stasis update: teeth spikes... G.A etc tommorrow :(

Simbas a constant worry, how do u guys cope with long term nursing or multiple poorly buns, my heart goes out to you all...


SORRY ive typed loads!!!!!!! :shock:

So the past few days...

Friday and over the weekend Simba started pooing and peeing everywhere. He's been toilet trained for both since a few weeks after got him. SOOOO stupid me I put it down to HOrMOnes! :roll: Sunday he wernt so eager for his nugetts but ate some and came back to eat them later...
Sunday eve he didnt touch his kale. Mon am didnt touch nuggets or kale and i noticed poos were 1/2 normal size... so off to the vets = gut inj + meds. Vet said better to take him home and try to treat if poss as nicer for him but if gets worse hell have to stay at the vets . As soon as he had the inj, he was very thirsty, drunk loads from his water bottle which he never does.

Once home and settled, I ran out to get a selection of his faves... once home I prepared a 1/4 leaf spring greens, cm slice cuecumber, cm carrot, floret of broc, 4 basil, 2 sprigs thyme. He ate the lot! Still walked away from nuggets.

Wernt his normal self and little dosey but lively enough a couple of living room laps and followed me around a bit. Saw him eat a little hay + lots of poos

Before bed I cleared the wees/poos from tray, fresh hay etc. Got up at stupid oclock (before my daughter lol... )he didnt seem keen to get out his tunnel and greet me but accepted the 2 basil and ate '2' strands of the hay i placed next to his tunnel. During my bed hours = NO POO'S/ hay not moved/scattered I placed the same veg as eve which he ate... his first oral metoclopramide and within 1/2 hour was up and out his cage acting 'normal'.

Went back to vet to pick up the fibreplex, spoke to the vet etc.. went to get carrots with tops...(sainburys/asda) finally found in tesco!!!. Back home nuggets not eaten... but LOTS OF POOS about 50... still not the right size but slightly improved, and happy to eat a small peice of carrot + 2 corrot geens/tops, was given fibreplex which im going the get down his mouth some how and supreme recovery... which i can't get him to eat, tried on a plate to lick, a spoon which he nudge away and a syringe...

I feel ive caught it all early enough that i shouldnt stress him out by force feding him whilst hes eating somewhat. I have seen him eating hay properly (not just a strand or two) this noon and also did some HUGE binkies, races, laps, and circle of my feet. I thought by now I would have had to pack him off to the vets but... I thinks hes doing good now to continue at home... just hope im doing the all the right things.

Q's
Am tempted to give him loads of veg just because im happy to see him eating now but feel its best to keep moderation?

Havent managed to give him to have any recovery food, but has been pooing and eating so does it matter? Really diffucult to give the fibreplex too, thankfully hes happy to take the metoclopramide


What may have triggered it?
Hes had baytril past 3 weeks... Couldnt find any spring greens last week so had - king something cabbage then green (actually white!) cabbage then kale... Im quierying kale either way these wont be fed again.
Possibly still hormoneally linked (Hes 6.5 months now and huge plums ). Pasturella linked?
Hmn the last 2 weeks hes had excel timothy hay forage mix, but i dont like him having this often even though timothy hay is as he never seems as eager to eat as much as much as the excel grass.

Triggers aside how to avoid it happening again... hes normally a big hay eater , good drinker etc... never had poo probs except they got a bit dark and wet looking prior to size and behaviour change.

PREVIOUSLY, and advice re pasturella...
Got him in Sept, within a week he an eye infection that didnt clear for over a month, also noticed sneezing and fast breathing... abx cleared sorted it quickly.

Early Jan - Sneezing and fast/panting type breathing again. Still same symptoms at the end of the course + after exercise/excited/showing off i could HEAR his out of breath type breathing (like the sound you get trying to breath quickly though only you mouth - i demonstrated to vet lol). Took him back to the vets; longer course seems to have calmed back down again, his breathing seems good again. I cant SEE him breathing from a distance and after exercise i cant HEAR him breathing!!!.

Vet belives its a dust allergy actually triggering it to flare up... which makes sense as sneezing has typically been in the hay esp near end of bag, and when scavering along the floor for anything dropped!.

His home is a puppy pen, extra shelf that he sleeps in a tunnel, (new lino base) due to the peein. In out lounge, ventilated warm, laminated floor.

Eats excel nuggets and dried grass, sometimes excel timothy forage mix.

Both gut problems & snuffles are massive subjects.
1st. You will need a rabbit specialist vet & if you tell us the nearest big town where you live on a new thread people will help you.

Snuffles is a bacterial infection, which usually starts at the back of the nose. Only 1/3 of cases are caused by pasteurella.
Dust allergy is rare in bunnies. What does happen is that dust thickens the mucus so it can't be moved up the nose & into the throat where it is swallowed. the slow progress up the nose enables bacteria trapped on the surface of the mucus to multiply to levelswhere they start to attack the membrane lining the nose. The membrane swells, further obstructing the flow of mucus, & can block off the tubes draining the sinuses causing sinusitis. So dust control is the big thing we can do to help. The big dust factor is hay in plastic bags - the norm. I now wash Thumper's hay a handful at a time, in a big bowl of water- a quick swill round is all that's needed & dry out on a cake rack.

I believe that aggressive treatment of snuffles early on is so important. We have to prevent both the direct spread to sinuses & (even middle ear via a tube high at the back of the throat) but most importantly damage to the membrane of the nose, preventing it from moving the mucus.
Although it's a long thread & heavy reading, you can see us working through the problems on http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=189817. My own experience is the rare & equivalent infection in humans. Because buns are on a smaller scale but the mucus is just as thick, we encountered difficult issues in buns.

Matt had had many episodes of inadequately treated snuffles before they found a top class rabbit vet. My own vet advises this approach too. The antibiotics used, depend on which bug is causing the problem. They certainly need a prolonged course of up to 6 weeks minimum for an uncomplicated case.

The necessary (test culture & sensitivity) is difficult in buns. They need a general anaesthetic to get a specimen from high enough in the nose. There are many reasons why the test can give inaccurate results. Again, if taken by an expert, the results are more accurate. It helps the vet to choose the right AB for that bug. It also helps us to know how invasive the bug is. Some members of the forum say it's a waste of time & money. We agree to differ.

ETA the tear duct also connects with the nose, it's quite possible that the infection originated in the nose.
XR of tooth roots are essential as they can block the tear duct or even grow near the nasal passages, causing a block.

I don't have any Snuffles experience but I do know a bit about bunnies with Stasis because I have a rabbit who is quite prone to it.

Inky does get stasis occasionally but because he is quite active, he tends to come out of it quicker when he has had the medication. Smokey on the other hand is very prone to it, possibly due to her genetics we think (her brother died from a GI problem at 5 months).

My tips for overcoming stasis are:

- Go to the vets if they're not eating within an hour (unless you are confident enough to try treating it at home first, even then I would only leave it 2 hours max after you last saw them eat) becasue bunnies with stasis go downhill rapidly.

-Try to keep them warm (bring them in with their bunny friend if you need to) and in a quiet place.

-Try to get them moving about a bit.

-If you are syringe feeding them, give them some water too in a syringe to keep their fluid up. Once they start eating on their own, leave them but keep an eye on them.

-Try to tempt them with their favourite foods.

As for preventing it, I wish I knew! The only thing that seems to help with Smokey is giving her tonnes of hay and we have switched back to a tablespoon of mix from pellets in the last year, which seems to have helped too.

The most likely issue with Simba's gut is that the combination of intial blocked nose made it difficult for him to eat enough, slowing the gut. then AB & change of diet have upset the bacteria in his gut. Some bacteria make chemicals which slow down the gut. So with a slow gut the bun isn't so hungry, eats less, the gut slows down more with less fiber etc. in a vicious circle.

Fiberplex is a good start while he's still eating reasonably. It contains the right bacteria for his gut & the fiber speeds it up, bun more hungry & eats more. If he gets worse, or doesn't start to pick up in a few days, I'd go to the vet to give him moree help.

I hope my comments help you to understand what is going on.
I sincerely wish you both all the best - Everything crossed for little Simba.

QUOTE=thumps_;3587372]Both gut problems & snuffles are massive subjects.
1st. You will need a rabbit specialist vet & if you tell us the nearest big town where you live on a new thread people will help you.

We live in Milton Keynes. Nearest big towns are Bedford, northampton...

Thankyou Thumps and FriskyClover for you replies...

Will definately do the hay washing, the current excel hay is long cut and not to dusty...

Have been managing simbas stasis at home but only because mild/early symptoms.

UPDATE: his poos have been getting bigger and normal coloured. He's not eaten any nuggets since suday but been active and poos in large quantity although not great size but doubled what were.. So ok'ish but took him back to vets today (not tomo as was going to) as my gut feeling has been his teeth, have caught him grinding etc.

Also took him because, thorough all this hes been his cheeky self. Jumped out on my daughters 3ft high cabin bed, and managed to catch a nail on a pillow, when i heard him jumping on the bed and come to shoo him down, found him on the floor, one foot in the air, pillow still balancing somehow on the bed. I released him and he tried to run off scared with the pillow attched. Snuggled him and the pillow to to my chest to cut him free but some material was wedged on his nail I hate to thing what he could have done, the room is out of bounds which is a shame as he likes to sleep in there.

Anyways, bringing the visit the vet took simba to another vet for assistance to get (as much of a look as poss) at his teeth, he has spurs, G.A tomo. Taking him in 8 am , worring already - it will be a long day.


Obviously I have read the Snuffles info thanks Thumps will start with the hay washing, sort his teeth then take it from there on. Do teeth spurs/spikes added to the discomfort, make sneeze and nasal probs more likley or entirley different subject?!

Thanks again for readin and commenting.

Sorry donnab1981 my concentration isn't good.
There's a potential for teeth / gut / & snuffles to inter relate.

Molar spikes
a) need an XR of jaw under the GA to see the roots, at least as a base line.
If buns are getting spurs, sometimes the tooth roots elongate with pressure & can get too close to the nose & sinuses. This can either block mucus flow, or cause excess mucus secretion. Infecting bacteria multiply & how!

b) Gut can be as I've outlined before. Also my bun can't eat as much when the spikes make his mouth sore, so his gut slows down. Similarly buns can only breath through their noses. Any thing blocking the nose, will make them eat less.

c) Pain from gut gas, or mouth causes a fall in the bunnies white cell count (their defense against bacteria) so when your bun is in severe pain grinding his teeth he hasn't got the resistance to fight the bacteria in the nose.

It's a tricky one to advise you, because it needs good veterinary judgement & experience.

In your shoes, tomorrow, while he's having a GA for the dental, I'd like an XR of his teeth, & a swab taken from high up the nose to see if we can find out what bacteria are causing the snuffles & whether they've changed. [Get all the information we need, while he's under the 1 GA]

Please let us know how he gets on. everything crossed for you both tomorrow.
ETA It's woth asking the vet if there are any sore ares in the mouth/tongue. Your bun will be a bit slow to eat until they've healed.
also do get some pain relief for him for after the dental. metacam is the norm.

Thankyou, that all makes sense. They deffinately were able to get a view some spikes so that will be sorted tommorrow for definate, the vet took him to another vet so one could hold him and the other look. It make sense for him to have the xrays and swab done while already under G.A, hopefully they will agree. Did ask for pain relief... for the stasis, but they say they dont like to give if poss as can cause abcess's in the gut/stomach... which i agree with but also agree witht the comments that buns wont eat if in pain. Luckily he's eating enough to stay 'heathy'.

Thanks again for your info/advice. It helps to 'know' as much as possible...

ETA your ETA!!! will ask about the sore mouth. They info they said was in for 8-8.30, GA = Teeth, keep till evening time, like to make sure they eat bfore they go home... and will have pain relief after. So think thats all covered

There's a bit of a problem over the pain relief side.
There are so many tummy bunny owners on this forum. None of us would be happy without pain relief for our buns if they were reluctant to move or tooth grinding. [True, Simba may have been "mouthing" rather than pain grinding with his spurs.]
Stomach ulcers from metacam (Non steroidal anti inflammatory) even when used long term, are rare in bunnies. The main issue is kidney problems with long term high dose use. This can be greatly reduced by only giving it once a day.

More to the point, metacam only gives partial pain relief, for gut issues, (it's better for bone/soft tissue swelling). If our buns need hospitalisation for stasis, they give stronger pain relief we can't have! But partial pain relief so they don't grind their teeth, is a lot better than nothing. Ask around a bit. I'm willing to stand corrected.

Sorry Thumps may be not reading properly... head fuzzled from coming home to bunless house!

Do you mean I was right or wrong to ask for pain relief re the stasis? was i being over fussy and that keeping him eating/pooing, drinking and gut stimulated with metoclopramide enough??

Anyways: UPDATE !!!


-Poos small again today but still lots :
-Ate his cm carrot + 2 c-greens, corriander, cress, spinach...
-Was nibbling some carrot greens in the carrier (eventually) at the vets so relaxed enough...

-Vet surgeon very caring, said theyll give him lots of cuddles etc
-Agreed that doing a nasal swab/culture is a good idea, and happy to do so
-they then mentioned that having a dental so early not a great sign but will

1)assess teeth during dental...
2) in the future it will be good to have reguar teeth check ups so that his teeth will be done if nessecary before he shows outwards signs such as his toileting/food probs this week
3) did mention skull xrays but as still young does not feel its essential atm. I feel quite happy hes in good hands and that swab its the most essential thing for now.

Thanks again for the advice Thumps, I had some awarness of what you were saying from reading other threads but needed the confidence to be sure and speak up for Simba.

Hes home; ate pellets for the first time since sunday, hay, etc. Good chew on new toys.

Vet said he'd been; friendly, relaxed and alert...

He had a wander, drink etc... bit dosey again now, although he usually lets steam off from 9.30-10pm...

Sooo glad to have him home!

You did absolutely right to ask for pain relief for Simba's gut problems.
No you were not being overfussy with his bowel, & did enough to keep him going, which is all you could do given that the major underlying issue was his teeth.

You have done absolutely right all the way through. :thumb:

Yes I understand not wanting to submit a young bunny to X-R, especially as severe root elongation is unlikely in a young bun.

I agree with the proposed management of his teeth.

Has all gone well today? I empathise with you. My house feels so empty when it's bunnyless.

Sorry we cross posted. I'm delighted that all went well, & he's home.
Every good wish for a speedy recovery.

Thankyou Thumps... I have been a worry pot lol

Im glad im doing right or at least doing right to the best of my knowledge... We lost our last bun to E.C caused stroke at only 18months old. I only found out afterwards... that possibly maybe i may have prevented it via regular pancur... maybe maybe not but the guilt remains even now.

My only concern is his right eyelid is staying virtually closed atm, my guestimate is the nasl swab on that side causing slight inflamation. Hopefully more open tomorrow. He has had his first round of poo's, just counted 27!!! stil small but no smaller, and are firm etc.

Just have to awaint the swab results...

Hey, donnab1981! There are plenty of us around who should be dab hands at gut issues/dental issues by now, but we still worry ourselves grey!!!
If Thumper also had snuffles - I'd be in a right old state.

I know they lubricate the eyes for a GA. Lets hope it's just got a bit sticky & is OK tomorrow, when he's more awake!

ETA he looks adorable on your siggy.

Thankyou so much thumps for your constant replies.

I had no idea until earlier today finding a december thread of yours... that you and thumps go through this regulary. It must be so stressfull, and never get any easier i imagine.


Simbas eye was back to normal by the next morning . Hes more alert today.

He is doing well, I was sooo excited to see him eating ' any' nuggets but in reality hes only eating a few at a time. They trimmed his inscisors also so im thinking he may be finding ot awkward to pick up small food. He had trouble earlier with a peice of carrot he couldnt 'get it'!, and flat leaves too need to be rearranged in his dish!.

He still gets excited when he hears his food rattle and races over but, gives them a sniff and walks away.

His poos continue to increase, before the gut slow down they were about the size of a pencil top and nev about 3 time the size but DARK and OVAL!

Im hopefully assuming the reason would be his veg consumption and getting back to normal, they were dark pre-slow down too.

Pellet wise I want him to eat to maintain weight but as hes happily eating hay and veg not too worried. He stuggled a little with spring greens and broccoli but i guess theyre quite tough. Happily drinking water, still cant tempt him with the supreme science recovery food but, as hes eating... still feel id rather let him lead at the moment.

Its still all early days. Only a week tomorrow the he begain to refuse pellets then veg leading to the gut slowing and teeth realisation. He seems thankfully to be managing everything quite well.

His diet now is 3 sprigs of corriander, 2 basil, 2 sml brocoli florrets, 5 spinach leaves, 1/2 leaf spring greens, 1cm carrot + top. Twice a day, hoping this is enough nutrients for him as hes still young and growing, quite a big boy too at4 1/2 lbs. Having approx 5mins a time much of hay, 3-4 times during the day but know he tends to do his muching when i put him to bed!

He is adorable thanks (arent they all ), but a very cheeky boy at times, he has me wrapped around his little paw! if hes 'told off' he circles my feet then stops between my feet to demand a nose rub!

Yes I'm one of the dental/tummy bunny mummies! I'm so very fortunate to have an exotics referral center here. A top rabbit specialist made all the difference to us, but yes I still get stressed out.
Thumper is 41/2 now, so that should encourage you.

It sounds as if Simba is recovering well. Yes, mine does most of his eating at night too. I haven't checked it out with a vet but wonder whether buns have some readjustment to do if they've had spurs for a while. It must feel odd when their teeth meet properly again. Thumps always has metacam for 3 days after a dental. He's probably a bit of a wimp, & it's to cover pain from stretching the jaw open during the dental.

Buns always have dark poops when there's a lot of green in their diet, even if it's grass & fresh tough leaves like raspberry, bramble, or hawthorn. Oval poops sometimes mean the lower gut is still a bit slow & he needs more fiber.

It's a bit pricey but you can buy dried raspberry, bramble, & strawberry leaves. Also cone flower (Echinacea). Thumper can chew dried leaves more easily & the fiber helps his gut to get moving. Everyone says that hay is the best though.

Hoping all continues to go well.