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I need help with a decision.....

J

Jenefina

Mama Doe
Just to give you a bit of background.... Pye is 3 on Saturday and for the last two years he has suffered from episodes of what I think is the start of bloat. Last year wee had it down to every 5 weeks or so and he was always pretty much bang on the mark but in December he went badly down hill.

The dates just so you can get an idea were:
  • 7th July 09
  • 2nd Sept 09
  • 11th Nov 09
  • 27th Nov 09
  • 17th Dec 09
  • 23rd Dec 09
  • 18th Jan 10
  • 4th Feb 10

All of the times I have caught it early and within an hour or so of him getting metacam and metaclop he is running about and stuffing his face but I have never continued the drugs afterwards as I have only recently read about this.

The last episode i caught it early again but he made no response to his meds and so the vet decided to xray to see if there was anything there that shouldn't be. All that was there was food and a teeny bit of gas. About three days later he was back to normal but this time I haven't stopped the meds and he is on 2ml of metaclop a day and I haven't got an end date.

Anyway, we sent his xrays and history to FHB last week and today I got a call off a rather curt receptionist who said I couldn't speak to FHB and I would have to bring him down for an appointment but FHB had mentioned surgery was pretty much a given.

Now Harrogate is a 2 hour drive and Pye does not travel well and I am petrified of my little man going into surgery. So to end this mega post, do i continue with the metaclop and finish a two week course and see how he is then (I'm also nearly finished swapping him from Burgess to SS in the vain hope that will help) or do I bite the bullet, take him to FHB and risk a surgery, the thought of which makes me feel sick and reduces me to tears every time I think of it? I know I am being mostly selfish and thinking more of me than him which is why I hoped I could get some other opinions.....
 
can you not get your vet to speak to the vet and then your vet can pass on what they both think rather than a stroppy receptionist passing on a rubbish message?
 
I would ask your Vet to contact FHB and speak with her to obtain more details of what she is suggesting.
I would not agree to exploratory surgery on the GI tract of a Rabbit without a lengthy and detailed discussion with the Vet suggesting it.

I note Pye is a Nethie, I am assuming a full Dental examination has already been carried out ?

What about blood tests ?
 
Hey Donna, Just read that your boy has had some tests, i really hope he's ok.

Neil, my vet, has stepped back from it a bit and I understand why. I wrote the letter that went with all Pye's medical history as I know him, I know everything he does, eats, acts like. Neil sees him when I run in and demand jabs and now he's seen an xray... I guess if he spoke to FHB he'd be a bit clueless about a lot of the stuff. All I really want to know is if I make this appointment, is it basically a surgical appointment, how long do they normally keep buns in after whatever it is she's planning on doing and what are the chances of me seeing me beautiful baby boy again....
 
This is purely guesswork, but I would say that judging by the number of episodes you are probably dealing with discomfort caused by gas....which may or may not be diet related. Has diet been looked into?

Full blown stasis tends to take weeks for a rabbit to recover, and bloat is sudden and usually fatal, so I doubt he would recover from bloat so many times.

Bloat tends to be a very overused/misused term for any kind of GI problem. Proper bloat is usually caused by GI obstruction or parasites (e.g. coccidia)...which may be why FHB talked about surgery?
 
Jack's-Jane said:
I would ask your Vet to contact FHB and speak with her to obtain more details of what she is suggesting.
I would not agree to exploratory surgery on the GI tract of a Rabbit without a lengthy and detailed discussion with the Vet suggesting it.

I note Pye is a Nethie, I am assuming a full Dental examination has already been carried out ?

What about blood tests ?
Click to expand...

I'm assuming that the lengthy discussion is what FHB wants to have but face to face but I did mention in my letter to her about him being a bad traveller which is why I was shocked to get such a curt call from a receptionist....

Pye does have a bit of nethie in him and he's had a check with the vet where they've looked in his mouth and they couldn't see anything and because he is super greedy with his hay it was kinda ruled out.... I'm now kicking myself that when he had his tum xrayed he didn't have the same done on his teeth but I was always under the impression that scoffing hay like its going out of fashion was a goods sign :oops:

WRT blood tests, what sort of thing would they look for? Neil, my vet, is fantastic, he's saved Pye on so many occasions, even stayed out of hours to wait for us but he has held his hands up in that he is stuck. He's suggested if I don't want to go to see FHB to continue with the daily metaclop and then after say 5-10 weeks if he has been fine to stop it and see if the ss pellets do the trick on there own or if it then becomes apparent that the metaclop was the only thing stopping it, if its the latter its a two hour drive....
 
Well bloods might give some indication of if their is a chronic inflammatory condition going on.

What are his exact symptoms when he has an 'episode' ?
Are they of sudden onset ?

Has he ever been prescribed Ranitidine (Zantac) ?
 
Jack's-Jane said:
Well bloods might give some indication of if their is a chronic inflammatory condition going on.

What are his exact symptoms when he has an 'episode' ?
Are they of sudden onset ?

Has he ever been prescribed Ranitidine (Zantac) ?
Click to expand...

Zantac has been discussed but only recently and then we haven't done anything with it because of the referral.

Pye will be tearing around and scoffing food and begging for more and then its like someone flips a switch. He'll refuse food and start hunching and tummy pressing, sometimes he'll just sit and shake. But give him the metaclop and metacam and within two hours its like the switch has been flipped back and he's fine and begging for food and binkying about like a nutter. Well apart from the last episode where it was days but add into that a sedation and a day trip at the vets for an xray so it was pretty traumatising too....
 
Jenefina said:
Zantac has been discussed but only recently and then we haven't done anything with it because of the referral.

Pye will be tearing around and scoffing food and begging for more and then its like someone flips a switch. He'll refuse food and start hunching and tummy pressing, sometimes he'll just sit and shake. But give him the metaclop and metacam and within two hours its like the switch has been flipped back and he's fine and begging for food and binkying about like a nutter. Well apart from the last episode where it was days but add into that a sedation and a day trip at the vets for an xray so it was pretty traumatising too....
Click to expand...

Sounds very much like my Dermot. He has been MUCH better since having a 2 week course of Zantac and changing from a pellet feed to a mix (yes, I know!!).
He only gets a tiny amount of mix, his main diet is hay, dried grass and dark leafy greens.

AFAIK FHB has a theory that *some* Rabbits with recurrent GI problems have an abnormality in their small intestines. As I understand it she feels that by removing this abnormality (ie surgery) the problem resolves. However, surgery on the GI tract of a Rabbit is very high risk and even if it were FHB doing it I'd really only consider it as a very last resort.

Personally I would discuss the Ranitidine again with your Vet.

Have you considered a hay and Veg only diet ?
 
I had a bunny that suffered with bouts of bloat, ever since she had mucoid enteritis. When i got her home following her M.E, she took a while to start putting on weight, but despite this she was very bright and well considering. Now she never quite returned to her usual, binkying self. I spoke to Brigette Reusch about this when i saw her at a rabbit conference and she recommended a month long course of oral ranitidine (4mg/kg twice daily) and a month long course of Antepsin (would need to check dose). She told me that the reason for these drugs was in case my bunny had a stomach ulcer. Obviously you would need to discuss this as a treatment option with your own vet as they are both Prescription-Only Medication. As it turned out, 3 weeks after the start of treatment, Buffy was back to being the rabbit she once was!! It was amazing to see her so happy. If she ever had a bloat flare-up i would giver her ranitidine as it helps to reduce the stomach acid and it helps to promote gut motility. I also kept her on Bio-lapis long term. Buffy also had blood and faecal tests, plus an EC blood test (two of them) to rule out any underlying problem. She also had a urine test. I would not give metoclop' regularly as i guess you are injecting it, and prolonged courses of injectable drugs would make her skin very sore and bruised. Ranitidine has the benefit of being an oral drug. Personally I would not want my bunny to go for surgery, however, i dont think the receptionist is in a position to be telling you such things over the phone (even if the vet had said it). Bristol University (Langford) run an advice service, whereby your vet can call them up and provide a full history and even send the xrays - Langford will advise as necessary. I think the service is free. If you contact them they will be able to tell you all about it. Phone number is 01934 852422. I have used them for one of my bunnies (2.5 hour drive over there) and I would def recommend them (im a vet nurse). Richard Saunders was fantastic and a great vet. I was very please with the service there and would def return with another bunny. FHB does not provide telephone consultations so you would have to take bunny in to see them. If he deoesnt like to travel, i would suggest speaking to Langford.

Hope that helps!
 
Jack's-Jane said:
Sounds very much like my Dermot. He has been MUCH better since having a 2 week course of Zantac and changing from a pellet feed to a mix (yes, I know!!).
He only gets a tiny amount of mix, his main diet is hay, dried grass and dark leafy greens.

AFAIK FHB has a theory that *some* Rabbits with recurrent GI problems have an abnormality in their small intestines. As I understand it she feels that by removing this abnormality (ie surgery) the problem resolves. However, surgery on the GI tract of a Rabbit is very high risk and even if it were FHB doing it I'd really only consider it as a very last resort.

Personally I would discuss the Ranitidine again with your Vet.

Have you considered a hay and Veg only diet ?
Click to expand...

Was Dermot quite bad then? and just two weeks of zantac and then stop and he's doing better?

I read about metaclop and zantac working on different parts of the upper and lower gut and wondered if another option could be to try them together but its the length of time to put him on it that I wondered about. He's currently on day 7 of his metaclop course since his last episode and I'm petrified to stop it even tho he's sat troughing his hay his now with Pud and has been begging for food all night as usual!

I have read many threads about pellets and had seen your comments about mix. Pye is super fussy with food and when he was on mix when I first got him he only ate certain bits so thats why I thought changing him onto SS might be good cos a lot of people said it was gentler on tums but he's only got up to 4 pellets per meal today and he's still obv on metaclop still so I've no idea if it's making a difference. He's also super fussy with veg, he currently gets spring greens and I've recently managed to get him to eat parsley, dill and mint but other than that he turns his nose up at most stuff! I wonder sometimes if I may have spoiled them too much.....
 
PS, you say that in your bunny its like 'someone flips a switch'. Funny you say that cos thats exactly how i used to describe one of my other bunnies. And his problem was that he had a loose tooth right at the back of his mouth. It was discovered by a bunny vet in Bristol (not Langford) when a routine dental at my vets did not resolve his anorexia. Until that tooth was able to be removed (about a year after the problem started, as it was well rooted into the socket until a year later and removal of molar teeth in him was gonna be a big operation that invloved cutting through the bone!), he would get flare-ups where it was 'like a switch' - one minute he would be eating and the next he would stop. Is it worth getting your vet to do a thorough dental examination including xrays? Or maybe take him to a specialist for this? Maybe you could find a rabbit vet nearer to you to save the travel?
 
Hi Pooks,
Thank you for that, I will try and ring them tomorrow to see what they say, I would much prefer to speak to someone before putting him through such a stressful long journey and yes I was really upset about the receptionist saying the stuff about surgery and then refusing to speak to me afterwards... just made me even more panicked and confused.

The metaclop I'm giving him is the syrup stuff which I give orally, I could never trust myself with a needle! Bless him he's actually been really good taking it, don't get me wrong he puts up a fight but he does take it!

I think I'll definately but the zantac to Neil to see what he thinks, maybe try him for two weeks and see how he goes. Is it worth stopping the metaclop syrup or should I just carry on and put him on both do you think? obviously it will all have to go through my vet and its his decision but I much prefer going armed!

Its Pye's 3rd birthday on saturday. All I want to do is to let him and his wife have the best possible life they can and right now I just feel like a right failure. I can't believe how much I've missed out and I was gonna put him thru hell and back with a risky surgery :(
 
No advice as am just not knowledgable enough myself but just wanted to wish you and Pye well. I hope you can find a solution to this xx

Sending him (( vibes )) xx
 
Jenefina said:
I read about metaclop and zantac working on different parts of the upper and lower gut and wondered if another option could be to try them together but its the length of time to put him on it that I wondered about. He's currently on day 7 of his metaclop course since his last episode and I'm petrified to stop it even tho he's sat troughing his hay his now with Pud and has been begging for food all night as usual!
Metoclop and Rantidine do not work on the lower/hind gut. I would move from metoclop to ranitidine, as its oral.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hanlou said:
No advice as am just not knowledgable enough myself but just wanted to wish you and Pye well. I hope you can find a solution to this xx

Sending him (( vibes )) xx
Click to expand...

Thank you, I have told Pye but he's currently got his head buried in his hay looking for that special bit! I shall tell him later when he's a little less preoccupied!
 
Right, I've made an appointment for the 23rd with FHB. I am going armed with all the info you have given me about diet, zantac and blood tests and will make it very clear that i do not want surgery until I have exhausted her vast knowledge of every other possible option.

I am in knots about the whole thing (and the scary drive down on my own!) but if I don't try I'll never know.

Thank you for all your help, if anyone thinks of anything I can add to my list.....
 
He stuffs his little face with hay bless him, especially since his hay monster wife Pud arrived, it seems like its a competition sometimes!
 
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