E cuniculi - what else should I do?

Our beautiful three and a half year old lop has head tilt and e cuniculi. The blood test revealed a high count of 1:640. Buttercup is being given panacur, baytril and metacam daily. She also has a penicillin injection every other day. She has had head tilt for 16 days and despite being seen by our vet and started on panacur and baytril with an hour of being found like it (in the morning when my husband went to feed them - she and her husban are house rabbits) she has got worse not better and for the last two days has been unable to stand or walk although she is still eating and drinking herself and her apetite is good.
Buttercup is easy to nurse and medicate and I am prepared to do whatever it takes to get her well - I am at the point though where I don't know if I am doing the right thing keeping her alive as I don't know how much of a good enough recovery is possible if there is brain damage etc. Her head is now on the floor of her cage and is only lifted to drink and eat. She is still feisty and loving, my heart is breaking and I would love some advice from others who have been in a similar situation.

I dont have experience with EC but there are plenty on here who do who can give you some advice but just wanted to say welcome to the forum and im so sorry to hear your Buttercup is ill - she sounds like a very much loved bun. I too have house bunnies and I know how close you get to them.

Hope you stay here and keep us updated x

Thanks for the kind words. I am hoping someone will be able to help as I really feel 'out on a limb' as I don't know what is best for Buttercup.

I have a friend who took in an EC fully upside down bun who did full washing machine rolling and who had to be propped up to keep him upright. He also needed help to eat and drink at first.

She has nursed him through it and despite his head still being sideways, he hops around quite happily and looks perfectly normal apart from his head being sewn on wrong . To be honest, when I first met him I wondered if it was fair to keep him going as he seemed to be distressed. However, I am told that he feels he is the right way up and it's us lot that are wrong and actually he didn't really have too much of a problem himself.

This lovely bunny, who we call The Wonkey Donkey, is now married to another EC bun who doesn't have symptoms currently, and is a very happy camper. I think the only thing that my friend has to do is lubricate one of his eyes as it gets dry.

If you'd like her contact details, I feel sure that she'd be happy to speak to you about her experience so far.

Helen

Hello! :wave:

I've just been treating my Jess for e.cuniculi (there is a thread about her - http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=215679&highlight=jess) so I know how you're feeling. Luckily, Jess never got to the point where she couldn't stand but she did have a prolonged period of not being able to move without leaning on something - she'd go round her cage in circles leaning onto the edge.

Jess has been on Panacur and Meloxodyl (anti-inflamatory, virtually the same as Metacam!) for quite some time. Much longer than the recommended 28 days. Hopefully she will be coming off her meds soon, she is 99% better now, just with a slight head tilt and a tendancy to run in diagonal lines! :lol: When I first found her trembling, I realised something wasn't right and got her straight to the vet. I was hoping I'd caught it early and it would be easy to treat but she got much worse even though she was being medicated. For the first three or so weeks of treatment, she steadily got worse - fitting every time I moved her and stumbling about like a drunk - but she slowly started to pick up and is now very nearly back to her old self, binkying all over the place and stuffing her face with food. I felt it would be kinder to have her PTS for a long time but the folks on RU told me to persist and I'm glad I did. There is life after EC for many bunnies!

I was advised that I should give her antibiotics (such as Baytril) too but my vet wouldn't co-operate and wouldn't perscribe any for her. She has done fine without it but I do wonder if she would have recovered quicker if I'd used it. I've never heard of Penicillin being used as a treatment for EC. :? Do you do these injections yourself or are you taking her to the vet every other day? I found if I moved Jess, she would have a funny turn and I'd often not be able to sit her in any other posistion than upside down when I put her back in her cage. :shock: I avoided picking her up like the plague (even giving her her medicine when she was sat in her cage still) and didn't go to the vet at all whilst I was treating her as the stress seemed to send her totally backwards, causing seizures and rolling. Obviously, I'm not a vet so don't feel you have to take my advice buuuuut... I'd consider stopping the penicillin injections and just keep her comfortable at home. Penicillin can also cause poo related problems in bunnies and that'd be a nightmare for a bun that's not able to groom herself properly.

EC is passed from bunny to bunny via spores in the urine. The spores can hang around for quite some time after the wee has dried up so you should bleach all Buttercup's housing, bowls, water bottle etc on days 21 and 28 of treatment (and bleach it as soon as possible if any other bunnies have access to it!). This is to kill off the spores and prevent her from becoming reinfected once you've finished the treatment. It's obviously important to use a weak solution of bleach. I made my solution up with 10% bleach and 90% hot water. You also need to leave everything to dry properly before using it again. Any blankets or fleeces etc you may use for your bunnies will need to go in the washing machine on a hot setting with plenty of washing powder. If they were cheap, I'd advise chucking them out and getting new ones when she's better though to be honest. It saves a lot of worry! :lol:

Also, it's really important to Panacur Buttercup's husbun too if you're not already. He will need the 28 day course. He's probably already carrying the illness, most bunnies are to a certain extent, it just seems it only develops in the unlucky ones. If you don't treat him, you could find that either he may develop it at a later date or that he could re-infect Buttercup again.

Jess has now been on her meds since 3rd february. She was still not well at all at the 28 day point so I have used my initiative and continued her medicine. I'm now nearly finishing my last tube of Panacur and will stop after that. She is happy in herself and active again so I think she's just about cured!

Don't give up on little Buttercup. I didn't think Jess would make it but she's proved me wrong. :wave:

Just also wanted to add, you can order Panacur online for much less than it costs from the vet. I got mine from here - http://www.vetuk.co.uk/index.php?ma...ucts_id=1105&zenid=86ih3kkduha94kgmesq72v5j72 - saved me a lot as Jess's husbun is a conti and he was having a third of a tube in one go! :roll::lol:

Hi,

Just wanted to say stick with it, one of my bunnies, Oscar had EC last year, what started off with a bit of a wobble, then went downhill very fast. I took him to the vets straight away and he was on Panacur and metacam. Over the course of the next 7 days his head twisted right round and he could not stay on his feet, he stayed in his tunnel all the time. He couldn't find water etc so my mum & family (he was staying with them while I was on holiday) gave him water every two hours and offered anything and everything to keep him eating. He then went to their local vets and they gave him baytril too, but said if there's no improvement he may need to b pts. My mum carried on and little by little he started to recover. It took a long time, about 1 month from the start of the treatment till he could start getting betterand getting round the indoor cage without rolling everywhere. After another month he was stable enough to be able to be let out into an enclosed space, he did take quite a while to get used to his new view of the world and he did roll over a bit but I stayed near him and gradually he's be able to hop around in a straightish line (he did circle a lot to begin with). After he'd built up his strength his head began to straighten a bit and I could re-bond him with Pippa. He was on medication for 2 months I think, now he only has the slightest of head tilt, but doesn't stop him.

Keep going with the medication, and hold a bottle near his mouth to help him drink.

Good luck.

x

Thank you for taking the time to give all this info.

Right now Buttercup is just led on her side staring in to space although she has had a stick of celery, some hay and a few pellets this morning. She also took a dislike to a plastic container I was feeding her from and picked it up and tossed it to the side. She is rolling more today though too.

I have already started her husbun Squirrel on panacur - this is day 3 - he is on the paste although Buttercup is on the suspension.

The penicillin is injected just under the skin and we do this at home, like I said she is easy to medicate and cooperates well.

I am not 100% convinced it is 'just' E cuniculi - by that I mean I am wondering if there is something else going on too that is neurological in nature. My worry is too that I have read that 'brain damage' caused by E cuniculi or stroke etc is irrepairable so does this mean she will be unable to walk for the rest of her life?

I wish I could justify putting her through all this - I don't think she is in pain, she does get distressed when she rolls and she looks so sad as she can't get around just stares in to space. However when I'm holding her or sat with her she responds to my voice, rubs her nose on me and constantly licks me, my clothes and anything else including the towel she is led on.

I am about to take her outside to sit with her in the sun for a couple of minutes. I won't leave her alone at all obviously but thought the sun would be good for the two of us. I feel so sad and despite a busy family life so alone as no one seems to be able to help.

Thanks for your kind words.

Ruth

The way Oscar was at his worst and for about 2-3 weeks afer that I thought he'd never be able to walk in a straight line again and was on the verge of having him pts due to quakity of life but he suddenly turned a corner, although it really does take time, to most people now he just looks inquisitive with his head ever so slightly tilted. Sorry I don't have photos during his worst to show you the difference from then to now. Honnestly the transformation is amazing once they begin their recovery, my vet did warn me when I first took him that he would get worse before he got better and there would be many troughs. Oscar was always very bright, and was much calmer when someone was with him and he seemed to be fighting which was why we stuck with it.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and your bunny.

On our way to see Jason Burgess at Quedgeley - have a 5pm appt but it's an hour and a half drive - leaving now, will update later - fingers crossed for Buttercup please xx

Hiya,
I'm so sorry to hear buttercup has this, none of my buns have ever had it
(touch wood) but I can truly imagine how horrific it must be for you and of course her. I hope it went well at the vets, please keep us posted
xxx

Hi:wave:

I'm Jo...the one The Duchess is referring to in her earlier post.

I have experience of a rabbit who was rolling 24/7 with EC so can probably give you some good advice.

I think it's important to say that even though it looks quite distressing I don't actually think it impacts the quality of life greatly for the rabbit - obviously in the early stages it's very confusing for the bun but it's worth giving them a chance.

There are things you can do to help them feel stable such as bolstering their home with rolled up towels so they can lean against them - I found it helpful to give just enough space so Wonkey Donks could wedge himself into a good position he was comfortable in. I found a water bottle was the best way of enabling him to drink which he managed really well (even upsidedown!!).

If the eyelid is getting dry and pushed up because of rolling you'll need something like visco-tears to keep it moist and you need to check it regularly to make sure nothing is stuck - like hay. Metacam is a good call for it's anti-inflammatory properties.

If the bunny is rolling make sure there is nothing they can get their feet / paws/neck stuck in and roll themselves into a state in it (such as a blanket with holes in it or loose threads).

It's important to gently massage the bunny's neck and shoulders as they will become stiff holding themselves in the same position. Don't go too gung-ho otherwise it'll ache the next day so just a little bit at a time....

I also think it's a good idea that they are with their companion as much as possible to make them feel normal - also their rabbit friend will be the same height as them so they will get a sense from them of what is upright and 'normal'.

Wonkey Donkey now lives with 3 girlfriends, still has quite a pronounced head tilt and rolls once every hour or so but he loves life and I wouldn't change what I went through with him to get him to this point. He even eats whilst he rolling so i'm sure he isn't that fussed, and i maintain he thinks we're all on the wonk and he's up the right way!!

If I can help any further please let me know.

Good luck.
Jo

one of the family said:

On our way to see Jason Burgess at Quedgeley - have a 5pm appt but it's an hour and a half drive - leaving now, will update later - fingers crossed for Buttercup please xx

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sorry if u were late going in to see Jason!! my appointment for Tinkerbell was at 4.30 to see him and I don't think I came out of his room until gone 5.15! :lol: she is showing early signs of what possibly could be EC, so Jason is treating her accordingly

vibes for both our bunnies

Hi Ruth.

Any news?

As Jo above has already said, Wonks does really well and if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes yesterday I wouldn't have believed that he was so happy and active. He was running around his compound with his three wives like a loon and thoroughly enjoying himself. Not the same rabbit I saw last year when Jo took him in. He still has a bonkey head but it really doesn't seem to bother him! Makes him even more special.

Helen

Buttercup saw Jason and for the first time in 17 days I was given hope!!
She has had her meds upped and so has her husbun Squirrel as Jason said the dosage was too low and needed a more aggressive approach.
We have stopped the penicillin. The panacur for Squirrel is precautionary obviously but at a higher dose than we had been advised by our not so rabbit savvy vets.

Buttercup is eating well and had a more settled night's sleep last night than she's had since the second night of the illness.

Indigo - I saw you come out and heard you say to the receptionist about e cuniculi. I couldn't even come to speak to you because I thought I was going to be told there was nothing else to be done for Buttercup and that she would need to be put to sleep. I was only just holding it together.
Good luck with your baby bun xx

I am so pleased we went to see Jason. Buttercup is certainly worth fighting for and with!!

I will update as and when I can (12 hour shifts allowing where the care of Buttercup is surrendered to my husband, mother and children - should I be worried - oh yes!!!)
Appreciate the kind words and positive vibes - thank you

one of the family said:

Buttercup saw Jason and for the first time in 17 days I was given hope!!
She has had her meds upped and so has her husbun Squirrel as Jason said the dosage was too low and needed a more aggressive approach.
We have stopped the penicillin. The panacur for Squirrel is precautionary obviously but at a higher dose than we had been advised by our not so rabbit savvy vets.

Buttercup is eating well and had a more settled night's sleep last night than she's had since the second night of the illness.

Indigo - I saw you come out and heard you say to the receptionist about e cuniculi. I couldn't even come to speak to you because I thought I was going to be told there was nothing else to be done for Buttercup and that she would need to be put to sleep. I was only just holding it together.
Good luck with your baby bun xx

I am so pleased we went to see Jason. Buttercup is certainly worth fighting for and with!!

I will update as and when I can (12 hour shifts allowing where the care of Buttercup is surrendered to my husband, mother and children - should I be worried - oh yes!!!)
Appreciate the kind words and positive vibes - thank you

Click to expand...

Jason is fab isn't he? Tinks is on a hefty dose of panacur and seems none the worse for it, it feels like she's lost a little weight and she's a little nippy about it, but well in herself and acting normally etc, she's still weeing lots but most of that is in litter trays at least!

How is Buttercup doing?

E-cuniculi

What a terrible thing this is!!!

I had to have my rabbit put to sleep when he contracted this awful disease last year. After numerous trips to the vets, I felt like they were filling me with false hope.

Ziggy couldn't even stand up, I had to prop him up as well as I could at the side of the hutch on towels and he stopped eating afer about 5 days and wouldn't accept syringe food.

In my opinion he had given up himself just weeing and pooing where he lay. It was a terrible terrible sight to see and I felt that I made the right decision for him albeit a little too late.

I couldn't even go with my OH to be with him when he was put to sleep as I was at work and his condition had deteriorated even more. It was hellish to have to make that decision over the phone.

I will think very carefully if I ever have another rabbit with the same condition although I am with a better vet now, who recommends a longer course of panacur instead of the 9 day course everyone else recommends.

Fortunately for you, you have a rabbit with fight on your side whereas Ziggy didn't want to fight anymore.

I really really do hope that you can pull your bun through, it sounds as if bun really does want to get better but whatever you do, do the right thing for bun!! tons and tons of get well vibes xx :roll:

We have an EC sucess story. Simon at the Cat and Rabbit Clinic in Northampton just sucessfully cleared our Alice up of EC.

She was all over the place, spinning, flicking eyes. He put her on Penecillin which is supposed to be magic in rabbits. A few days later she was doing well and now a week later. Well, I couldnt tell she ever had anything wrong.

Hey, how is Buttercup

Ok I hope!!

Becks

I haven't read all this so forgive me if I repeat things.

Mischa had severe headtilt and EC when he was one. He had baytril, injections and panacur and nothing seemed to be working. He was proper bad, couldn't stand up, rolling for ages, I remember looking at him and bursting into tears he just couldn't keep upright. The only way to get him comfortable was to lay him on my chest and put his head in between my bosoms :lol: I did some research online which , among other things, said to give cool tea, herbal tea, I did, I don't know if it helped or not.

Anyway, if you see any improvement, even the smallest glimmer, keep going. Two or three weeks later we started to see improvement, less rolling, still severely tilted and unbalanced but he could stand for a while. We went to the vets who said he needed to be PTS but we refused. The improvement wasn't noticeable in a few minute examination but at home we could see it was there.

He is still alive. No after-effects whatsoever apart from a dewlap which might not even have been from that and which is reducing. He's four this year.

ETA. Mischa has a HELL of an appetite. We think this helped him a great deal also. He didn't give up and would continue eating, ok, so sometimes only his very favourite things but anything was a bonus. I tried once with recovery food and he hated it, but would still nibble on things like raisins and treats (he had a bad diet then!)