rabbit with those symptoms test positive for EC. I couldn't say whether the EC was the cause though.
 
The thinking is that about 75% of domestic rabbits would test positive for EC..thus showing they had been exposed to it..not necessarily carrying an active strain if you like

Did you have 3 tests a few weeks apart and did the titre go up?

if not your rabbit may well have been exposed to EC but they may not be the cause of it's problems:?

What treatment/tests has the bun had?
 
I believe SarahP is the person you need here

Try PMing her incase she misses this thread :)

Will do thank you. :)

He's only had one titre but it was in the lower ranges indicating he is more likely to just be a carrier and/or past exposure, not an active infection, this is the problem. It really is the only clinically significant finding. We were going to repeat the titre to check for mounting immune response but he has had a 28 day treatment in the meantime anyway, he has also been panacured in the past. We will probably do a repeat titre just to see if there has been any change. Some say to repeat titres a few days apart, others a few weeks - my vet is happy with one titre result, there is so much uncertainty still around EC I feel, certainly from the research I have read. :(

Bloods yesterday all normal, stools sent for bacteriologiy, Abdo X-ray a month ago on one emergency occasion - no masses, no bladder stones (this was my thinking as had strained on peeing but suspect this is dehydration associated with ileus) minor spurs but not significant (two rabbit savy vets have monitored this over the last 3 years and are still not concerned), he has not had a skull Xray or full oral examination under GA - I suspect exotic referral may request this next, vet hesitant to GA him unless necessary. There are NO symptoms from his mouth, no drooling, tongue ulceration and he has NO difficulty eating, doesn't drop food or go off his really tough hay - in fact chooses it. Droppings stop before eating does, bloating is very sudden and acute, often with no associated ileus at the outset. There is never any obstruction. Dehydration has been a factor as has any reduction in exercise... strongly responsive motility wise to exercise. Has hypomotility on a daily pattern despite ongoing gut motility meds even when not symptomatic. Vet feels EC link is significant, I feel it is something far more inherent - he has had this ever since we adopted him 3 years ago but tends to have bouts then a long break. We have had recurrent episodes since January. Stress (mine) and Spring grass are certainly factors.... it is all very odd! :(
 
Interestingly since yesterday's exam and abdo palpation he has perked up considerably and droppings have been prolific every since! :D
Reckon vet shifted some gas pockets and/or stimulated his gut. When he is well he is very well - he can be absolutely fine then collapse with bloat out of the blue, even if he has just been eating. We've lived with it for so long, but the concern is that it is getting worse since 2010 began...
 
I presume the tests will check for coccidia?
Is he on probiotics to help his gut flora remain balanced?
I would be inclined to avoid any sugary/starchy foods (you probably do anyway) as these will tend to feed the 'wrong' bacteria leading to more gas.
Dehydration my increase the likehood of of the normal hair and faecal matter forming a temporary or partial obstruction- hopefully these (or at least a suspicious pattern of gas) would show up on xray though :?

I'm sure your vet has considered all of the above. At some stage I would be inclined to get those back teeth checked properly under GA but I appreciate the risks are greater whilst he is poorly.

Sending vibes xx
 
I presume the tests will check for coccidia?
Is he on probiotics to help his gut flora remain balanced?
I would be inclined to avoid any sugary/starchy foods (you probably do anyway) as these will tend to feed the 'wrong' bacteria leading to more gas.
Dehydration my increase the likehood of of the normal hair and faecal matter forming a temporary or partial obstruction- hopefully these (or at least a suspicious pattern of gas) would show up on xray though :?

I'm sure your vet has considered all of the above. At some stage I would be inclined to get those back teeth checked properly under GA but I appreciate the risks are greater whilst he is poorly.

Sending vibes xx

Thank you Lilbun for your thoughts. :)

He has been on fibreplex during the acute phases (have they changed the product? It used to be much thicker and crunchier?) and I have protexin profibre pellets of which he has a couple each day -but i'm not overly happy about these with sugar in the ingredients list. In fact I can not find any probiotic that doesn't have some source of sugar in it :? I have just ordered some ProC. Avipro plus has sugar in so I've been reluctant to use it. I have biolapis but he doesn't like it!:roll:

The buns don't have any pellets and I don't feed anything sugary, a cube of carrot is a very rare treat indeed, i'm not very big on treats for rabbits! I am a mean mummy! Their diet is purely hay and veg and whatever i can harvest from the garden in terms of weeds/tree leaves etc. So I know for certain that starch/sugar are not an issue. His caecum is perfect - it always has been - never an excess caec. However, Judy did suggest a possibility of gas production in the upper gut rather than the caecum itself. Wondering how to balance upper gut flora?!:? I may have to reduce veggies in case they are a source of gas... however, the one night we omitted them he bloated the next day and was heavily dehydrated! :( Like Thumps he doesn't drink a great deal and tends to rely on his diet for fluids.... it is such a dilemma.

He is moulting but they both get brushed daily without exception and Mr PL spends a good half hour on them in the garden, fur everywhere! There is never any fur passed with the rehydrated ingesta after an episode. I must admit last week he passed a tiny piece of something that looked like a seed or piece of wood (apple pip size) that we felt might have caused the last episode? He was digging the lawn which he never does.. Spring! so we gave him a tray of soil and he proceeded to eat the soil! :roll: He's not really au fais with rabbity things! :lol: There has never been any other FB's passed during his episodes so there is no pattern.
He is on metclopramide 3x a day and has been on and off over the last few months - he has a course when he shows signs of slowdown. When he has an episode he is on everything!

A very new inexperienced vet at our practice did make an interesting suggestion.. that he may not chew his food properly and larger pieces could slow his motility...:?
 
I presume the tests will check for coccidia?

Yes! Sorry... missed that bit.

Only source around here would have to be brought in by wings. But he has no diarrhoea so it is very unlikely. He had coccidia at the RSPCA before we adopted him - potentially 'could' have some intestinal scarring causing his predisposition to slow-down but we will never know for sure.
 
Our vet called today and spoke to Mr PL. He was clearly thinking about Nino after our consult as requested Nino's Xray's from the emergency vet people, rather than just the report which he already has. He 'thinks' he has seen some evidence of arthritis on his hips... but is not sure, and would like me to come in to discuss and have a look at the Xrays myself. As it was a conscious Xray taken during an episode of his acute bloat the position of Nino's hips are not perfect to interpret properly, so it sounds like he wants to do an Xray under GA just to check. Am thinking, that when bun is definitely better, this would be a good idea, kill two birds with one stone and get his skull Xray'd too whilst we are at it! Check those back teeth etc.
I feel very encouraged that my vet cares enough to do some more digging around himself after the consult like that. How nice it is to have a vet that cares. :)

I can't imagine Nino has arthritis - he has not shown ANY symptoms... apparently as vet was telling my OH this over the phone... Nino was busy binkying around the garden!! :roll::lol::D
 
I'm glad to hear Nino is well enough to binky around the garden :D

I wonder if the new vet was onto something with him not chewing his food properly and the resulting larger pieces of ingesta are fermenting in his gut and causing the excess gas- it would make sense- it could also tie in with those 'innocent' small spurs as they may be a factor in him not chewing properly.

Re the possible arthritis, hopefully it was just the positioning making the hips look worse than they really are. As a point of interest I know that in dogs, some that appear to have quite severely affected joints on xray may not necessarily show much evidence of it, whilst apparently mild arthritic changes can affect other dogs greatly. If Nino does have arthritic changes I hope they don't cause him too much trouble in the future.
 
I'm so pleased to hear that Nino is feeling better.

I agree with Abbeymarysmokey about EC titers.
As you know well a single low titer only indicates past exposure to EC, which is very common, & usually does not lead to active disease.
GI hypomotility/stasis/bloat is also common. There is not necessarily a causal link.

I'm beginning to wonder whether some buns do not recover to full motility after bloat/stasis but are asymptomatic - apparently normal. Yet there is a reduced functional reserve. Therefore it takes increasingly smaller adverse events which slow down the gut to precipitate crisis, until we are not aware of them they are so small.
 
We had an appointment with our vet today to go over Nino's conscious Xray to look at this suspected arthritis. Just as we were leaving Mr Nino decided to oblige with his pain and bloat symptoms. Useful in a way as our reg vet hasn't seen Nino in his pain state for many months, normally whoever is on duty - so this was helpful really and we took the buns with us after all!:roll:
Some symptoms fell into place on examination and after seeing his Xrays. Rather peculiarly Nino was not bloated at this point - despite displaying his 'bloat' symptoms at home (he can blow up quite quickly however). On general examination our vet discovered that Nino is stiff to stand on his hind legs and arches his back, he remembered this from last week's exam and was looking for it. He has always reacted in this way to this position... but no one has ever picked up on it before. It explains a few things and a few excessive stretching and stiff behaviours he displays at home, especially after long periods of immobility (i.e. first thing in the morning when they come out of the hutch) I could kick myself for not putting two and two together before! :oops::(

The Xray's were fascinating, the heads of his femurs are not smoothly rounded but oddly shaped, and the heads of his humerus are the same. We can not be sure but he does appear to have arthritic changes, but it is the odd shape of these bones that are a puzzle. His spine looks fine, no evidence of spondylosis, and there are certainly no bladder stones. It would fit that raising his pelvis to pee could be extremely painful - which would explain the pain he exhibits sometimes after trying, certainly over the last few weeks on and off, if it is athritis it would explain why it has been getting worse and his recurrent bouts of bloat from the chronic pain.
It is degenerative, I know that already. Our vet said what he was seeing he would expect to see on an 8yr old rabbit, not a 4yr old one :( It looks like congenital bone malformation of some sort to me... but it could be purely arthritic changes... or both? hard to tell with these Xrays. But it certainly could explain ongoing pain sufficient to cause recurrent ileus and bloat throughout his lifetime, and getting worse as he gets older.

Vet needs some proper Xrays of his hip joints extended to make certain this is what we are seeing, so tomorrow morning Nino is having a GA and Xrays. We are going to get his skull Xray'd at the same time, get any mild spurs burred down, rule out everything else, and tommorrow afternoon pick him up and see the results of the Xray. My bunny has never been admitted before and I have never been through a GA with either of my buns, I am terrified! I know he will be ok but I will a nervous wreck tomorrow! Poppy is going with him of course :)
If it is arthritis long term NSAID seems to be the only thing we can do. :cry:
 
I'm so very sorry to hear about special bun Nino. He's another really remarkable communicator & "humanised" to our ways.

Is it fairly easy to give meds to him when he's not in bloat?

I think that buns tolerate NSAIDS muchbetter than humans do. For a start their tummies are always full! Hugo's There will probably know.
I'm really hoping that he'll be free from bloat now.

As for cause - I wonder whether because he's been such an active bun on the move all the time, that is why all 4 joints attatching the limbs to the body are giving trouble. A bit like joggers get premature changes in the knee. OA of the hip nearly always starts in the lead side - the foot we 1st. weight bear on when getting out of a chair or starting to walk.

Thinking so much of you all, & hoping that there is plenty of wear left in those joints of his.
 
Poor Nino. I will have everything crossed for him. Sending lots and lots of vibes for a troublefree GA and for some good results. I have saved a few vibes for your fingernails, in case you nibble them down to stumps tomorrow. Try not to worry too much, I'm sure they'll take good care of them both xx
 
Thank you both. :)

It really is very odd. I saw the Xrays with my own eyes... they do look strange. But at the same time he has NO other symptoms of arthritic pain except for his recurrent bloating/hypomotility and the temporary stiffness after he has been sat around for a while, or the pain a couple of times after peeing. He has NO abnormal gait and as usual was flying around the garden at full speed today, binkying and have a lovely time... surely buns with arthritic pain severe enough to cause bloat and ileus can't be completely normal in their gait and exercise? It just doesn't make sense. :?

Oh well, I guess these Xrays can either rule it out or in and we will be narrowing down our search. Nino is a total enigma!
I'm currently packing their hay and blanket and planning their packed lunch. Must remember to say they use a bowl not a bottle... and that his *stud* (joke!) name Domino means nothing to him... he's only ever been called Nino. :)
 
You are right pretty lupin, it's not making sense.
Bunnies are sensible. I don't see them as doing something that's painful unless it's essential eg. binky with joint pain.

Everything crossed for you all tomorrow.
You've got a good bunny vet. Marie told us of very simple measures which exotics vets use to greatly reduce the risks of anaesthesia in buns ;)

Please let us know when Nino comes round, if you can.
 
This is a very interesting thread, i think theres alot of us out there who'd like to get to the bottom of the old recurrent stasis issue.
Good luck for tomoro, sounds like u have a fab vet so nino is in good hands :)
i look forwards to hearing some news x
 
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