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View Full Version : Any Pharmacists/Medics/Vets About ?- Re Metronidazole



Jack's-Jane
11-01-2010, 02:31 PM
With reference to Morse who has a chronic Otitis and is on longterm Depocillin.

He was also on Metronidazole which was stopped on 31st December. Subsequently his weight plummeted. Metronidazole was re-started on 10th January and his weight is now gradually increasing. He remains on Depocillin ever 48 hours which is controlling the Otitis.

To get to the point could his weightloss once the Metronidazole was stopped be related to bacterial overgrowth in the bowel and consequent nutrient malabsorbtion as detailed about humans here

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec02/ch017/ch017b.html

Morse has not had any diarrhoea whilst on Depocillin

:?

Jack's-Jane
11-01-2010, 02:32 PM
Oooooooooops can this be moved to 'Health' please :oops:

Jack's-Jane
11-01-2010, 04:32 PM
I'll take that as a 'dont know' then !! :wave:

Hugo's There
11-01-2010, 04:39 PM
I haven't got a clue about the bacterial over growth, but I have found that bunnies fighting chronic infections especially painful ones use up a lot of energy fighting it which obviously leads to wait loss, so increasing antibiotics and therefore helping the bunny fight the infection means the body is able to recover a little bit :) Thats what seemed to happen to Eddie anyway.

But I could be talking utter poop :lol:

VikkiVet
11-01-2010, 05:45 PM
Sounds about right to me Liz :wave:

If it were bacterial overgrowth you would expect to see some GI signs - more likely bloat or stasis than diarrhoea, although thats possible too. If the abx are improving his weight gain then they must be fighting infections somewhere, as Liz says, allowing his body to use energy for body condition. If the infection is in the gut his nutrient absorption would also increase, further improving his condition.

Wouldn't say its definitive either way, but if its doing him good and doesnt have any significant side effects i'd go with it!

Jack's-Jane
11-01-2010, 06:05 PM
Sounds about right to me Liz :wave:

If it were bacterial overgrowth you would expect to see some GI signs - more likely bloat or stasis than diarrhoea, although thats possible too. If the abx are improving his weight gain then they must be fighting infections somewhere, as Liz says, allowing his body to use energy for body condition. If the infection is in the gut his nutrient absorption would also increase, further improving his condition.

Wouldn't say its definitive either way, but if its doing him good and doesnt have any significant side effects i'd go with it!

But what I meant was if the Metronidazole was addressing a 'bacterial gut infection' would that not, by definition, mean that there is/was a bacterial overgrowth in the guts. Not necessarily related to Depocillin as the extreme weightloss initially occured before Depocillin was given :?

SarahP
11-01-2010, 06:09 PM
But what I meant was if the Metronidazole was addressing a 'bacterial gut infection' would that not, by definition, mean that there is/was a bacterial overgrowth in the guts. Not necessarily related to Depocillin as the extreme weightloss initially occured before Depocillin was given :?

Could be talking nonsense here, but do they not mean that metronidazole causes overgrowth of bad gut bacteria due to killing off the good kind? :?

Jack's-Jane
11-01-2010, 06:15 PM
Could be talking nonsense here, but do they not mean that metronidazole causes overgrowth of bad gut bacteria due to killing off the good kind? :?

No, Metronidazole is used to TREAT that effect from other abx.
It is also used in the treatment of Crohns Disease

http://www.webmd.com/ibd-crohns-disease/metronidazole-for-inflammatory-bowel-disease

SarahP
11-01-2010, 06:16 PM
No, Metronidazole is used to TREAT that effect from other abx.
It is also used in the treatment of Crohns Disease

Surely it causes it too though. Don't all antibiotics? :? *brain explodes*

Jack's-Jane
11-01-2010, 06:18 PM
Surely it causes it too though. Don't all antibiotics? :? *brain explodes*

http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Clostridium-Difficile.htm :)

Hugo's There
11-01-2010, 06:20 PM
I guess the only way you could be certain is if Morse had been diagnosed with a bacterial gut infection initially.

But if not then there is a chance that yes it could be treating an undiagnosed gut infection but at the same time it is just as likely that it is helping control Morses ear infection which as Vikki says allows his body to use energy for body conditon. Given the lack of symptoms for a gut infection and the severity of his ear problems I would still suspect it is the latter :)

raine
11-01-2010, 06:31 PM
Daisy has been on M for 18 months, alongside Baytril, for her severe ear problems. Her weight increased, which was brilliant. I took it that she was eating more as the drugs were making her feel better.

VikkiVet
11-01-2010, 06:44 PM
But what I meant was if the Metronidazole was addressing a 'bacterial gut infection' would that not, by definition, mean that there is/was a bacterial overgrowth in the guts. Not necessarily related to Depocillin as the extreme weightloss initially occured before Depocillin was given :?

Possibly, but as you say Met treats bacterial overgrowth, which could be a consequence of his generally poor condition due to his ear infection. So there may be overgrowth when there is either high bacterial counts in his ears due to stress/neutropaenia/etc and/or the effects of depocillin.

You could be definitive by gut biopsy etc but thats really stressful and invasive and i dont think it would be worth it.

Jack's-Jane
11-01-2010, 06:49 PM
Possibly, but as you say Met treats bacterial overgrowth, which could be a consequence of his generally poor condition due to his ear infection. So there may be overgrowth when there is either high bacterial counts in his ears due to stress/neutropaenia/etc and/or the effects of depocillin.

You could be definitive by gut biopsy etc but thats really stressful and invasive and i dont think it would be worth it.

No, I definately wouldn't put him through that.
I am just glad that he has stabalised now that he's back on Metronidazole :)

marie_kubiak
11-01-2010, 07:47 PM
This could be a number of things:
1) Metronidazole reducing abnormal populations of Gram-ve bacteria and 'normalising' bacterial populations allowing more bacteria that help break down plant material and increase available energy
2) Reduction of bacteria that are affecting his gut wall and limiting absorption/affecting motility
3)Reduction of energy demand if infection (ears/elsewhere) is controlled more effectively
4) Elimination of secondary protozoal infection in compromised intestines
5) Metronidazole has an appetite stimulation effect in some species (not rabbits as far as I'm aware but can't see why not!)
6) Morse just likes it.

Admittedly 1-3 are most likely but I wouldn't rule out 6 ;)

Jack's-Jane
11-01-2010, 07:54 PM
This could be a number of things:
1) Metronidazole reducing abnormal populations of Gram-ve bacteria and 'normalising' bacterial populations allowing more bacteria that help break down plant material and increase available energy
2) Reduction of bacteria that are affecting his gut wall and limiting absorption/affecting motility
3)Reduction of energy demand if infection (ears/elsewhere) is controlled more effectively
4) Elimination of secondary protozoal infection in compromised intestines
5) Metronidazole has an appetite stimulation effect in some species (not rabbits as far as I'm aware but can't see why not!)
6) Morse just likes it.

Admittedly 1-3 are most likely but I wouldn't rule out 6 ;)

Thanks Marie :wave:

I was thinking along the lines of 1 but I did not explain myself very well

Hugo's There
11-01-2010, 09:40 PM
This could be a number of things:
1) Metronidazole reducing abnormal populations of Gram-ve bacteria and 'normalising' bacterial populations allowing more bacteria that help break down plant material and increase available energy
2) Reduction of bacteria that are affecting his gut wall and limiting absorption/affecting motility
3)Reduction of energy demand if infection (ears/elsewhere) is controlled more effectively
4) Elimination of secondary protozoal infection in compromised intestines
5) Metronidazole has an appetite stimulation effect in some species (not rabbits as far as I'm aware but can't see why not!)
6) Morse just likes it.

Admittedly 1-3 are most likely but I wouldn't rule out 6 ;)

At least I wasn't talking complete rubbish as my theory is number 3, makes a change :lol:

SarahP
12-01-2010, 12:23 AM
How interesting. :)

VikkiVet
12-01-2010, 12:13 PM
This could be a number of things:
1) Metronidazole reducing abnormal populations of Gram-ve bacteria and 'normalising' bacterial populations allowing more bacteria that help break down plant material and increase available energy
2) Reduction of bacteria that are affecting his gut wall and limiting absorption/affecting motility
3)Reduction of energy demand if infection (ears/elsewhere) is controlled more effectively
4) Elimination of secondary protozoal infection in compromised intestines
5) Metronidazole has an appetite stimulation effect in some species (not rabbits as far as I'm aware but can't see why not!)
6) Morse just likes it.

Admittedly 1-3 are most likely but I wouldn't rule out 6 ;)

i got 1-3, and thought of 4 but forgot to write it! Didnt know about 5 and 6, well......

Not bad for a 3rd year ay?! :lol::lol:

rodneyvet
12-01-2010, 04:43 PM
7) Metronidazole could have nothing to do with his weight loss (bloods/radiographs) and the increase in supportive care is slowly rectifying the problem

Jack's-Jane
12-01-2010, 04:59 PM
7) Metronidazole could have nothing to do with his weight loss (bloods/radiographs) and the increase in supportive care is slowly rectifying the problem

Possible but that would not explain the dramatic weightloss on stopping Metronidazole (31st Dec 2009 to 10th Jan 2010) and then weight gain once back on it ( 3.13kg on 3.1.2010, 3.28kg today ). I am weighing him every other day and the gain is slow but continuous :?

Throughout his actual food intake has remained the same..... ie ALOT !!

I guess I'll never know for sure, I am just glad to see him looking better :)