terminal illness

has anyone ever made the decision to stop treatment?

This morning was really bad with Pearl, by the time i had got drugs in i had to hold her chunk of apple for her or she wouldnt eat it her head was so far up in the air

i just wondered has anyone ever taken the decision to stop with the medication to avoid the stress of the actual giving it, or do you all fight to the bitter end?

there will be a point when getting the meds in arent helping because the heart is under such a strain from trying to avoid the situation in the first place. i dont think we really are far off that time.

honestly do you think its best to keep up with drugs until they are no longer effective or is it kinder to let nature finish what it has started.

yet again sitting at my desk at work almost in tears trying to figure out wtf im supposed to do for Pearl :?

I have never stopped any medication to "let naturer take its course" I would be so worried that the bunny would be left suffering.

We have always carried on with meds until they are no longer effective and then pts or if the treatment has become too invasive or stressful and is also affecting the bunnies quality if life we have also opted for pts

at the moment it probably takes 1/2hour for her to recover from the meds then she seems quite happy again, she is looking poorly and her lips were quite blue yesterday. do you think thats still ok quality? i know you have a lot on your mind at the mo hun so i dont want to upset you with my questions

Oh dear I feel for you.

I think a time can come when you say enough is enough. I know it did for me and my elderly horse - we could have gone on and tried to treat his latest problem but I felt he'd had enough prodding and poking over the last couple of year with recurrent foot and tendon problems (at one time he could only stand up leaning on the stable wall) and there was just another problem waiting in the wings. I had dreaded that day for many years, always hoping he'd pop of naturally in the field, but in the end I knew when it was the right time and you will too. Take each day as it comes and follow your heart you know her best.

I used to think that I might have to do this with my bunnies. ie at some point when they went into stasis for the millionth time, stop fighting with drugs and just call the vet and PTS. In reality I couldn't do this! So I was giving them all their meds till the bitter end, until the point where I could say that their quality of life wasn't good enough to continue (two separate occasions, so two separate decisions).

edit: I've actually done this with my hamster at the moment though. The stress of giving drugs that aren't actually working anyway is really not doing her any good, so I'm now just feeding food and fluids and ready to make the decision when necessary.

I really feel for you.

I think everyone will have different opinions on this subject so I can only say what I would do myself.

Simba had pneumonia, only had it for 4 days, but in mine and the vets minds, he was suffering so I opted to PTS. I will never know if a miracle may have occured but I made the decision based on what was happening in front of me at the time

When Tinkerbell had her headtilt and vacancy, this was only for 2 days and I was already asking myself whether I would continue with treatment with her in such an unrabbit like state. She couldn't do any of the things she had previously enjoyed and I really don't know how long I could have kept her like that. Fate stepped in and she passed away.

So, really I have been of no help whatsoever but just giving my own take on things as I see them for myself.

at the moment, rosie is being treated with meds, if it comes to the time when i think these meds are not having any effect, if she deteriates then i will have to take the kindest option, but as she is showing it helps even if she doesn't like taking the medicine i am happy with her

If its only taking a short while to recover and the rest of her days are OK then it sounds like her quality of life isn't being badly affected by taking the meds.

If it gets to the point where she doesn't want to take them because she is scared of you all the time for doing it, its causing her great pain which is affecting the rest of her day that is the sort of situation where I would call it day due to the meds as well as the illness.

Hugo's There said:

If its only taking a short while to recover and the rest of her days are OK then it sounds like her quality of life isn't being badly affected by taking the meds.

If it gets to the point where she doesn't want to take them because she is scared of you all the time for doing it, its causing her great pain which is affecting the rest of her day that is the sort of situation where I would call it day due to the meds as well as the illness.

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I totally agree with this. I like to try to measure quality of life, as far as it's possible, as a sort of % of time spent happy/appearing to enjoy life. If it's low, it's time to go. It's an incredibly hard decision though.

Hugo's There said:

If its only taking a short while to recover and the rest of her days are OK then it sounds like her quality of life isn't being badly affected by taking the meds.

If it gets to the point where she doesn't want to take them because she is scared of you all the time for doing it, its causing her great pain which is affecting the rest of her day that is the sort of situation where I would call it day due to the meds as well as the illness.

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shes not scared of me yet, just knows when its drug time.

thankyou all, i dont think im ready to give up on her yet but i feel so guilty every morning. the vetmedin isnt hated as much so its a lot easier than the morning dose of fortekor. i would only consider stopping the vetmedin and fortekor anyhows. it think without the dirurectics id be sentencing her to an awful death of drowning in her own fluid. suppose that means its drugs till the bitter end anyhows

what is wrong with pearl ?

i-love-bunnies said:

what is wrong with pearl ?

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she has an enlarged heart, she was ill from last July but the vets didnt diagnose it till september so while she wasnt getting treatment she got ill quicker.

shes in the final stage of life now and her heart feels so huge

It must be an incredibly difficult decision to face

My only personal experience of this is years ago when one of my mum's cats was left carrying on and struggling for too long because we didn't want him pts. In hindsight it would have been kinder to let him go sooner

So, as far as it goes, my only advice is to continue as you are doing - carefully monitoring Pearl's quality of life and how happy and active she is after meds, and when it seems like there's more struggle than happiness, make the kindest decision for her.

Sending beautiful Pearl loads of vibes.

giantbunnymummy said:

It must be an incredibly difficult decision to face

My only personal experience of this is years ago when one of my mum's cats was left carrying on and struggling for too long because we didn't want him pts. In hindsight it would have been kinder to let him go sooner

So, as far as it goes, my only advice is to continue as you are doing - carefully monitoring Pearl's quality of life and how happy and active she is after meds, and when it seems like there's more struggle than happiness, make the kindest decision for her.

Sending beautiful Pearl loads of vibes.

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when i asked the vet how long in her experience bunnys in pearls conditiion last on treatment she said its usually about 6 months. we are right on that time now and i think the vet has been right, im gutted we didnt treat the illness sooner that two months could of made a huge difference to when the end came, she wont go for much longer, i feel it deep in my heart. i keep watching the videos ive been making since July and shes going down hill pretty fast now i think..i wont let her suffer (i hope) just one little sign and ill let her go to sleep

giantbunnymummy said:

It must be an incredibly difficult decision to face

My only personal experience of this is years ago when one of my mum's cats was left carrying on and struggling for too long because we didn't want him pts. In hindsight it would have been kinder to let him go sooner So, as far as it goes, my only advice is to continue as you are doing - carefully monitoring Pearl's quality of life and how happy and active she is after meds, and when it seems like there's more struggle than happiness, make the kindest decision for her.

Sending beautiful Pearl loads of vibes.

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My nice bunny vet said to me a couple of years ago, it is always better to worry that you chose to pts too soon rather than too late. And there is a lot of truth in that :?

I have worried so many times in the past that I made the wrong choice with timing, and looking back you always feel worse when you feel you letf it a little too long

donnamt said:

when i asked the vet how long in her experience bunnys in pearls conditiion last on treatment she said its usually about 6 months. we are right on that time now and i think the vet has been right, im gutted we didnt treat the illness sooner that two months could of made a huge difference to when the end came, she wont go for much longer, i feel it deep in my heart. i keep watching the videos ive been making since July and shes going down hill pretty fast now i think..i wont let her suffer (i hope) just one little sign and ill let her go to sleep

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Oh Donna it's heartbreaking isn't it

I know you'll do your best for Pearl. Hugs.

I would never stop meds if they are either no longer working or too difficult/stressful to give. If you have to stop for either reason then i think you have to go for PTS straight after.

Its a horrible situation and decision, but there is no real benefit for her to be without meds for any length of time. If its only half an hour per day to recover, then thats reasonable i think. but if medicating her gets her so stressed that she can't really breathe then either you need a new technique or an oxygen atmosphere or to consider that strain vs the benefit. If each dosing causes so much stress that it advances the progression of the disease, then dosing her isnt having any benefit.

my heart goes out to you because i know how much you love her and want the best for her, and she seems to have to much character. But like Liz says, its always better to PTS too soon than too late. They dont think like us, they dont know its coming, and it will be less stressful for you all if she goes reasonably quietly and not in an end-stage crisis.

Hugo's There said:

My nice bunny vet said to me a couple of years ago, it is always better to worry that you chose to pts too soon rather than too late. And there is a lot of truth in that :?

I have worried so many times in the past that I made the wrong choice with timing, and looking back you always feel worse when you feel you letf it a little too long

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I absolutely agree. If I could go back and change what we did for Timothy cat I would

Just had to face a similar thing recently with another of my mum's cats who took ill while she was away on holiday and was being looked after by a neighbour. We decided between us, with the support of the vet, that pts was kinder for Cleo than to have her admitted and hanging on for a week until my mum got home. She had terminal kidney disease and a host of ther problems which meds had kept in check until that week.

one more thing... how will i know if im giving up because IM tired of the drugs time or if it really is best for Pearl :?

its 5pm and already im stressing out over going home and doing Pearls drugs, whats the betting she hasnt thought about it once and will only get upset when i pick up the dreaded towel :?

theres no point me talking to Ste because he will just say its up to me i know her best :?

gah, im so fed up with my brain

I feel for you so much as I am also in this situation with my cat. It is so hard! She was diagnoised more than 2 years ago and the Vets think it is a miracle that she is still alive. She has cardiomyopathy and is also in the final stages. I have taken her to the Vets countless times for oxygen and lasix injections and they keep telling me I have to make a decision about when to pts.

I have had my cat for 16 and a half years and she is basically our child. She is already maxed out on the lasix meds. Its such a dilemma because on one hand you don't want them to suffer but also don't want to shorten their lives. I'm having a really difficult time with this too. My cats' heart is also enlarged as your rabbits and the Vets are shocked by how large it is and the fact she's still alive.

We are going to have to make a decision too as she was just in for oxygen and lasix injection a week and a half ago and she is having such a hard time breathing today that I'm probably going to have to take her in for oxygen again. But I keep thinking is this fair? I am worried she is suffering and uncomfortable.

Yet she is still eating and using her litter box and purring. She even went outside supervised of course, for about 5 minutes yesterday.

Does Pearl breathe heavy as well?

Anytime you want to talk you can always PM me. I"m so sorry you and Pearl are going thru this. Its a rollarcoaster ride.

(((hugs)))
Lynn