Jess... ecuniculi... help?!

Hi!

I've asked several questions around the site but they're either being overlooked or ignored so I figured starting a new thread might get a better response.

My bunny, Jess, has developed e.cuniculi. She has been on Panacur since wednesday 3rd february and meloxodyl since the 4th. When I took her to the vet, she was ok-ish. She refused her greens that morning which is what sent the alarm bells ringing. By the afternoon of the day I took her to the vet, she was trembling and slightly unbalanced.

She started Panacur that day but she has been getting worse since, twisting her head like an owl when I pick her up, laying on one side on my lap and flicking her eyes about and rolling them into the top of her head (she returns to normal when placed back in her cage, allbeit a little wobbly and with a slight head tilt. She will also rotate to the left until something gets in her way, which she will then lean on until she has her bearings back).

My questions are -

1 - If she is getting worse whilst on medication, does that mean it's not working, or is it normal for bunnies to get worse before they get better?

2 - Are the e.cuniculi spores only transmissible from contact with Jess's wee/places she's weed or can it be passed in the air and/or from direct contact with Jess? (ie - could it be passed by sniffing through cage bars?)

3 - At what point should I expect to see an improvement in her condition? I know I am supposed to do a 28 day course of medicine but what if she's still showing no/little improvement after the time is up? Do I continue treatment or admit defeat and trudge back to the vets for 'that' discussion?

If anyone could answer any of those, even if it's bad news, I'd be so grateful. My vet doesn't seem to know much about bunnies and I can't switch to a bunny savvy one as there aren't any on this island.

I can post pictures of the degree of her head tilt or videos of her circling etc if it's any help.

I am sorry to hear that Jess is poorly

EC can be a very protracted illness and signs of improvement may take weeks rather than days. I am affraid I have a very poorly Bun here myself atm so I dont have time to type a lengthy response. But I have located a few old threads which may be of use to you.

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=178735

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=178786&highlight=wilson+head+tilt

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=127212&highlight=kermit+head+tilt

and this site:

http://www.onthewonk.com/

Dont give up hope. The journey to recovery can be long, but it is possible

ETA You may want to ask your Vet about Jess having antibiotic cover aswell eg Baytril at this stage xx

Hello,
My angel bunny Kermit had EC and head tilt (he is one of the links that Jane has posted).
Now i have another bunny, Inca, at home right now with EC, just diagnosed! She hasnt got a head tilt, but has got weak back legs!

When Kermit had it, he took weeks to recover. The improvement was very small each day. He was still managing to eat and drink by himself, so i thought that meant he was fighting and i continued with the meds.

It might be better for you not to lift your bun up too much just now, as having a head tilt and nystygmus (flickering eye) affects the balance and brain, so bun can have a sick feeling. I just used to go down and sit with kermit on the floor.

Im not sure about how it can be passed, but if you mean that you have other buns, then they need treated with panacur too.

If you have any other questions, please ask.....ill check back throughout the day (im at work tho' so might not respond straight away!)

Thankyou for the links Jane, I've had a look through them all. I think I've absorbed just about all the EC information my brain can absorb today! I still can't seem to find answers to the few questions that are bugging me the most though I hope your poorly bun gets better too.

Kermit sounds like a little fighter I'm glad he gradually got better. I'm particuly worried about Jess as she has got much worse although she has been on medication. I'm trying not to lift her too much, she is currently in an indoor cage on the shed floor, I lift her up about two foot and pop her straight on my lap and that seems to be enough to send her into a seizure. Maybe I will try not lifting her at all, but see if I can get her meds in whilst she's still sat in the cage.

I am treating Jess's husbun too. Thistle is a conti and needs a third of a tube of Panacur everyday! They are both still in the shed together, although Thistle is loose and Jess is in the cage. I figured this would be a good idea as the cage will contain her pee. I have bleached the shed already, as I worried about Thistle picking it up. I will re-bleach it on day 21 and day 28 as suggested to me previously. I'm a bit worried the virus could become airborn and Thistle might get it anyway. :shock: I am also making sure I change my clothes before feeding my non-shed bunnies, in case the spores get onto me from sitting Jess on my lap.

Is it possible to get Baytril online? I've also had a dental bunny in the vets this month plus car insurance and I'm very low on funds. The meloxodil I'm using is £12 for a five day supply from my vet and they will not sell me a bigger bottle, but I have to get it from them as it's perscription only. I'm worried I may run out of money before I finish Jess's treatment. I ordered Panacur online and have a stash of eight tubes so hopefully that will last until payday at least.

Urghhh, I wish there was a decent bunny vet over here.

Quick edit to add a picture -

This is what happened when I popped her on my lap this morning for medicine time.

Ohhh, it makes me want to cry. When she started her meds, she just had a slight tremble and a lean to the left. She pretty much looses her head when moved now.

It still early days, so there is plenty of time to see an improvement. I agree that antibiotic cover would be a very good idea in case the head tilt is being caused by an inner ear infection or pasteurellosis, rather than e.c. My bunny Tippex Porkychicken was given Septrin (she hated it but most quite like it apparently).

The spores are shed in urine and possibly faeces, they are not airbourne. It is possible for them to be carried by other animals such as mice, and they can survive quite a long time in the environment.

Some people have found anti-nausea drugs (stemetil i think?) useful in helping the bun cope with the tilt. I haven't any experience with these myself.

If there are no rabbit specialists on the island, maybe it would be possible for your vet to phone one on the mainland for some extra advice.

You will find the liquid panacur for dogs and cats works out much cheaper than the rabbit one, but this is probably a bit late now xx

My vet looked in her ears when I took her in and said they looked very healthy. I've had ear infection buns before and have noticed they flick their ears about and scratch at them - Jess isn't/hasn't been doing either of those things so I'm hopeful her ears are fine. All the buns I've ever had with ear infections ahve ended up being PTS so I'm keeping everything crossed that the vet is right!

Is pasteurllosis 'snuffles'? Or was that something else that began with a P?! :roll: :lol: I really wish I had just half the knowledge of some of the people on this forum! :lol:

I'm glad to hear that it can only be passed through poops/pee. I was really starting to panic about Thistle. I know I'm not supposed to have favourites but if anything happened to him, I would cry for a year! :roll:

It's believed that Jess caught it from being in contact with another of my buns pee. In had a little black and tan rabbit named Diego that was PTS in november of last year. The vet failed to tell me that e.cuniculi could live in his environment long after he'd died and sadly, thinking I was giving Thistle and Jess lots more room and a better home, I've exposed them to Diego's bugs. I did have a bit of a swear when the vet told me that was how Jess had caught it. He knew I had a lot of rabbits when I took Deegs in and yet failed to warn me how persistant the spores were. I didn't even know it was contagious. I feel as though it's all my fault.

georgie_f said:

My vet looked in her ears when I took her in and said they looked very healthy. I've had ear infection buns before and have noticed they flick their ears about and scratch at them - Jess isn't/hasn't been doing either of those things so I'm hopeful her ears are fine. All the buns I've ever had with ear infections ahve ended up being PTS so I'm keeping everything crossed that the vet is right!

Is pasteurllosis 'snuffles'? Or was that something else that began with a P?! :roll: :lol: I really wish I had just half the knowledge of some of the people on this forum! :lol:

I'm glad to hear that it can only be passed through poops/pee. I was really starting to panic about Thistle. I know I'm not supposed to have favourites but if anything happened to him, I would cry for a year! :roll:

It's believed that Jess caught it from being in contact with another of my buns pee. In had a little black and tan rabbit named Diego that was PTS in november of last year. The vet failed to tell me that e.cuniculi could live in his environment long after he'd died and sadly, thinking I was giving Thistle and Jess lots more room and a better home, I've exposed them to Diego's bugs. I did have a bit of a swear when the vet told me that was how Jess had caught it. He knew I had a lot of rabbits when I took Deegs in and yet failed to warn me how persistant the spores were. I didn't even know it was contagious. I feel as though it's all my fault.

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Pasteurella is one of the common causes of snuffles but it doesn't neccessarily present as snuffles. It can cause infection or abscesses just about anywhere.

E cuniculi is reportedly present in around 50% of rabbits, and most of these probably catch it around the time of birth or when they are very young, so Jess may have already been exposed to it before you had her. I don't think it is yet known why some rabbits develop illness as a result and others don't.

I hope Jess starts to improve very soon xx

Not been on for a while but just nipped on for some more info myself!! But just to say that my bun Charlie has a head tilt and showed all the same symptoms as yours, with him tho we think it was snuffles that affected him. He was so bad that the vet wanted to put him to sleep but with the help of Jack's Jane I perservered - he was put on Stemetil which helped his dizziness - my vet was also a bit in the dark about rabbits but luckily instead of giving up he rang other vets and got advice. The stemetil did steady him after a while - terrible to see a rabbit rolling over helpless but it was so so worth the perserverance.

He still has head tilt but has been absolutely fine - enough for us to bond him to Lola - sadly he has had a relapse this week so he is back on his stemetil but also has a bad eye infection at the mo - thats why am here - just didn't want to pass this thread without giving it a bit of support. XX

Jupiter said:

Not been on for a while but just nipped on for some more info myself!! But just to say that my bun Charlie has a head tilt and showed all the same symptoms as yours, with him tho we think it was snuffles that affected him. He was so bad that the vet wanted to put him to sleep but with the help of Jack's Jane I perservered - he was put on Stemetil which helped his dizziness - my vet was also a bit in the dark about rabbits but luckily instead of giving up he rang other vets and got advice. The stemetil did steady him after a while - terrible to see a rabbit rolling over helpless but it was so so worth the perserverance.

He still has head tilt but has been absolutely fine - enough for us to bond him to Lola - sadly he has had a relapse this week so he is back on his stemetil but also has a bad eye infection at the mo - thats why am here - just didn't want to pass this thread without giving it a bit of support. XX

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Awwhhh, thankyou, that's really sweet of you I hope Charlie gets his eye and his tilt sorted quickly, sending lots of well wishes and bunny cuddles.

I tried to ring my vet yesterday and ask for antibiotics, the receptionist didn't know much and there wasn't a vet free for me to talk to. I tried ringing back four more times and still couldn't get hold of a vet. I asked if they could get one to call me and finally one did at about 6pm! :roll: The vet says they are unwilling to prescribe anything else as they want to see if her current medicine has any effect. I said I'd been told she needed Panacur, Meloxodyl annnnd an antibiotic all at once and he kept saying to wait another week and ring back then.

On the plus side - Jess hasn't got any worse. No better either though. :?

So sorry to hear about Jess. My Vin is now recovering from EC so I'll do my best to answer.

1. Vinnie did get worse before she got better, you just have to persevere with the treatment. Her symptoms came on really suddenly and I think it was just getting worse while the treatment kicked in.

2. EC is spread through urine, not through the air. However, it can be carried by other animals and can survive a long time in the environment. (I think a month) As lilbun said, lots of rabbits carry EC without having symptoms, so it is possible she's already had it and something has set it off.

3. Treatment time varies from rabbit to rabbit, just as symptoms do. I've had two buns with EC, one sadly didn't make it. My current bun made a drastic improvement within the first week and then took weeks to improve more. This really surprised the vet as he said he had never see such a big change in the first week. She was first diagnosed November ish and is still getting herself back together, she lost a lot of strength in her back legs.

As Kermit said, not picking her up will relax her a little more. I used to kneel on the floor and put the bunny between my thighs. That way she's in a secure grip and you're not stressing her by adding height.

georgie_f said:

I tried to ring my vet yesterday and ask for antibiotics, the receptionist didn't know much and there wasn't a vet free for me to talk to. I tried ringing back four more times and still couldn't get hold of a vet. I asked if they could get one to call me and finally one did at about 6pm! :roll: The vet says they are unwilling to prescribe anything else as they want to see if her current medicine has any effect. I said I'd been told she needed Panacur, Meloxodyl annnnd an antibiotic all at once and he kept saying to wait another week and ring back then.

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Is there any chance you could sensitively suggest he contacts a bunny-savvy vet? If you know of any on the mainland you could suggest a fax or phone call? You could also take in some information for them, it all depends on your vets attitude. Generally EC bunnies are given an antibiotic as a matter of course. Vin never had Meloxodyl but did have Panacur and Baytril once it was confirmed what she had.
Here's another couple of links for you - one is a scientific paper so may make more of an impact if you want to take it in. That's the second one, and it is rather wordy and hard to understand. (I'm a science geek sadly :lol The first has a lot of information on meds used for the treatment of EC.

http://www.eid.ac.cn/MirrorResources/8230/treatment.shtml.1.html
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-2/e-cuniculi.html

If you have any other questions please ask or send me a PM. I first joined this forum when Vin had EC looking for incontinence advice and it really gave me a boost. Sending lots of vibes and nose-rubs for Jess.

Thankyou! That's some really good information and I'm sure Jess will apreciate the extra nose rubs

At first, Jess was only perscribed Panacur, I rang the vet and asked for an Metacam on the advice of this forum (they gave me meloxodyl which is apparently the same thing) and I took in a notebook full of comments RU members had made about cellular damage etc and took in a few phone numbers. My vet shrugged the information off and said different vets deal with problems in their own way. I guess he doesn't want to appear as if he's doing things wrong. The vet I have been taking Jess to is the surgerys head vet too so I guess he has a reputation to uphold. Or he's just too busy... :roll:

The same vet was also the one I saw when Diego had EC last year - the vet kept putting Diego on a weeks course on Panacur, he'd get a little better, come off it, get worse, get put on it again, taken off it, get worse.... I was never told to put him on a 28 day course. He got PTS as soon as it got to the point where he couldn't stand.

Sometimes I can't work out if my vet just doesn't know how to treat EC (or rabbits in general) or if he gets paid commision and sells me whatever's more expensive. :shock: There is one vet at my surgery that is really good with bunnies but he's semi-retired and only works two days a week. *sigh*.

I think I might ring and try to switch my vet. I'll have to move round my work hours. :? Or just find a different surgery...

I'm so sorry to hear of your poorly bunny *big hugs*

I just wanted to share my happy story of Twiglet. She was on deaths door with EC being confirmed (thread here: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=86123&page=2&highlight=Twiggy+cuniculi) This was 2 years ago and she's been healthy since (until today which is why I'm back - she has a nail infection)

I was injecting her with antibiotics myself so we could minimise the stress of taking her to the vet everyday. I'm sure this helped. As after a vet visit she always seemed worse. I also had the risk of her Pasteurella flaring up too.

Sorry to hear that Jess is still suffering.

I have a bunny called Lola who had really bad head tilt from EC. At her worst the only way we could keep her upright was to lean her against a rolled up towel bolster on the side of her pen. She was rolling a lot and we were worried about damage to her lower eye and bracing ourselves for having her PTS. However she has made a full recovery thanks to the amazing 24 hour care she got from Sharon at Blackberry Boarding in Gloucester.

The advise from others sounds good and the medication is what Lola was on (panacur, metacam and baytril). However I was wondering if Jess is managing to drink enough water? That was a problem Lola had and so Sharon was using a syringe to make her drink. It really seemed to help.

Timescale wise, Lola first fell ill in June last year, she recovered well to begin with but then relapsed badly in August, September was her worst period and she probably had about a month of intensive care and she was fully back to normal by November.

Jess was much worse yesterday. She'd obviously been rolling in her cage as her water was spilt everywhere and her food bowl was upside down and she had an eye full of sawdust (luckily I have some eye drops!). All the sawdust and hay was also pushed up around the sides of the cage. :shock:

I couldn't get her to swallow her Panacur either. I've tried tickling her under her chin, turning her upside down, holding her head right up, sending a bit of cabbage in after it, syringing a little water in after it... It just oozed down her chin. Yesterday I didn't do her meloxodyl, I thought it'd be too stressful for her after trying the Panacur so much. I'm really dreading trying it again this morning.

I picked her up to pick a load of sawdust out of her eye and sent her into a fit and then when I put her back in the cage, she lied on her back with her legs in the air. I tried picking her up and putting her back down several times but she ended up on her back everytime. In the end, I proped her against the cage wall and she righted herself after a few minutes.

On the plus side, she hasn't gone off her veggies yet. I'm giving her broccoli and grass everyday that I have run under the tap so she takes water in with it too. She's showed zero interest in her pellets but I've managed to tempt her to eat a bit of muesli type bun food.

Thankyou for the link houndour, I will have a good read after I've been and done Jess's meds.

I shall persevere! Hopefully next time I post, I'll be able to tell you all there's been an improvement!

Does anybody know if meloxodyl tastes the same as metacam? By the end of Lola's treatment she would come running for the metacam and lick it off the syringe. Apparently it has a sweet taste. She seemed really disappointed when I stopped giving it to her.

We lined Lola's cage with towels when she was really bad as we were worried about the sawdust and hay getting in her eyes. We also rolled old towels up and put them around the sides of the pen so that it was soft if she was falling over a bit like a padded cell!

Also, I think you can get a special type of barrier cream for their eyes to stop it rubbing or bits going in if they are rolling. I'll try to find out the name.

She really needs medication you can get into her. Metacam has a nice taste so my bunny will either lick it off a spoon, or syringe, or even on their pellets.

I note the Melox. is pain relief and an anti-flammatory, but does it have the same taste as metacam. I would ask to change. I would be concerned about his competency with rabbits as he kept putting Diego on a 7 day course of Panacur and did not tell you about cleaning after EC. My vet is not particularly rabbit savvy, but she has always been open to listening when I speak and looking into anything I have mentioned.

Have you got someone to help you adminster the drugs.

http://www.vetmeduk.com/meloxidyl-oral-liquid-4410-0.html

Some tried and tested tricks to try with the panacur:

Smear it on a slice of squishy pear.
Inject it into a little piece of plum.
Squish it into a piece of banana. You can syringe this mix if the bunny won't eat it.
Make a sandwich with basil or parsley.
Spread it on spring greens.
Squirt into a sugarsnap pea.
let it soak into an inch of bread or toast (maybe with a little banana spread on top) - the liquid type is best for this.

Whilst most of these are 'norty' foods, they are worth a try

Wuezybun said:

We lined Lola's cage with towels when she was really bad as we were worried about the sawdust and hay getting in her eyes. We also rolled old towels up and put them around the sides of the pen so that it was soft if she was falling over a bit like a padded cell!

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I did this too, except used a couple of cheap pillows and covered them with a towel. Vin leaned up against it so she wasn't lying on her back all the time. I also took sawdust out and put cardboard on the floor, and wood pellets in her litter tray, much less stuff for her to get in her eyes.

As for the meds, I can sympathise! Most bunnies like metacam apparently but not mine. And she wasn't too keen on the panacur either :roll: I tried putting it on favourite foods and all I got was an indignant look after the first time.
I got a long thin syringe (1ml) and put the meds in that, put it into the side of her mouth as far as it would go.When she started chewing on the syringe to get rid of it, then I squirted out the meds. The chewing motion makes them swallow. It sounds a bit mean but it was all over in ten seconds and meant much less messing about. You really do need to get them in her.

The fact that she's still eating is a good sign. My Vin showed no interest in pellets whatsoever but did eat her veggies. I fed her so much rubbish to get her to eat...she became very fond of banana :roll::lol: Hope Jess feels better.

Jess is just awful today. I took her out of her cage for the tiniest of moments so I could put a fleecy blanket in for her and since then, I think I might of tipped her over the edge because I just cannot convince her to do anything other than lie on her side with her face mushed into the floor. I'm worried she will suffocate on the blanket now but short of tying her head to the cage roof, I don't know what to do.

She is no longer eating, except for the very smallest of grass blades. She cannot use her water bottle and although I have a bowl for her, she can't use that either because she rolls and tips it out. She has taken her medicine today thankfully. It was only that one day that I couldn't get her to take it, but I cannot for the life of me get her to drink water from the syringe. That appears to come back out of her nose. I'm so worried that the meds are not working. Surely she shouldn't be getting worse.

I'm also having real difficulty trying to get Thistle to take his Panacur. He is a big rabbit, he's nearly 7kgs and I have to sit him upside down and wedge his head in my armpit. He's kicked me in the face every day since I started his course of Panacur.

I just feel so useless. I'm not coping very well and after I finished in the shed today I had a right idiot attack, balled my eyes out and kicked a bucket round the garden until I'd smashed it to pieces.

Sorry for the rant but I just need to have a moan and then hopefully I might feel a bit better.

I know its tough, but you do get days when it seems worse than others.

This is a long drawn out illness, and sometimes some steps back seem to be taken.

Id take Jess back for another vets visit.

How are you trying to get Thistle to take the meds? I put the panacur in between two basil leaves, or slit a sugar snap pea and put it in there, I know you have a big bun, so you might need a few leaves!!!