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View Full Version : Sorry guys, teefs again.../Back from vets :-(



Hoppit!
14-04-2010, 03:25 PM
I know I keep going on and on about it, but I feel so desperate and helpless. Ginger had his last dental 8 days ago, but he's not 'recovered'. It usually takes him a day or 2 to be back to his bouncy bunny self, but if I didn't know better I would think they hadn't been done. I'm at a complete loss now. How can spurs possibly grow back so fast?!!

My mum's dropping hints about having him PTS, but I just can't do it. It's not like he's miserable all day every day - he was binkying up and down the corridor this morning! I think I'm just going to stick with the dentals every 3 weeks, and try and manage his discomfort with metacam. I don't want to hijack Thumps' thread going on about it, so I'll ask again now. Would it be practical for him to have 1ml (?) oral metacam every day. Would it be sufficient? What negetive side effects would it have? Would X-rays be a good idea - if so why, what are we looking for?

God, this is so stressful! :cry: Any suggestions greatly apprieciated. I just want my boy to be happy again.

thumps_
14-04-2010, 04:04 PM
I think XR would be helpful at the next dental. Looking at the tooth roots whether they are impinging on the surrounding bones causing pain etc.

It's always possible for a bun to have a stiff jaw & muscle spasm after treatment for molar spurs because the mouth has to be gagged open quite widely.

Thumps has had a couple of slow recoveries & always has metacam for 3 days after a dental. I treated him like a "gummy bunny" slicing the stalks of greens wafer thin, & any greens like fine ribbons. He'd eat dry leaves "melt in the mouth" - no chewing. Same idea moistening pellets.

Hoppit!
16-04-2010, 08:34 PM
Thanks Thumps.

Ginger's still not better. In fact he's worse. He's doing that 'hopping up to food, but not eating it' thing. I have never ever heard of a bun needing a dental every week. :? I'm just going to have to dose him up on metacam I think, and stick with every 3 weeks. I feel so incredibly guilty. :(

areia
16-04-2010, 08:37 PM
id ask vet about doseage frostys on 0.5 metacam everyday, shes 1.76 kg,

just ask and see if you can reduce it

there are people whohave buns on here with metacam everyday and so far havent had any real probs with it

thumps_
16-04-2010, 09:04 PM
I'm so sorry Hoppit. I think it best to forget about the side effects of metacam & just give what is needed to help Ginger to eat.
3 weeks must be the most frequent possible for molar spurs. Thumps has his burred down to gumline & it takes a 3 weeks to start to cause issues & a month to a dental.
Thumper likes the new hawthorn leaves at present. Easy to chew too.
I really do understand the anxiety, & worry. It's :censored:

ETA we have to remove the buds /flowers/berries from hawthorn cos they affect heart rate.

happysaz133
16-04-2010, 10:38 PM
Rosie didn't really react on Metacam, it worked for a while then seemed a bit useless :( plus it can affect the kidneys (if I'm wrong these someone please correct me!). However its well worth a try as lots of buns do well on it.

Poor Ginger :( its just not fair.

Hoppit!
21-04-2010, 09:27 AM
My mum's given me my dog's bottle of metacam. Does anyone know how much I should give him?

prettylupin
21-04-2010, 09:31 AM
Does the bottle say 1.5mg/ml strength?

If so, the dosage (provided there are no reasons vet feels bun can not have a full dose) is 0.4ml per kg of bunny body weight.
Nino is 1.5kg so I give him 0.6ml. When he has acute pain I can go up to 1ml but this is for when he is in acute bloat.

Hope Ginger feels better soon :)

ETA this dose is once every 24 hours. Some vets will let you split the dose over 12 hours but mine does not, I would check with your vet what is most appropriate for ginger. I find as far as pain relief goes it works for up to 12 hours but they say the anti-inflammatory properties work for longer, up to 24hrs and beyond.

thumps_
21-04-2010, 10:49 AM
Hoppit, it's a bit off topic.
I'm wondering whether Ginger has ongoing poor gut motility like Thumps has at the mo. I'm beginning to see that once they get it, with frequent dentals they don't have a chance to get over it fully, before they need a dental again. It may be worth considering a full course of stasis meds - metacam/metaclop/zantac for a week, tailing off over the last 3 days.

kayj
21-04-2010, 12:03 PM
You will have to phone your vet for the dosage as it is a prescrition only drug as we can all only advise of dosages we have been told to give our rabbits by our vets.

Hoppit!
21-04-2010, 07:16 PM
Thanks guys - I apprieciate you being so patient with me! :love:

I dosed Ginge up on metacam this morning but it didn't seem to help much. The vet is going to ring me tomorrow, and I've booked him in to go and see him on Friday too.

Thumps, I had put it down to his teeth, but you think it might be his tum? That would make a lot of sense actually as he just never got better after his dental 2 weeks ago. He's still eating, although not as much as he should be. He's not really touched his hay this week either. Would low gut motility cause him to be in pain then? I'll ask James about it tomorrow.

thumps_
21-04-2010, 08:35 PM
If you have a look on Thumper's current thread, about him not weeing, I've just not noticed that he's not been getting back on form with the frequent dentals, or how much less he's gradually been eating.

Ginger could be wanting food, cos he's low on nutrient, but can't get it into a full tummy, cos it's moving through more slowly. Thumper's got a sluggish lower gut - colon/caecum, & does well on zantac. metaclop doesn't touch his hypomotility. Metaclop works best on buns with higher GI hypomotility.;)

Mouth ulceration/infection need to be excluded too.

thumps_
22-04-2010, 03:53 PM
How have you got on with James today Hoppit?

Hoppit!
22-04-2010, 04:08 PM
How have you got on with James today Hoppit?

He's not phoned yet! I'm on absolute tenterhooks (weird I know cuz it's not like Ginger's in or anything)! I just wish he'd hurry up. The more I think about it the more likely it seems that it's the same sort of issue that Thumper's had. Hopefully James agrees and we'll be able to treat him sucessfully.

Pickles has been kissing him all day, the darling. He's the best brother in the world that bun! :love:

Hoppit!
22-04-2010, 05:42 PM
James thinks it's liver/kidney damage from the anesthetics. He's doing bloods tomorrow. My poor little boy bunny. What am I going to do if he thinks I should have him PTS? I can't lose my baby... :cry::cry::cry:

prettylupin
22-04-2010, 06:02 PM
Oh dear :cry: Well let's wait and see what the blood show up. I can imagine how worried you are though, so sorry :cry: I do hope you get some positive news from the blood results. Fingers and paws crossed for Ginger here x

thumps_
22-04-2010, 06:24 PM
James thinks it's liver/kidney damge from the anesthetics. He's doing bloods tomorrow. My poor little boy bunny. What am I going to do if he thinks I should have him PTS? I can't lose my baby... :cry::cry::cry:

Please don't go down that road just yet. There's a ray of hope for you. We saw Minh urgently when Marie was away. He thought the same, but Thumper's bloods came back incredibly normal, in fact his liver & kidneys were working better than normal!

Without any hard evidence at all & not knowing Thumps like Marie does, Minh thought he was playing me up for choice tasting foods!!!!

I hope the bloods come back quickly. Ginger went a long time for that last dental, he could have well got chronic gut slow down. Fingers crossed they are normal, or compatable with hypomotility. The more I think about it, the more I feel it's worth a go of stasis treatment from top to bottom ie metclop + zantac. Hang on in there bonny lass.

Hoppit!
22-04-2010, 07:10 PM
Please don't go down that road just yet. There's a ray of hope for you. We saw Minh urgently when Marie was away. He thought the same, but Thumper's bloods came back incredibly normal, in fact his liver & kidneys were working better than normal!

Without any hard evidence at all & not knowing Thumps like Marie does, Minh thought he was playing me up for choice tasting foods!!!!

I hope the bloods come back quickly. Ginger went a long time for that last dental, he could have well got chronic gut slow down. Fingers crossed they are normal, or compatable with hypomotility. The more I think about it, the more I feel it's worth a go of stasis treatment from top to bottom ie metclop + zantac. Hang on in there bonny lass.

Aww, thankyou! You know I really needed someone to tell me that! I know in my heart he's not ready to go - he's been out on his grass all day (by choice) having a good graze all afternoon, so it's not like he's completely miserable. I've still been wondering whether I'm being cruel though.

When I spoke to James he brushed over the gut motility thing. I'm going to be more insistent at the consult tomorrow though - surely it's worth a try?

Thanks prettylupin too - I think we need all the vibes we can get!

thumps_
22-04-2010, 07:18 PM
Aww, thankyou! You know I really needed someone to tell me that - I know in my heart he's not ready to go. He's been out on his grass all day (by choice) having a good graze all afternoon, so it's not like he's completely miserable. I've still been wondering whether I'm being cruel though.

When I spoke to James he brushed over the gut motility thing. I'm going to be more insistent at the consult tomorrow though - surely it's worth a try?

Thanks prettylupin too - I think we need all the vibes we can get!

It's unfortunate that Marie is away until next Wed. or James could chat to her. Many vets. don't like the internet sites - anaphyllactic shock (to you first aiders!) An alternative is that he could phone me personally NOT a vet but to descibe Thumper's case.

happysaz133
22-04-2010, 09:33 PM
Good vibes from me too, anything is worth a try. Doesn't sound like he's anywhere near ready to go!

Hoppit!
23-04-2010, 04:24 PM
We just got back. He checked their teeth, and Ginge will need doing again next week. We've agreed to have bloods done when he's under for his dental now, just to be certain, but James is sure that it is organ damage that's the problem. He wouldn't go for the stasis meds at all, as Ginger is still eating some and using his littertray.

He made it very clear I should be 'making the decision'.

thumps_
23-04-2010, 04:55 PM
I know it's difficult, but James is right. He's there examining Ginger, but if this approach draws a blank, with reasonable bloods, as I hope it will, as a last ditch stand against pts we can ask for a trial of stasis drugs. Marie will be back by then to discuss Ginger's case vet to vet if necessary.

Many drugs are metabolised in the liver, many need to be excreted in the kidneys. We have to know what liver & kidney function is like or the standard doses accumulate in the body until they become toxic.

Please don't despair, keep on going. Pickles is doing a great job grooming Ginger, it seems to help a bun to keep going if they are poorly. It also helps if you can be calm when you are with him, & stroke him.

We're behind you on this one.