Sneezing again U/D 12th Sept - Cured?!

This could probably go in bonding or health as well, but figured this was the best of both worlds.

Kylo, Indi and Phoenix have been bonded for about 3 weeks and getting along fine. Kylo has always had some snuffling when eating or excited, but more recently (last few days) has been sneezing with increasing frequency and 'violence' - like sneezing fits that last up to a minute or so.

Today i took them all to the vets so the girls could have their Myxi jabs and she could look at Kylo's breathing/sneezing. Its almost certainly in his right nostril (reduced airflow) and his lungs sound fine. May be Pasteurella but as it hasnt been affecting him much - still eating, drinking, pooping, grooming etc - we've held off on further investigation and just monitoring for a few weeks.

When i brought them home i put them back on in the grass run, but for the last hour or two they have been chasing each other - never done this before and seems anyone is chasing anyone else. I think Kylo's sneezing fits unsettle them and he doesnt like them licking his face afterwards, but the girls are chasing each other too.

I've brought them in, put them in a neutral dog crate and now they are fine.

Any suggestions what to do next? are they ok to go out and be left tomorrow? Any idea what could be wrong with Kylo - doesnt seem like Pasteurella?

(sorry for the essay!)

Poor Ky Ive no advice on the sneezing... but maybe the girls are picking up on Ky being poorly, hence chasing him... though i dont know why they'd be chasing each other :roll: Id keep them in the dog crate for a few days just to help their bond, or manybe restrict them to the wendyhouse for tomorrow?

Well the chasing has stopped. They spent the night in the dog crate, happily snuggled together in the storage crate. Plenty of grooming going on so they are back out on the lawn today.

Still no idea with the sneezing though??? They are proper dramatic fits, he seems to get quite adgitated (sp?) by it and paws at his face. Could it be a foreign body like a hay seed?

He now has brown discharge from his nose (I am assuming) on his face, chin and foot:



Does that happen with Pasteurella? or something else?

Probably stupid thinking, but could he have gotten a food pellet/bit of hay or something stuck up his nose? :? Poor lad

Glad the chasing has stopped xx

Could the brown colouring actually be blood. If he has been sneezing alot he may have ruptured a tiny blood vessel in his nostril.

Does he snuffle snort when he eats ?

Just to say, that my Pickle started sneezing and it turned out to be dental related and he needed to have a molar removed.

Jack's-Jane said:

Could the brown colouring actually be blood. If he has been sneezing alot he may have ruptured a tiny blood vessel in his nostril.

Does he snuffle snort when he eats ?

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I guess it could be blood, but must be mucuosy or something as it doesnt dissolve at all with warm water. He has been sneezing hard so thats a possibility.
He has always snuffled and snorted when eating. He does have scars on his face and nose so i thought that was probably part of old injuries and a bit of excitement.

I wondered if he could have inhaled some hay or a seed and its got lodged, as its defiantely in his nose and definately only on one side

He had his teeth checked conscious on Tuesday and she couldnt see anything significant, but obviously you can't see everything conscious

VikkiVet said:

I guess it could be blood, but must be mucuosy or something as it doesnt dissolve at all with warm water. He has been sneezing hard so thats a possibility.
He has always snuffled and snorted when eating. He does have scars on his face and nose so i thought that was probably part of old injuries and a bit of excitement.

I wondered if he could have inhaled some hay or a seed and its got lodged, as its defiantely in his nose and definately only on one side

He had his teeth checked conscious on Tuesday and she couldnt see anything significant, but obviously you can't see everything conscious

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He is a 'cobby' headed Rex so Dental issues are more of a possibility. ETR as much as problems with the crowns.

A FB is another possibility, especially if it's just one nostril. But I would have expected a more purulent discharge with a FB :?

Did the sneezing start after his Myxi vac ?

i dont think its linked to his vaccinations - he had Myxi in Feb and VHD in March (the girls had their Myxi on Tues not Kylo - sorry for the confusion).

Definately no pus. The sneezing has progressed over the last 2 weeks from very sporadic and single to a few at a time 1-2 a day, to several sneezing fits on Monday and Tuesday, now back to a few a day.
He really paws at his face and shakes his head, which makes me think there is something he can feel in his nose - either an FB or discharge, but his lungs are clear, apart from referred URT noise, and likewise his trachea sounds a bit noisy when eating/excited but not the rest of the time.
He's a messy boy and doesnt clean himself very well, and resents me or the girls doing it so the fact that there is significant mess on his face isnt that surprising for him - he lets his chin dribble after drinking for example.

Been emailing the vet - she says she couldnt scope him as its too narrow for any of their equipment. An FB may not show up on RADs so may not be worth the GA and expense.
Currently sticking with monitoring and see what happens.

VikkiVet said:

Been emailing the vet - she says she couldnt scope him as its too narrow for any of their equipment. An FB may not show up on RADs so may not be worth the GA and expense.
Currently sticking with monitoring and see what happens.

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Would a trial of a NSAID for a few days be woth a go ? Obviously it would not address any infective element, but if it's just inflammation then maybe a NSAID might reduce the sneezing.

Bobbie had a severe RTI and now has permanent damage to her nasal passages. This leads to her being a snorty Bun and she's is prone to sneezing episodes that are so violent she makes her nose bleed Sometimes active infection is not present and a few days on Metacam significantly reduces the snorting and sneezing.

Just wondering if Kylo may have had an URTI in the past leaving him with scar tissue in his nasal passages. Or if he has scars on his face maybe an previous injury to his nose has left scar tissue :?

I wondered about the scars/previous injuries too, as he has central blindness probably due to a previous head injury.
I agree that would account for the general snuffliness but not the increase in sneezing? :? NSAIDs wouldnt do much to prevent the sneezing, unless the inflammation itself is a trigger :? and as he's otherwise well i wouldnt say he's in pain.
Wondering if steam would help to open his nasal passages generally?

VikkiVet said:

I wondered about the scars/previous injuries too, as he has central blindness probably due to a previous head injury.
I agree that would account for the general snuffliness but not the increase in sneezing? :? NSAIDs wouldnt do much to prevent the sneezing, unless the inflammation itself is a trigger :? and as he's otherwise well i wouldnt say he's in pain.
Wondering if steam would help to open his nasal passages generally?

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Well you could give it a go

How bizarre, it really has splattered all over his face hasn't it :? Santa always gets much worse at this time of year with the pollen around; cytology from a nasal flush under GA while she was in for a dental showed a lot of general inflammatory and infectious tissue (although twice C&S has come back negative) as well as a high level of eosinophils. Might be worth considering if it doesn't clear up :?

Hope the lovely lad is ok xx

Santa said:

How bizarre, it really has splattered all over his face hasn't it :? Santa always gets much worse at this time of year with the pollen around; cytology from a nasal flush under GA while she was in for a dental showed a lot of general inflammatory and infectious tissue (although twice C&S has come back negative) as well as a high level of eosinophils. Might be worth considering if it doesn't clear up :?

Hope the lovely lad is ok xx

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SO basically the culture was inconclusive? didnt help with diagnosis or treatment? not sure how a C&S can be negative, unless you mean nothing grew and/or the bacteria were sensitive to all abx ie no resistant strains? Eosinophils are allergy reaction cells so that would account for reacting to pollen.
I'm trying to see if its anything to do with the hay, but he sneezes more when excited/active which is whenever i show up! so he does sneeze more with the hay, but also for carrots, greens, pellets etc!
He sneezed right next to my face yesterday (lovely!) and there was definately no blood and only the tiniest amount of clear discharge, not purulent or anything.
He's a mystery bunny!

Yep i mean nothing grew, really frustrating as it's obvious there's infection there but i think it's so deep in the tooth roots/nasal passages you can't get a swab to the active infection. We did find the cytology useful though as at least it gave clues!

A brown discharge sounds like a small amount of blood in a lot of mucus to me. Should this be the case the nasal membrane has been breached.

I understand that any stress can cause a drop in a buns WBC with concomittant reduction in immune response to infection.

Depending on the depth of the nasal injuries, there is a potential for scar tissue to distort the nasal passages, & compromise drainage posteriorally leading to bacterial build up.

Obviously any FB would do likewise, but needs to be removed. They don't usually show on rads in my human experience. (even a plum stone in the nose for 20 years!)

I am a minority group favouring c&s realising that a suitable specimen needs to be taken very high.

Wondering whether it's possible to access the post nasal space in a bun, with angled wire, from the mouth. You only need sterile cotton wool & sterile wire + transport medium.

Also wondering whether a nasal flush would get rid of an FB/ clear any block of inspissated mucus + blood.

I do feel that any infection in a bun's nose needs to be treated much more aggressively & quickly than in humans. The space is so narrow but the mucus just as thick. I feel it essential to reduce the loss of ciliated nasal epithelium by infection & subsequent scarring as much as possible to maintain adequate drainage, & reduce the risk of recurrent infections.

I agree totally with the suggestion of steam, to help to improve drainage.
Any chance that your vet would discuss the case with an exotics center?

thumps_ said:

A brown discharge sounds like a small amount of blood in a lot of mucus to me. Should this be the case the nasal membrane has been breached.

I understand that any stress can cause a drop in a buns WBC with concomittant reduction in immune response to infection.

Depending on the depth of the nasal injuries, there is a potential for scar tissue to distort the nasal passages, & compromise drainage posteriorally leading to bacterial build up.

Obviously any FB would do likewise, but needs to be removed. They don't usually show on rads in my human experience. (even a plum stone in the nose for 20 years!)

I am a minority group favouring c&s realising that a suitable specimen needs to be taken very high.

Wondering whether it's possible to access the post nasal space in a bun, with angled wire, from the mouth. You only need sterile cotton wool & sterile wire + transport medium.

Also wondering whether a nasal flush would get rid of an FB/ clear any block of inspissated mucus + blood.

I do feel that any infection in a bun's nose needs to be treated much more aggressively & quickly than in humans. The space is so narrow but the mucus just as thick. I feel it essential to reduce the loss of ciliated nasal epithelium by infection & subsequent scarring as much as possible to maintain adequate drainage, & reduce the risk of recurrent infections.

I agree totally with the suggestion of steam, to help to improve drainage.
Any chance that your vet would discuss the case with an exotics center?

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Thanks for the info, a lot to consider. The brown discharge seems to have been a one-off from the sneezing fits he had when we got back from the vets. After trying to wash it off, he seems to have removed almost all of it himself (or the girls have). He's been sneezing less since and there is only a very small amount of discharge each time, if any, and its clear (he sneezed in my face :roll: so i got a good look!) So i dont think there is a major issue with burst capillaries and a breach in the nasal membrane.

I agree that stress and the sneezing could cause some immunosuppression, so he could get a 2nd bacterial infection, if he doesnt already have one as a primary cause. My vets opinion was to save abx for if/when it actually started to affect him or progressed, so that resistance doesnt occur. Its that debate between judicious use and aggressive therapy. I dont have an answer to that currently.

I agree an FB wouldnt show up so imaging, with the sedation/GA risk with respiratory issues, isnt worth it. Question is visualising and retrieval. The endoscope doesnt fit up his nose. Because there is so little discharge c&s might be difficult and like you said, needs to be deep to be more than just nasal commensals and contaminates. I have no idea if you can do deep retrieval in the method you suggested? again its looking at validity of the procedure, as his condition is currently stable and slightly improved since Tuesday.

With the scars he already has on his nose, lips, eyes (and ears, scruff....) i am keen to minimise any further tissue damage and scarring, particularly as he has a boxy head and tear ducts could become an issue. For a nasal flush, where do they go in? would that remove discharge and an FB? if its a hay seed they are barbed so it wouldnt flush out?

I havent asked about a referral as its not very "serious" yet, but i think if we decide visualising is needed i will get a referral as i know my vets dont have the right equipment.

I'll try to steam today and see what happens....

Steam and Snot

Had a go at the steam this morning. Didnt know how long for so ran the hot water until i could feel it in my lungs, then topped it up when it settled, for about half an hour.
They were very good, just sat together and Phoenix washed everyone. Kylo sneezed once or twice but nothing significant.

They've spent the rest of the day on the lawn. Just been out to see them and Kylo appears to have mucked up his face again - his bottom lip and top lips are brown again, but its not smeared all over his face. Definately some white/green snot in his nose, on both sides now. Not a lot but he hasnt cleaned it off which is new.

So do i go with
a) its probably Pasteurella, in which case save the abx for severe episodes to prevent resistance and just keep monitoring
b) trial NSAIDs to reduce the inflammation and see if he can clear the infection himself
c) aggressive abx therapy to clear the infection, and prevent him giving it to the girls (no signs as yet, even though they clean his face) which may not work
d) further investigation - suggestions???