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Quiz/Educate the Vet Student!

VikkiVet

Mama Doe
Hey All :wave::wave:
Noticed recently that there seems to be an increasing number of people confused or dissatisfied with their vets - diagnosis, treatment, communication, billing, etc etc

Obviously i can't provide all the answers, but i'd just like the opportunity to do something constructive! So if people feel so compelled, feel free to either ask me a question about vets - what we learn, why we do things, etc - or tell me something you wish vets knew/did/explained etc

This will be particularly helpful for me as we have just started a "small furries" clinical club at uni for students interested in rabbit and rodent medicine, so it will help to know what owners are concerned about.

Please don't abuse me, i only want to help! :oops: :D
 
I am happy with my vets and the support I have had from them. They have always been helpful and kind with my bunnies and when I used to keep hamsters. Being a larger practice, there is one who I prefer to deal with.

The only time I had a bit of concern about one of them's rabbit knowledge is when I was asked by one when admiring my elderly female rexes fur if I clipped it 'as it was all the one length'. When I pointed out that it was because of her breed being a rex (whilst trying to keep a straight face) she got a bit defensive and said that she knew that - she seemed a bit embarrassed more than anything. So if I had a question it would be do they teach about breeds of rabbits and the different problems they can experience.

Really pleased about the interest being taken on rabbits by vets:)
 
I am more than happy with my vet but I have seen another vet in our practice who was really bad with her injections.....my boy was used as a pin cushion! :roll:

So I'd like to know how much training do you get on giving injections? Not just for rabbits but any animal :wave:
 
My bone of contention (or should that be carrot of contention :?) is always why are so many Vets STILL not prescribing analgesia to Rabbits who clearly have a problem likely to cause pain ????????????
 
My bone of contention (or should that be carrot of contention :?) is always why are so many Vets STILL not prescribing analgesia to Rabbits who clearly have a problem likely to cause pain ????????????

Agree with this.

Even when ive clearly had a bun here in pain, some vets just wont prescribe pain relief :(

Your a star Vikki, im hoping you'll come and be a vet down our end :D ;) Payment for bunny sitting = you move next door to me in the empty bungalow? ;) xXx
 
I know you can't speak for all vets, but I wonder if you'd have an insight into this psychology..

My excellent rabbit vets in oxfordshire, she and her husband have 30 domestic rabbits of their own freeranging in their garden, but they both hunt and shoot as their main pastime and they kill rabbits daily, and eat them several times a week.

I really don't understand the psychology of this... here she is sowing up my bunny's ear because it's got a little tear in it and saying how cute she is, and then that afternoon she's off to shoot and eat rabbits.

It's like a doctor who is also a serial killer!

Do you find that you feel a very distinct difference between wild and domesticated animals?
 
Here's my question:
Will you please practice at my vets, as our very bunny savvy vet has left and I'm finding it difficult to find a new one :cry:
 
Hi Vicki
Just wondered how much of your curriculum is devoted to buns & other small furries? Would this be the same across all vet schools in the UK or do they vary? Or is the expectation that if you are interested in this area of practice that you specialise post graduation?
Just trying to gain some insight into the differences between the UK & here.
My sister in law is a vet here & has said her training here in NZ was woefully lacking when it came to the small furries (only one vet school here @ Massey Uni).
Can I just say at this point that I value your input into the forum & if you ever think of practising abroad then NZ needs good bunny vets :)

PS I don't have any moans about my bunny vet, he is older, Dutch trained & specialises in exotics & is just fab really. The buns love him which is the main thing. However when he goes on holiday I am in terror that the buns will get sick! And one day he will retire.....:(
 
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What an excellent thread Vikki and thank you!

My question is the same as Jane's really. When Parsnip recently broke his leg, I was referred from my bunny-savvy vet to an orthopaedic surgeon. Clearly he knew his stuff when it came to bones but post-op, administered minimal pain relief. I was sent home with cat-strength metacam and the minimum dose for a rabbit. Fortunately, I already had dog-strength metacam at home so I administered the usual dose of that as advised by my bunny-savvy vet. But I think it's really important that new vets (and existing ones come to that) realise that bunnies need the correct pain relief if they're to start eating after a trauma of any kind. We all know that a bunny who doesn't eat is going to go downhill within hours.
 
The only time I had a bit of concern about one of them's rabbit knowledge is when I was asked by one when admiring my elderly female rexes fur if I clipped it 'as it was all the one length'. When I pointed out that it was because of her breed being a rex (whilst trying to keep a straight face) she got a bit defensive and said that she knew that - she seemed a bit embarrassed more than anything. So if I had a question it would be do they teach about breeds of rabbits and the different problems they can experience.

Thats a weird one - i have rexes myself and as you say would expect their fur to be all one length on appearance. Can only suggest she meant as in one coat type - unlike lops for example that have an undercoat and a topcoat. This is why rexes dont like getting cold! But thats normal for rexes...

No we dont get taught anything much about specific breeds, mainly because very little research is done into breed-specific illness (hence the topic of my recent course work). Considerations for handling, drug doses, anaesthesia etc are given for both very large breeds and very small breeds in general, as is with dogs, but not breed specific.
 
So I'd like to know how much training do you get on giving injections? Not just for rabbits but any animal :wave:

We get lots of training in general on giving injections and by different routes. training varies between universities, but at the RVC we have a Clinical Skills Centre where we practice on specially made dummy animals and do mock work on real animals for various procedures (they dont actually get injected etc, we just do the handling and injection prep etc). On placement most vet students get lots of opportunity to do injections for real eg vaccinations, IV anaesthetics etc. As with all people and all professions, some people are better than others, and some patients are also better than others. As an example, Kylo my boy bun has skin on his scruff so thick he needs a higher guage needle - he bent the vax needle! That wasnt the vets fault, its just from old injuries. I guess in your case the vet in question should consider practicing their technique if they struggled - depends on what kind of injection they were doing though.
 
My bone of contention (or should that be carrot of contention :?) is always why are so many Vets STILL not prescribing analgesia to Rabbits who clearly have a problem likely to cause pain ????????????

yeah this one annoys me too. I think sadly it goes back to that old chestnut of "stoical" animals and it does "appear" to be in pain. From the recent lectures i have had when rabbits were mentioned, a lot of attention as given to calm, quiet handling techniques and perioperative analgesia and monitoring etc. But i think a lot of vets still dont prescribe analgesia to take home. As a client definately always ask for pain relief if its not offered - rarely will it be refused and if so they'll give reasons. Its in the RCVS code of ethics that pain cannot be used as a means of restraint or sedation i.e. if the animal is in pain it wont want to move, which is good for it etc. The same issue occurs in farm animals, where analgesia is rarely prescribed because animals without analgesia (historically) heal and go on to be productive so its not seen as necessary. But recent research has shown things like dairy cows having better milk yields if given analgesia for assisted calvings etc. so the trend is shifting there.
I put it on RU a while back, but when we did a problem solving on stasis in rabbits, analgesia was seen as optional or not necessarily essential :censored::censored: and i got told off for being too vociferous about what a load of :censored::censored: that was! And that was the head of exotics at the uni......so sadly its not getting through to all vets, i think particularly older practitioners. It shouldnt be the case, but if clients keep asking for it, that might actually educate vets from the bottom up to consider analgesia in all rabbits.
 
I dont want to doubt my vet,I adore him to bits.Hes very good with my lot...and he copes with me very well.Im very happy.but this thread is good.
Well done Vikki.xxxx
 
My excellent rabbit vets in oxfordshire, she and her husband have 30 domestic rabbits of their own freeranging in their garden, but they both hunt and shoot as their main pastime and they kill rabbits daily, and eat them several times a week.

Do you find that you feel a very distinct difference between wild and domesticated animals?

I think this vet is certainly an exception to the rule, but i can only suggest that she views rabbits like livestock. I can very happily stitch a wound on a beef bullock knowing it will be going for slaughter the following week for example. Its just about mental perception of the animal. I often name lambs when they are born, and cuddle them, talk to them, get very very frustrated if they get sick or fall in a bucket of water or are roughly handled by someone else etc, but i am still totally fine with eating them when they grow up. It is a bit weird to actually have them as pets - i think thats where there should be a distinction - i will cuddle a lamb at 48 hours old, but its got 6 months of not being humanised before slaughter. If you're going to bond with an animal it seems a little bizarre to then slaughter it. My only exception is dairy cows that commonly become quite humanised simply by daily interaction over many years, but are usually ultimately slaughtered at the end of their useful life.
 
Just wondered how much of your curriculum is devoted to buns & other small furries? Would this be the same across all vet schools in the UK or do they vary? Or is the expectation that if you are interested in this area of practice that you specialise post graduation?

Sadly, very little time is dedicated solely to rabbits and rodents. The main curriculum works from "first principles" and each vet school has their own model(s). at the RVC is the dog and horse, and so we learn most things in these species, and then the differences to other species. Except where there are species-specific diseases when they are taught directly e.g. laminitis in horses. other vet schools use the pig as a base (which is interesting as its the exception to almost every rule!) In the 4th year (so next year for me), before students start their final year in clinics, there is a week of rabbit medicine teaching but it is sadly often poorly attended. Even now students dont appreciate the frequency at which they will see rabbits in practice nor the range of treatments and options available or the special considerations rabbits need. You can definately specialise - both before graduation during electives, and post graduation with CPD and working for dedicated practices. With the increase in vets going into small animal only practrices, hopefully this will also filter down to an increase in teaching on rabbits and rodents.
 
What an excellent thread Vikki and thank you!

My question is the same as Jane's really. When Parsnip recently broke his leg, I was referred from my bunny-savvy vet to an orthopaedic surgeon. Clearly he knew his stuff when it came to bones but post-op, administered minimal pain relief. I was sent home with cat-strength metacam and the minimum dose for a rabbit. Fortunately, I already had dog-strength metacam at home so I administered the usual dose of that as advised by my bunny-savvy vet. But I think it's really important that new vets (and existing ones come to that) realise that bunnies need the correct pain relief if they're to start eating after a trauma of any kind. We all know that a bunny who doesn't eat is going to go downhill within hours.

Just to add to what i posted in reply to Jane's question - i would never recommend changing the drug strength or dose without previous discussion with the vet. Even with experience and knowledge, its not a good idea to go against the vet especially as it can lead to complications. Drugs are broken down differently in rabbits to other animals - different liver enzymes and gut system. I know you had the best intentions and i'm sure the outcome was fine, but if you are not happy with a drug in terms of strength, dose, duration of action etc definately discuss with the vet, even if that means going home then ringing them later once you've thought about it etc.
Some vets do now prescribe metaclop and analgesia to all sick rabbits because of the stasis/pain issue, others go on a case-basis which is actually more sensible. Remember other aspects can help to relieve pain and discomfort e.g. heat, bedding, quiet, darkness, companionship etc.
 
Sadly i cannot come and work at EVERYONE's local vet practice, whereever in the world you are! I start my first proper placement next week and i am very nervous and excited about it. I am hoping to see as many practices as possible in the next 2 and a half years before i qualify, so if anyone wants to recommend one to me please feel free.

In reply to the kind comments, i reeeeeeeeeally appreciate RUs support and advice and encouragement. As i said, rabbits dont get enough emphasis at vet school and i am fully considered "that mad rabbit student" but thats fine with me - its working out well as people even in upper years occasionally come to me with questions so if i can spread awareness of the issues then thats all a good thing.

keep the questions coming - its been really interesting and helpful so far!
 
Sadly i cannot come and work at EVERYONE's local vet practice, whereever in the world you are! I start my first proper placement next week and i am very nervous and excited about it. I am hoping to see as many practices as possible in the next 2 and a half years before i qualify, so if anyone wants to recommend one to me please feel free.

In reply to the kind comments, i reeeeeeeeeally appreciate RUs support and advice and encouragement. As i said, rabbits dont get enough emphasis at vet school and i am fully considered "that mad rabbit student" but thats fine with me - its working out well as people even in upper years occasionally come to me with questions so if i can spread awareness of the issues then thats all a good thing.

keep the questions coming - its been really interesting and helpful so far!

Contact Ian.Hes a bunny man...Abbotskerswell, Devon.xxxx
 
Brilliant thread.:D

for vets in general(as ours is brill )...

Please listen. (I'm sure you do)

Thats the most important advice I can think of.

We all know our rabbits individual traits and if we say ...
we think they're in pain...
are unhappy...
would be better at home...
will drink more from a bowl...

etc.

Please tell us why you intend to do something to our rabbit or why you think our suggestion would not be a good idea. Please offer alternatives if they are of equal quality.
Please give us as much information as possible.
Please give us leaflets where available.

Please do not be grumpy if we say we have heard such and such a treatment works. If you have not heard of it please be willing to consult a more senior vet to find out more, without taking offence. Doctors regularly consult specialists without taking offence and vets should do the same.

Don't be afraid to say-"I don't know, but I will find out for you." We will respect you more for that, as we know rabbit treatments are constantly evolving.

Please think about the normal stance of a rabbit when handling. (I was dismayed when a vet(not our normal vet!!) grabbed both my bunnys back legs in the air so bunny was just balanced on 2 front paws instead of all 4, bunny's back arched backwards, while the vet took bun's temperature. So unnecessary) Gentle handling for these gentle creatures please.

You clearly care and will be an expert rabbit vet.:D -sue:wave:

If you get the chance to work with Jason Burgess -take it!
 
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