PDA

View Full Version : More sad experimenting-on-rabbits news



AnyBunny
22-10-2009, 07:23 AM
Now they're being used for research into uterus transplants.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/womb-transplants-within-two-years-1806878.html

Jack's-Jane
22-10-2009, 07:35 AM
:evil:

I would refuse treatment. Having a womb is not essential to your own life.

Sorry, but IMO its just wrong

Wigs
22-10-2009, 07:57 AM
This is awful :evil::( Poor things.

Totally agree with Jack's Jane that this is entirely unnecessary research.

Suzanne
22-10-2009, 08:12 AM
:evil:

I would refuse treatment. Having a womb is not essential to your own life.

Sorry, but IMO its just wrong

Couldn't agree more! It's not as if it's a life or death situation - just some scientist out to make a name for himself and a bit of money! This type of experiementation makes me so angry and not just because it's rabbits. I know I could poss upset a few people here but if a woman can't have a child naturally then she should look to adoption. I don't believe it's a persons right to a child - it's a priviledge to be blessed.

steph182
22-10-2009, 02:07 PM
I offically just hate the world. There's NO need in it at all

tigerangel
22-10-2009, 02:24 PM
I know I could poss upset a few people here but if a woman can't have a child naturally then she should look to adoption. I don't believe it's a persons right to a child - it's a priviledge to be blessed.

Completely agree :evil: I don't know how anyone could consider it a 'right' to bear children, we're overpopulating the planet enough as it is without surgical intervention :?

Tuckerbunnies
22-10-2009, 03:09 PM
It always seem's to be the poor rabbit that suffer's the most when it comes to experimenting.

Lillian
22-10-2009, 03:21 PM
Humans sicken me. Totally unneccessary!! :evil:

Jack's-Jane
22-10-2009, 03:30 PM
It always seem's to be the poor rabbit that suffer's the most when it comes to experimenting.

And yet hardly any research is done to get meds licenced for use on Rabbits to treat various ailments they may develope

AFAIK Baytril is the ONLY abx licensed for systemic use in Rabbits
Even Metacam isn't licenced !!

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

thumps_
22-10-2009, 06:35 PM
:evil:

I would refuse treatment. Having a womb is not essential to your own life.

Sorry, but IMO its just wrong

No apologies Jane, - I agree wholeheartedly.

Jack's-Jane
22-10-2009, 06:44 PM
The more I hear about this the more :evil: I am getting.

If a woman cant conceive naturally for whatever reason then maybe looking into adopting the thousands of kids in care would be a better way forward.
I just dont get this 'right to have a baby' view. Surely mankind's ability to procreate has to have some 'natural' regulation.
IMO if it's not meant to be, then it's not meant to be.

thumps_
22-10-2009, 07:01 PM
If a woman cant conceive naturally for whatever reason then maybe looking into adopting the thousands of kids in care would be a better way forward.
I just dont get this 'right to have a baby' view.

Exactly Jane.
I once worked in a 30 bedded gynae ward. 1 poor soul had cancer of the uterus & another cancer of the ovaries.
Of the remaining 28 patients, 50% had babies & didn't want them; & the other 50% wanted babies & couldn't have them.:roll::roll:

ilovemybuns
22-10-2009, 07:26 PM
:cry::cry::cry:

BevBunny
22-10-2009, 10:46 PM
Couldn't agree more! It's not as if it's a life or death situation - just some scientist out to make a name for himself and a bit of money! This type of experiementation makes me so angry and not just because it's rabbits. I know I could poss upset a few people here but if a woman can't have a child naturally then she should look to adoption. I don't believe it's a persons right to a child - it's a priviledge to be blessed.

I agree with what you're all saying about accepting that some people just can't have babies. I've always had a very firm view that there are many unwanted babies in the world and we should look after those before having our own. I've even suggested this to other half - he was less than impressed!!!! :?

Anyhow, I have 3 points to make about these sorts of discussions in general:

1. Scientists do not make money out of making advances in medical science, they are generally very poorly paid and don't make money from licensing a drug as this doesn't happen, its out of their hands by this point. Its the drug companies that make money, scientists seem to do it 'for the good of people' etc.

2. I am all for limiting the use of animals in research but it can't just be limited to life or death situations, without doing the research on other things such as research into antibiotics and the basic research on disease pathways etc it will never be translated into clinical research which is the 'life or death' stuff. Also, prevention is much better than cure.

3. People talk (its been said somewhere in this thread and always comes up in animal testing threads) about boycotting treatments that aren't cases of life and death cos they've been tested on animals - every single licensed drugs has to go through animal efficacy and toxicology before they can go to human trials, and then licensed for use. So to do this an individual would need to boycott all drugs - lemsips, paracetamol, antibiotics etc and also a lot of investigative treatments like MRI scans for joint issues etc etc.

Just some things to think about. I am not wanting to start a huge heated debate just balance the view slightly so please take this as it was meant.

Jaysmonkey
22-10-2009, 11:05 PM
They could just use strains of bacteria to test on when it comes to drugs. I'm doing a chemistry degree and hope to go into lab work, however only lab work that tests on bacteria instead of animals, as I never wish to support animal testing.

The actual topic of this thread I agree with being completely and utterly horrific, it isn't a life or death situation, it's quite greedy really.

Jack's-Jane
23-10-2009, 07:00 AM
They could just use strains of bacteria to test on when it comes to drugs. I'm doing a chemistry degree and hope to go into lab work, however only lab work that tests on bacteria instead of animals, as I never wish to support animal testing.

The actual topic of this thread I agree with being completely and utterly horrific, it isn't a life or death situation, it's quite greedy really.

Agree 100% and its reflective of the 'I want so I WILL have' society we live in.

I think the whole idea is obscene

Lib_n_bunny
23-10-2009, 07:06 AM
I agree with what you're all saying about accepting that some people just can't have babies. I've always had a very firm view that there are many unwanted babies in the world and we should look after those before having our own. I've even suggested this to other half - he was less than impressed!!!! :?


While I disagree with experimenting on rabbits for the purpose, and totally agree with Jane that as it's not lifesaving, it's just selfish (ie. human happiness is more important than rabbit life), I have to say I have always wanted a baby, so so badly, to carry it and raise it, and it have my eyes and OH's smile, etc. and adopting just wouldn't be the same. So I would have a very very hard time 'accepting that some people just can't have babies' if it happened to me. Bringing up someone else's baby just isn't the same. And I'm sorry if you think that's selfish, but it's the only thing I've ever wanted, and the only thing that would make me truly happy. I think it's hard for some people to understand - if you've never had that longing, that ache inside you, then you couldn't understand.

Jack's-Jane
23-10-2009, 07:23 AM
While I disagree with experimenting on rabbits for the purpose, and totally agree with Jane that as it's not lifesaving, it's just selfish (ie. human happiness is more important than rabbit life), I have to say I have always wanted a baby, so so badly, to carry it and raise it, and it have my eyes and OH's smile, etc. and adopting just wouldn't be the same. So I would have a very very hard time 'accepting that some people just can't have babies' if it happened to me. Bringing up someone else's baby just isn't the same. And I'm sorry if you think that's selfish, but it's the only thing I've ever wanted, and the only thing that would make me truly happy. I think it's hard for some people to understand - if you've never had that longing, that ache inside you, then you couldn't understand.

I am sure that if someone longs for a baby of their own (although I admit I just cannot identify with that feeling what-so-ever) then I am sure that the inability to have one would be very hard to accept. But I still believe that there has to be a line that isnt crossed when it comes to Fertility Treatments. The idea of a womb transplant based on research involving animal experiments is most definately crossing the line of being ethical.

I struggle to live with the idea that I have to take medication that was definately tested on animals. But to use a proceedure that is not life saving but just fulfilling a want is something I personally think is wrong.

breeze
23-10-2009, 09:20 AM
before i start please dont shoot me down for this its just my view.i feel that if a woman cannot conceive a child due to different reasons then i feel that a womb transplant would be ok.the longing for your own child is something amazing that an adoptive child cannot fill.ok i dont agree with the animal testing but if theres means and ways to allow a woman to be a mother then i think that its fine.

Lib_n_bunny
23-10-2009, 09:24 AM
I am sure that if someone longs for a baby of their own (although I admit I just cannot identify with that feeling what-so-ever) then I am sure that the inability to have one would be very hard to accept. But I still believe that there has to be a line that isnt crossed when it comes to Fertility Treatments. The idea of a womb transplant based on research involving animal experiments is most definately crossing the line of being ethical.

I struggle to live with the idea that I have to take medication that was definately tested on animals. But to use a proceedure that is not life saving but just fulfilling a want is something I personally think is wrong.

Just to clarify Jane, I completely agree with you - I wouldn't condone experimenting on animals for the purpose. I was simply disagreeing with BevBunny that people who can't conceive should just accept it and adopt, because it's not the same at all.

ETA: It's specifically a baby I long for, not just a child, and it's almost impossible to adopt a baby. If I knew I was never going to have a baby in my life, even one that wasn't genetically mine, I don't think I could carry on. I'd see no point in life.

Jack's-Jane
23-10-2009, 10:11 AM
Just to clarify Jane, I completely agree with you - I wouldn't condone experimenting on animals for the purpose. I was simply disagreeing with BevBunny that people who can't conceive should just accept it and adopt, because it's not the same at all.

ETA: It's specifically a baby I long for, not just a child, and it's almost impossible to adopt a baby. If I knew I was never going to have a baby in my life, even one that wasn't genetically mine, I don't think I could carry on. I'd see no point in life.

Isn't it amazing how very different women can be. For me I have never had even a hint of a desire to have a baby so getting into the mindset of how desperate some women must feel is impossible for me. I accept that that longing is there for them but to understand it, nope, I cant.

As it happens I was diagnosed as being infertile at the age of 24. I was even offered councelling to help me 'come to terms' with it. But I really was not in the least bit bothered. Perhaps its just another weirdness about me :?

Angie65
23-10-2009, 10:57 AM
Agree 100% and its reflective of the 'I want so I WILL have' society we live in.

I think the whole idea is obscene

I agree with you all 1000%. Although if they need a womb donor, they can have mine. Been trying to get rid of it for years:roll::lol:

Angie65
23-10-2009, 11:02 AM
While I disagree with experimenting on rabbits for the purpose, and totally agree with Jane that as it's not lifesaving, it's just selfish (ie. human happiness is more important than rabbit life), I have to say I have always wanted a baby, so so badly, to carry it and raise it, and it have my eyes and OH's smile, etc. and adopting just wouldn't be the same. So I would have a very very hard time 'accepting that some people just can't have babies' if it happened to me. Bringing up someone else's baby just isn't the same. And I'm sorry if you think that's selfish, but it's the only thing I've ever wanted, and the only thing that would make me truly happy. I think it's hard for some people to understand - if you've never had that longing, that ache inside you, then you couldn't understand.

We had a thread on this before - ( a locked one I think:lol:) & one thing pointed out that it wouldn't be great for an adopted kid to think "it wasn't the same" - they were a second option. Realistically I think an adopted kid could potentially be loved MORE than a lot of kids spat out cos two people got drunk. I mean - an adopted kid involves work just to come into being.

That said - I have previously been an egg donor, so don't batter me:lol:

BevBunny
23-10-2009, 12:59 PM
Isn't it amazing how very different women can be. For me I have never had even a hint of a desire to have a baby so getting into the mindset of how desperate some women must feel is impossible for me. I accept that that longing is there for them but to understand it, nope, I can't.

Thats the first thing that struck me when I was reading through the last part of this thread. I am 36, I don't have a baby, cos its never felt like the right time and if I don't hurry up I'll start to feel that I'm too old to have one and its not fair on the child - and that doesn't bother me in the slightest. But over the last 5 years or so I've seen so many of my friends absolutely desperate to conceive and utterly obsesssive about it - and like you I just can't comprehend it. I wonder why, its obviously not a choice that we make, I'm guessing it has to be something to do with hormones, or perhaps our up bringing? I'll have a dig around, there must be some population cohort studies that have included this.

lildebs
23-10-2009, 01:14 PM
I think this could be a huge debate...I don't like animal testing BUT I have a little lad born with a chromosome disorder making his life totally dependant on others so I ask myself in terms of research how can scientist understand such causes/treatments of such disabling disabilities without having to experiment...I do know that mice are researched for much needed info..also my boys brain scan shows calcification in the brain, and we're in the process of waiting for 'why' it's there...I guess in terms of health etc is it acceptable because I would give anything for my boy to live a normal life and also to understand the Genetics involved?????? :roll::roll:

Angie65
23-10-2009, 01:22 PM
I think this could be a huge debate...I don't like animal testing BUT I have a little lad born with a chromosome disorder making his life totally dependant on others so I ask myself in terms of research how can scientist understand such causes/treatments of such disabling disabilities without having to experiment...I do know that mice are researched for much needed info..also my boys brain scan shows calcification in the brain, and we're in the process of waiting for 'why' it's there...I guess in terms of health etc is it acceptable because I would give anything for my boy to live a normal life and also to understand the Genetics involved?????? :roll::roll:

I think it's a tough debate - I'm apparently against all testing on animals (& vegan), but I have asthma & don't think twice about fixing that when I need to puff on my inhaler. If I had a serious illness, I would want survival at (pretty much) any cost. But like other people said ^^ having a child isn't a necessicity

BevBunny
23-10-2009, 01:32 PM
For me its the difference between significant health benefits (and I include all different levels such as antibiotics for tonsilitis, ventolins for asthma, understanding birth defects, treatment for degenerative brain disorders, diagnosis and intervention in cancer patience etc etc) and 'nice to have' medical treatments (such as elective plastic surgery, fertility treatment etc).

Obviously the line in the middle is blurred, what someone would see as a nice to have, would be viewed by others as necessity. For example I know of cases where someone had has a breast reduction on the NHS cos she was so unhappy that she was suicidal. where does this fit? (I know someone will be thinking that perfecting breast operation technique wouldn't have involved animal testing - all surgical procedures will have done, simply cos of the anaesthetics and general techniques used)

BevBunny
23-10-2009, 01:34 PM
I just have to say something - I think this is a really interesting thread, and I think we are showing that people can have good debate on RU without the need to personally attack people and get the threads locked like we have seen so many times recently.:)

Angie65
23-10-2009, 01:37 PM
I just have to say something - I think this is a really interesting thread, and I think we are showing that people can have good debate on RU without the need to personally attack people and get the threads locked like we have seen so many times recently.:)

Oh shut up.:roll:;):lol:

Actually can't argue with you cos I agree with your prev post, but still!

lildebs
23-10-2009, 01:37 PM
I suppose it goes on everyone's personal circumstances, I personally wouldn't judge anybody, because I'm not in their shoes so to have that opinion, I also feel for those that can't conceive it must be awful to want something so badly, and bringing life into the world is such a special thing, maybe not a neccessaty for some but for others it will be a big hole in their life. My sister and OH were told they wouldn't have children it was heart breaking, but somehow it happened and they have a little girl now.

lildebs
23-10-2009, 01:40 PM
Oh shut up.:roll:;):lol:

Actually can't argue with you cos I agree with your prev post, but still!

:lol::lol::lol:

Samantha
23-10-2009, 01:56 PM
Well personally I feel for fertility it is still on the lines of okay. I think you have to have the understanding of how desperate a person must feel to want their own baby so much.

I had my first daughter and she was born with numerous health problems, I had no idea when I was carrying her anything was wrong. Once she finally left hospital I couldn't get it out of my head wanting another child, it took over my whole world and made me so depressed. It was like wanting the child I felt I'd lost with my daughter being born differently. I know its hard to explain it as I still love her so much and this is extremely shortened down to how badly it took over my life.

Once we had the all clear for our genetic tests we did have another baby who despite being born 11 weeks early hasn't had health problems and has helped me to come to terms with having a child with disabilities.

I read on another thread the other day about how a 70 stone man was being helped to consume enormous meals from the chippy and will need gastric band surgery to correct him. A lot could sympathise with him but I'm guessing and I don't know for certain that the gastric band was probably tested on animals first.

I don't want this to be turned into an arguement and me shot down for saying all this but unless you understand the need and want for your own child then it is going to be hard to accept something like this but I do feel you need to try to have more understanding for anyone in this awful situation.

thumps_
23-10-2009, 01:56 PM
I think this could be a huge debate...I don't like animal testing BUT I have a little lad born with a chromosome disorder making his life totally dependant on others so I ask myself in terms of research how can scientist understand such causes/treatments of such disabling disabilities without having to experiment...I do know that mice are researched for much needed info..also my boys brain scan shows calcification in the brain, and we're in the process of waiting for 'why' it's there...I guess in terms of health etc is it acceptable because I would give anything for my boy to live a normal life and also to understand the Genetics involved?????? :roll::roll:

I feel for you so much in this situation. In fact our understanding of the human genome has increased so much, that we need fewer animal experiments.I see it as different to the topic of the thread.

This thread is about animal experimentation for a non - life threatening condition, in humans. Even should womb transplants become technically feasible, there will be all the other problems of any other organ transplant.
There will be problems getting enough healthy donors, tissue matching, immunosupression of the recipient etc. etc. I just see it as a "non-starter", & therefore a senseless infliction of suffering on the animals used.

Angie65
23-10-2009, 02:14 PM
Well personally I feel for fertility it is still on the lines of okay. I think you have to have the understanding of how desperate a person must feel to want their own baby so much.

I had my first daughter and she was born with numerous health problems, I had no idea when I was carrying her anything was wrong. Once she finally left hospital I couldn't get it out of my head wanting another child, it took over my whole world and made me so depressed. It was like wanting the child I felt I'd lost with my daughter being born differently. I know its hard to explain it as I still love her so much and this is extremely shortened down to how badly it took over my life.

Once we had the all clear for our genetic tests we did have another baby who despite being born 11 weeks early hasn't had health problems and has helped me to come to terms with having a child with disabilities.

I read on another thread the other day about how a 70 stone man was being helped to consume enormous meals from the chippy and will need gastric band surgery to correct him. A lot could sympathise with him but I'm guessing and I don't know for certain that the gastric band was probably tested on animals first.

I don't want this to be turned into an arguement and me shot down for saying all this but unless you understand the need and want for your own child then it is going to be hard to accept something like this but I do feel you need to try to have more understanding for anyone in this awful situation.

but he will die if he doesn't get help. Not having a child doesn't cause death. Although, someone may feel a "need", it's not a right, it's something to enhance your life not to ensure you keep it:D

Flutterby81
23-10-2009, 02:14 PM
Hi :wave: have been debating whether to post or not as its quite an emotional issue.

We have been told we can't have children after 10m/c's - 2 of which happened this year. We and the doctors have finally admitted defeat. We still haven't come to terms with this but are trying are best to be positive.

We would love a baby but not at the expense of any life -animal or human.

This is not something we would even consider no matter how desperate we feel.

We may adopt one day, but if we can't or decide its not for us then i will be upset but i married my O/H for him not to have children-luckly he feels the same.

I agree that its not a god given right to expect a child- thats why all the poor children whose birth parents couldn't cope can find a family.

lildebs
23-10-2009, 02:23 PM
Well personally I feel for fertility it is still on the lines of okay. I think you have to have the understanding of how desperate a person must feel to want their own baby so much.

I had my first daughter and she was born with numerous health problems, I had no idea when I was carrying her anything was wrong. Once she finally left hospital I couldn't get it out of my head wanting another child, it took over my whole world and made me so depressed. It was like wanting the child I felt I'd lost with my daughter being born differently. I know its hard to explain it as I still love her so much and this is extremely shortened down to how badly it took over my life.

Once we had the all clear for our genetic tests we did have another baby who despite being born 11 weeks early hasn't had health problems and has helped me to come to terms with having a child with disabilities.

I read on another thread the other day about how a 70 stone man was being helped to consume enormous meals from the chippy and will need gastric band surgery to correct him. A lot could sympathise with him but I'm guessing and I don't know for certain that the gastric band was probably tested on animals first.

I don't want this to be turned into an arguement and me shot down for saying all this but unless you understand the need and want for your own child then it is going to be hard to accept something like this but I do feel you need to try to have more understanding for anyone in this awful situation.

:wave: I hear you Samantha...and can understand where you're coming from and given that your first child has SN why you would long for another child, I'm the opposite way my SN child is my youngest, my eldest no problems...I admire you for wanting another child because no way could I have managed another..too exhausted..but I consider my family complete now.
I often say having a child with a disability is living in a different world, and like you say that can't be understood unless you live in that situation because words can never describe it.

Yes Thumps you're right ...prob just a bit off topic :roll:

Samantha
23-10-2009, 02:25 PM
but he will die if he doesn't get help. Not having a child doesn't cause death. Although, someone may feel a "need", it's not a right, it's something to enhance your life not to ensure you keep it:D

But he has been allowed to get into that state and now needs "fixing" to save his life. It's like alcoholics needing to have liver transplants I don't agree with that but it happens even if they've been clear for so many months at the end of the day they got themselves into that situation. I suffer from extreme depression at times but I don't hit the bottle, I know we all cope differently though and for that reason the way we are all different there are some people who desperately want a baby of their own.

If the only way to have their own baby is through these animal experiments that are also done to help people who get themselves into these life threatening situations then why not? The people wanting their own baby haven't done anything to cause themselves infertility it sadly just happens and it can ruin some peoples lives not having their own child. Some people never get over it. I know as I have an aunty who I never see as it pains her too much she shut herself off from the world with not being able to have a child of her own :(

Samantha
23-10-2009, 02:30 PM
:wave: I hear you Samantha...and can understand where you're coming from and given that your first child has SN why you would long for another child, I'm the opposite way my SN child is my youngest, my eldest no problems...I admire you for wanting another child because no way could I have managed another..too exhausted..but I consider my family complete now.
I often say having a child with a disability is living in a different world, and like you say that can't be understood unless you live in that situation because words can never describe it.

Yes Thumps you're right ...prob just a bit off topic :roll:

My family is definetely complete now. It's hard work having two especially when one has disabilities but I love them both so much. Definetely no more though so if somebody wants my womb to stop all these awful period pains I get they're welcome to it :D

Angie65
23-10-2009, 03:16 PM
But he has been allowed to get into that state and now needs "fixing" to save his life. It's like alcoholics needing to have liver transplants I don't agree with that but it happens even if they've been clear for so many months at the end of the day they got themselves into that situation. I suffer from extreme depression at times but I don't hit the bottle, I know we all cope differently though and for that reason the way we are all different there are some people who desperately want a baby of their own.

If the only way to have their own baby is through these animal experiments that are also done to help people who get themselves into these life threatening situations then why not? The people wanting their own baby haven't done anything to cause themselves infertility it sadly just happens and it can ruin some peoples lives not having their own child. Some people never get over it. I know as I have an aunty who I never see as it pains her too much she shut herself off from the world with not being able to have a child of her own :(


That's not always true - my own fertility issues were caused by me. (It's fine, I don't want kids, I'm strictly anti breeding:oops:)

I'm glad things worked out for you though:D - it is a tough debate - if you start refusing treatment for potential parents/smokers/obese people - where do you draw the line. My head stitches were self inflicted (pole dancing), my rabbit artery issue was self inflicted (I didn't run fast enough) & I fully intend to have botox shortly.

Lib_n_bunny
23-10-2009, 05:28 PM
But he has been allowed to get into that state and now needs "fixing" to save his life. It's like alcoholics needing to have liver transplants I don't agree with that but it happens even if they've been clear for so many months at the end of the day they got themselves into that situation. I suffer from extreme depression at times but I don't hit the bottle, I know we all cope differently though and for that reason the way we are all different there are some people who desperately want a baby of their own.


I'm with you 100% on that one. My dad is an alcoholic, even though he's been dry 3 years now, but I think he has pickled his own liver, whereas other people have horrible medical conditions that aren't their fault, why should they miss out on a liver transplant so that my dad could get one when he's done it to himself.

lildebs
23-10-2009, 05:55 PM
Same would go for my mum who has Enphasemia and still smoking, she's been refused oxygen at home...and I've actually had to say to her why would they give you the oxygen when someone else can have it who not self inflicting the breathlessness...very tough debate